Identity crisis

[Expat]

Just for fun, I'll illustrate how socionics functional typing can work :

+ yeah, I get overly obsessive about details, when I have the chance.
+ yeah, I plan a lot. I even make a small silent plan to plan. Most things that I do have been decided long before. Right now I'm living a general plan that I made 3 moths ago (if I do things in that order, I will have the highest chance of avoiding a nervous breakdown and finishing all in time.) I have planned my studies over and over again.

In MBTI, that would merely indicate that she's got J inclinations -- but in socionics, that is an indication of weak , but not as PoLR as in ESTjs and ESFjs, but precisely as 5th function as in ISTjs and ISFjs.

Pretty strong assumption.

Precisely, but it makes sense because Kristiina also came up with ENTj/INTp in rmcnew's test -- so what it indicates is that when taking a test, Kristiina has a self-perception of being very logical and with strong , but her self-description above suggests weak - - so whichever is the "truth", there is already a problem of self-perception.

And socionics ISFjs, especially sensory subtypes, also have a self-perception of being logical, hence they might test as T.

[Expat]

Sorry, I trust test results more than people's interpretations of descriptions.

Yes, if you assume that people's self-perceptions are correct.

[Eidos]

Yes, if you assume that people's self-perceptions are correct.

There is a margin of error but with such a high score they would have to have a serious problem.

[Expat]

There is a margin of error but with such a high score they would have to have a serious problem.

I'm not sure about that.

Anyway, perhaps ISTj is the answer then *shrugs*

[Eidos]

There is a margin of error but with such a high score they would have to have a serious problem.

I'm not sure about that.

Anyway, perhaps ISTj is the answer then *shrugs*

Or she is an ISFJ with a serious problem

[Kristiina]

My MBTI results when I was having my brief ISTj phase. Before that I only got one result: INTJ! Both N and T were really strong.

INTJ
Tulemus:
E = 12 I = 27
S = 10 N = 29
T = 30 F = 9
J = 23 P = 16

ISTJ
Strength of the preferences %
Introverted 56
Sensing 12
Thinking 12
Judging 11

ENTJ
Test Results: Extrovert: 12%, intuitive: 24%, Thinking: 3%, Judging: 27%

ISTP
Introverted (I) 51.52% Extroverted (E) 48.48%
Sensing (S) 51.35% Intuitive (N) 48.65%
Thinking (T) 55.88% Feeling (F) 44.12%
Perceiving (P) 54.17% Judging (J) 45.83%

ISTJ
Introverted (I) 62.5% Extroverted (E) 37.5%
Sensing (S) 54.17% Intuitive (N) 45.83%
Thinking (T) 83.33% Feeling (F) 16.67%
Judging (J) 54.17% Perceiving (P) 45.83%

ISTP
Introverted (I) 52.78% Extroverted (E) 47.22%
Sensing (S) 52.5% Intuitive (N) 47.5%
Thinking (T) 71.43% Feeling (F) 28.57%
Perceiving (P) 50% Judging (J) 50%

INTJ
Tulemus:
E = 11 I = 28
S = 19 N = 20
T = 25 F = 14
J = 29 P = 10

[Eidos]

Could you complete this test:

http://www.socionicstypeassistant.com/stc/home.html

And give us the link to your results?

[FDG]

Yep, do that Kristiina.

Eidos, I think that the T/F results are not as strong as she said previously, even if it's true that she NEVER scored F. Let's wait for the new test.

[Kristiina]

Could you complete this test:

http://www.socionicstypeassistant.com/stc/home.html

And give us the link to your results?

No way! I have tried to do it like, ummm... 3 times. But I find it difficult and therefore unreliable. I'm not a native speaker. I usually can handle it, I usually don't have problems with English, but this test has words that need to be in context for me. And reading all the explanations of the words seemed such a bad idea, because the real meaning of the words can't be summed up in one sentence. And that would make it unreliable.

[Kristiina]

okay, I'll get Erkki to help me. He speaks English well enough to be mistaken for a native speaker.
Also, he works in English (writes technical documents) and his vocabulary is enormous.

[Eidos]

Could you complete this test:

http://www.socionicstypeassistant.com/stc/home.html

And give us the link to your results?

No way! I have tried to do it like, ummm... 3 times. But I find it difficult and therefore unreliable. I'm not a native speaker. I usually can handle it, I usually don't have problems with English, but this test has words that need to be in context for me. And reading all the explanations of the words seemed such a bad idea, because the real meaning of the words can't be summed up in one sentence. And that would make it unreliable.

Well, if you're not ready to do what you're asked to do, bye and good luck in finding your type.

[Kristiina]

No! I can't do it right now. I tried. I realized my self-perception it compromised and I actually preferred studying to doing that test. And studying means that I actually started reading a text which consists of only foreign words and conjunctions. And the text isn't properly edited so it's actually full of grammar mistakes, which makes it near impossible to understand because of the huge sentences.

Well. I'm stressed. And I think that I'm not and ISFj who is "trying to look like" an ENTj, eg, totally twisted ISFj, with serious delusions that have lasted for years. I have never been a logical person, I really try to use my role function and I could only wish I knew anything about .... Does it really seem plausible? Especially when you look at the different results.

I'm more likely an ENTj who is trying to hide her general frustration with the world by acting like an ISFj.

I remind you:
1. people may start to act like their duals when they get no dual action. I spend my days with an INTp and occasionally also ENFj.
2. People start behaving differently under strong continuous stress. It's my last semester in university.

[Expat]

I'm more likely an ENTj who is trying to hide her general frustration with the world by acting like an ISFj.
.

That's also possible.

[XoX]

IF she accurately took that test

Pretty strong assumption.

80% something... Come on.

Sorry, I trust test results more than people's interpretations of descriptions.

I'm not sure if I've ever scored F in any test before people here started to convince me I'm actually F. And I have done the socionics type assistant too. When I did it, it gave me INTx with external p and internal j type. And my first MBTI result was INTJ.

Edit: I did it again...this time I got ENTx and after deciding question ENTp. Last time it was INTx and after deciding question INTp. This test keeps suggesting some of ENTp, ENTj, INTp, INTj more probably ENTp or INTp. Damn...is this reliable or not

[Kristiina]

results of the type assistant.
ESTj on both normal and revised.

S/N is probably incorrect :wink:

[Kristiina]

But I do agree that she's not ENTj or INTj.

Why? Because I'm cheerful and talkative? Happy/perky however you could call it.

+ yeah, I get overly obsessive about details, when I have the chance.
+ yeah, I plan a lot. I even make a small silent plan to plan. Most things that I do have been decided long before. Right now I'm living a general plan that I made 3 moths ago (if I do things in that order, I will have the highest chance of avoiding a nervous breakdown and finishing all in time.) I have planned my studies over and over again.

Kristiina, based just on the above, I'd have said ISFj, too.

But what about based on everything you know about me?

PS! I'm wondering if I have a false self-perception of being a very organized methodical planner. :wink: That would make Expats quote obsolete, because it assumes that my perception of having a strong is false.

[XoX]

Hmm...we are stuck...let's change the dynamics and make a whole new quess...I read your functional analysis...here is my first impression...

Defining features:
Se <- clearly important and respected
Ti <- you seem to like this too and feel it is important
Fe <- you have this at least to some extent (making this thread is example of it)
Ne (maybe) <- a bit vague explanation but I guess you sort of like people with Ne. I couldn't figure out what your own Ne capabilities are.

Not defining really:
Ni (you say you really have no conception of time which is what Ni is about)

Not respected at all:
Fi

Answers I didn't get:
Te -> You only talk about having goals which can or cannot be related to Te. From what I see what you think is Te is somehow more related to Se. You have ambitions and want to be admired etc...Se behavior.

Socionics.com result:
ESTj

You said assistant missed one letter but I'm not sure if it is the S/N...

I thought maybe it is the first letter making you ISTj...but I guess you are not ISTj judging from how you describe them...

Maybe the third letter making you ESFj...not impossible but I doubt.

So I say it is the last letter making you ESTp. SeTi with Ne role function, Fe hidden agenda (to be loved), Ni dual seeking function (hence you like INTps and ENTjs) and Fi PoLR (you say Fi has no use it only keeps people from achieving what they can which seems like a PoLR to me...).

So my guess is you are ESTp possibly logical subtype. And you are trying to be your benefactor ENTj (not an unusual scenario).

How about that? At least a change in dynamics. I hate stagnancy

[Expat]

But what about based on everything you know about me?

I see why FDG thinks you're ISFj, and that's a possibility; I also remember your ENTj/INTp results in McNew's test. I'm inclined to go for ISTj.

A suggestion -- take a look at the other groups:

Are you taciturn or narrator?
Is your perceiving of time flow static or dynamic?
Are you an aggressor, victim, infantile or careful?

Actually if the choice is between ENTj or ISFj, all of the above should be of help.

[Kristiina]

XoX, I agree that stagnation sucks. :wink: I like your analysis, but ESTp ( ) seems kinda wrong. I don't think I have any Se.

Are you taciturn or narrator?
Is your perceiving of time flow static or dynamic?
Are you an aggressor, victim, infantile or careful?

Taciturn, I think. I like the kind of dynamic conversation. And I get aggravated when a narrator drifts away from the main subject and starts with meaningless talk that goes on and on and on....

I think I perceive time flow as static, but I'm not sure at all. I really don't know.

I'm most like a victim. The aggressors would also be credible, because I can act like that, depending on the circumstances. The other two are really wrong. :wink: If anyone tried to baby-talk me into having sex, I'd kick his ass. Could anyone think of a better turn-off?...

[XoX]

I don't think I have any Se.
...
If anyone tried to baby-talk me into having sex, I'd kick his ass.

Now there is some Se for you!!! But I give up At least until I figure out a new case for some type

[Kristiina]

I don't think I have any Se.
...
If anyone tried to baby-talk me into having sex, I'd kick his ass.

Now there is some Se for you!!! But I give up At least until I figure out a new case for some type

lol
I think I'll give up pretty soon. Then I'll just go with the default, which is ENTj at this point. My intuition is getting in the way. I wouldn't believe anyone who told me I was really ESTj... or any other type whom I've met. I can't even explain it, but I just know that I'm not ISTp, ISTj, ESTj, ENFj, any SF.

I'm way too determined, straightforward and ambitious to be an ISFj. The ISFj I know wants to have babies and wants to be a good father, he is a hard worker and is pretty ambitious, but he goes step-by step. I have known for the last 3 years that I will be a successful scientist, no matter what! I won't stop, I won't give up. I'm not sure when I'll have my children, but I don't want to end up with mediocre life or mediocre list of accomplishments.

[Expat]

Taciturn, I think. I like the kind of dynamic conversation. And I get aggravated when a narrator drifts away from the main subject and starts with meaningless talk that goes on and on and on....

I think I perceive time flow as static, but I'm not sure at all. I really don't know.

I'm most like a victim. The aggressors would also be credible, because I can act like that, depending on the circumstances. The other two are really wrong. :wink: If anyone tried to baby-talk me into having sex, I'd kick his ass. Could anyone think of a better turn-off?...

Statics are either Aggressors or Infantile, not Victims.

Your own description of your behavior, not only here, suggests Aggressor.

Taciturn + Static + Aggressor = ESFp or ISFj

I'm way too determined, straightforward and ambitious to be an ISFj. The ISFj I know wants to have babies and wants to be a good father, he is a hard worker and is pretty ambitious, but he goes step-by step. I have known for the last 3 years that I will be a successful scientist, no matter what! I won't stop, I won't give up. I'm not sure when I'll have my children, but I don't want to end up with mediocre life or mediocre list of accomplishments

You have a wrong image of ISFjs.

My ISFj ethical subtype male friend - I have never lost touch with him even after 13 years with very big geographical distance - did his PhD in chemical engineering and rose to a full tenured professor before he was 40. He left all others in his deparment in the dust.

My ISFj sensory subtype ex gf is a very successful journalist. In fact, she could have written the paragraph you wrote and I just quoted

I also think that Lionel Jospin, former French prime minister, is an ISFj.

[XoX]

Kristiina you probably have to figure out your type based on your real life experiences. It is hard to know how well the picture people here get from you matches the real you. You don't give a typical ENTj feeling but ENTjs come in different forms. I mean who knows, I might be ISTp in the end. Right now I just have troubles placing myself among the ISTps here or understanding how the supposedly strong Si manifests in me. I don't think my forum interaction can give me much more information on myself than it already has. Maybe same is true in your case.

Try to figure out your relations with real life INTp and ENFj. What is the most important thing you give to them, want from them and eventually get from them etc. Where do you have most problems in your interactions, what is best in your interactions. Oh and yes what would you most need from your dual and what would you hate in them. ENTjs, INTjs, ISTj, ISFjs, ESTps, ... all want different things from their duals (at least in theory). Sorting out what you want and don't want from other people is very useful.

Anyways I wish you best future in your type search and in fulfilling your dreams I'm sure both will eventually work out fine. I'm taking an Easter break from the forum now. See you laters

[Kristiina]

Now I have reached the conclusion (again!). I'm definitely ENTj, Ni-subtype.

The more I find out about the functions in the ENTj A model context, the more I understand myself, socionics and the functions. Links are to different posts I have written recently.

PoLR - I do get frustrated when I'm feeling uncomfortable, but that's not the main thing about PoLR. I'm very sensitive to anything that would prove my self-perception wrong. I see myself as an abstract being ( -Creative), who has a certain role in life. And my self-image places me in my world in a way that everything else is influenced. So when my self-perception is proven wrong, it influences everything and it makes me very unsure of myself.

creative - My thinking goes from the past to the future, but barely even touches the present. I just wrote about it today, just just click on the link to find out more.

Hidden agenda - I'm not sure if I understand it correctly, but I think it's my ambition. I want to be successful and admired. This is the thing I want the most. It would be nice to be loved or to have strong belief in something, but I NEED to be successful! This is my life goal! If I don't reach that goal, my life has no meaning. My objective success is how I measure my worth as a human being. If that isn't my hidden agenda, then I don't know what is.

These were the 3 very important interpretations of functions according to the ENTj A model. I think these 3 should be enough.

Some things that were interpreted the wrong way and gave others the impression that I'm ISFj.
Planning too much - I couldn't sleep one night and I figured it out. There are in fact several ways to plan things. ISFjs need a plan, I realized that I can't help it - I just plan my future, without giving it much consideration. I don't really make a plan, my Ni just imagines what I will do. I really don't think about it much, but I usually know what I'm doing next and how, because I have already lived it through. I just need to relive it in the physical world.
I plan on the larger scale. If I'm going to be successful, I have to play my cards right! I said in some post some time ago, that I just need the plan to avoid wasting time. And I found this:

The ENTj works very fast. He loves to be able to efficiently execute tasks. He likes to plan his work in advance so he can think about the best possible course of action.

[Kristiina]

Statics are either Aggressors or Infantile, not Victims.

Your own description of your behavior, not only here, suggests Aggressor.

I'm not very sure that I'm a static. My memory-flashes do move (like video clips), but I some things resembled the static description. And there is nothing to indicate that statics can't be victims, because the correlations are never 100%, and I might be the exception.

It was also said somewhere that people want to imagine ENTjs as aggressors, because they seem to act that way if you don't know them very well. Besides, my fantasies are not very aggressor-like. :wink:

[Jimbean]

As far as static vs dynamic, I think you could be either one at anytime, but like anything else, you tend to focus on one or the other.

[Gilly]

Ne is not her PoLR. That's all I'm going to say.

[Kristiina]

http://www.socioniko.net/en/articles/lytovs-intro3.html

for their very accurate manner of clothing, for the order that reigns in their apartments, at their workplaces, for their thrifty manner of life. However, they are internally mobilized, as if waiting for a war or an emergency situation, they tend to split the mankind into “our people” and the rest, they are much conservative in their views. And communicating with them at close distance, you will quickly understand that they do not tolerate objections, even though they look so calm and moderate.

This is not me. Especially the parts that are red! However you would look at me, I don't have Se as my creative function!

But for some peculiar reason I have such a weird obsession with some aspects of Se. Ummm... I'm just going to go with my instincts here, but isn't that what Hidden agenda is all about?! Like WTF, I'm SO not Se-type.

EDIT:
as first function:

However, being so attentive to people's relations, they do not like, even more, they are afraid of “intellectual initiative”, do not like arguing, because it can “break” or just significantly change relations with other people.

Yeah, right! Can you really see that in me? I can't. I'll argue as much as necessary, and even more, because arguing is fun and mind-stimulating!

In other words: No ISFj-talk!

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[FDG]

In other words: No ISFj-talk!

Your big, badass only feeds my hidden agenda, you won't scare me away!

[Kristiina]

In other words: No ISFj-talk!

Your big, badass only feeds my hidden agenda, you won't scare me away!

I'm starting to think that is not your hidden agenda, but in stead your PoLR, since you don't seem to know anything about it.
That makes you a XiNe. Since you have this idea that you are so sure of, even though you can't really prove it, I'd say you're more likely Ti than Fi.
That would make you a TiNe, in other words an INTj. And it makes sense if you look at all the INTjs in all the "there is a correlation between MBTI and socionics" threads. The blind obsession that they are right although all evidence points to the contraire. :wink: Are you sure you haven't mistyped yourself? Really sure?

[FDG]

In other words: No ISFj-talk!

Your big, badass only feeds my hidden agenda, you won't scare me away!

I'm starting to think that is not your hidden agenda, but in stead your PoLR, since you don't seem to know anything about it.
That makes you a XiNe. Since you have this idea that you are so sure of, even though you can't really prove it, I'd say you're more likely Ti than Fi.
That would make you a TiNe, in other words an INTj. And it makes sense if you look at all the INTjs in all the "there is a correlation between MBTI and socionics" threads. The blind obsession that they are right although all evidence points to the contraire. :wink: Are you sure you haven't mistyped yourself? Really sure?

No, INTj is a possibility. Besides, I never partecipated in those threads. Anyway, I could revert your assertion and say that you don't know anything about it, since you can't recognize it in yourself

[Kristiina]

In other words: No ISFj-talk!

Your big, badass only feeds my hidden agenda, you won't scare me away!

I'm starting to think that is not your hidden agenda, but in stead your PoLR, since you don't seem to know anything about it.
That makes you a XiNe. Since you have this idea that you are so sure of, even though you can't really prove it, I'd say you're more likely Ti than Fi.
That would make you a TiNe, in other words an INTj. And it makes sense if you look at all the INTjs in all the "there is a correlation between MBTI and socionics" threads. The blind obsession that they are right although all evidence points to the contraire. :wink: Are you sure you haven't mistyped yourself? Really sure?

No, INTj is a possibility. Besides, I never partecipated in those threads. Anyway, I could revert your assertion and say that you don't know anything about it, since you can't recognize it in yourself

Well, the general point remains. I don't know about the online-me, but IRL I don't resemble an ISFj one bit. There is only the occasional detail-oriented spring cleaning, but that's just about it. There are moments when I feel that I don't want to see the big picture and just get this weird Adrian Monk moment. But that is not who I normally am. The socion.info ENTj description is pretty damn close to who I am.

I am willing to say that I might act very ISFj online, I don't know. I think I act somewhat SF, when I'm with people I like. When I want to seem outgoing, positive and friendly. No one wants to have a friend who just bluntly says how other people should live their lives. I do that a lot, but I'm trying to act differently.

Still, IRL, I'm as far from an ISFj as a person could be. Well... ISFp would be even less me, because I'm definitely a rational person when it comes to the j/p distinction.

[Eidos]

ENTj?!?! No. Way. Ever. You're deluding yourself. You WANT to be ENTj, but there is no way you are. Get real!

The socion.info ENTj description is pretty damn close to who I am.

I'm the one who wrote it and I'm describing myself and other ENTj's I know. However, you and I are so different it's not funny.

And BTW FDG is ENTj.

[Kristiina]

ENTj?!?! No. Way. Ever. You're deluding yourself. You WANT to be ENTj, but there is no way you are. Get real!

The socion.info ENTj description is pretty damn close to who I am.

I'm the one who wrote it and I'm describing myself and other ENTj's I know. However, you and I are so different it's not funny.

And BTW FDG is ENTj.

I have a theory that I'm so different because I'm female and I'm a strongly intuitive-subtype. And because I have a weird kind of naive-perky alter personality for times when I'm with other people. Erkki says that I'm somewhere in the middle of ENTj and ESTj, but I was ESTj, the relations wouldn't make sense.
1)ENTj intertype relations work
2)ENTj functions work
3)I see myself in the ENTj descriptions.

And I know FDG is ENTj. But the "You're so ISFj, but can't even see it"-thing is totally getting on my nerves, because I'm the typical messy, head in the clouds person. I don't have and I can't say "Yes, master, you know better than I do", if I know that there is no way I could have in my Ego block. It's one of my worst weaknesses.

Facts:
1)harmonic relationship with INTp
2)I'm an analytical person - logic over feelings!, no mercy!, I dislike sentimental people, I think Darth Vader was cool! because he wasn't distracted by mere feelings... It goes on and on. Sometimes I consider, that maybe I am feeling, but then I do a test and whenever I get to the feeling/thinking question, I just stare at it, "Who the hell would really answer that (feeling answer) and mean it?!". I'm not feeling. Or ok, maybe I do have some ... But I'm a very blunt person who just says things without considering other peoples feelings.
3)I have no . The evidence is very clear, but I have no way to prove it over the internet. Just take my word on that.
4)I have a problem with ISTps. They make my blood boil. At least I have typed them as ISTp (before I thought I was ENTj). I have gotten neither of them bastards to even read the description. And both had the same reasons for not reading it.
5)I enjoy arguing with ESTj. Erkki said that when me and the ESTj fight, we become really similar. ? And there are all these people who try to avoid arguing with the ESTj, but I actually provoke him, because I like it.

The only thing I could be, is ENTj. Or ESTj if I ignore some things (supervision with the INTp Erkki). Maybe another ESTj subtype compared to the ESTj I know.

If you can find a type, which is more me and which doesn't go against the facts that I named, let me know! Really. But don't just shout ISFj!
And if I'm just not ENTj, then I'm the 17th type, whatever that may be...

[implied]

[Kim]

Romantic relationships are not a good indicator for type. I had a crappy relationship with an ISTp and seem to be perfectly compatible with my beneficiary. Love really screws with the descriptions, I think. :wink:

I generally type through exclusion and as you know, I don't think you are ENTj:

When criticized, ENTjs switch into Te mode and although they will be very assertive and confident, they usually don't attack the person, but rather the argument. In any case, however, they will not just retreat and leave the question open until they have gone through all their means of rebuttal, at the end of which they might very well resort to "you don't know wtf you are talking about." My point is regardless of how much Se is involved, they will battle it out with you. Three things that I do not associate with ENTjs are:
defensiveness
retreat
feeling personally threatened or upset (unless it's their appearance)

I also think your idea of feelers is skewed. I know three very accomplished and driven ISFjs with advanced degrees (two working towards doctorates). You accused me of being emotional when I wasn't and you very clearly were, probably based on your idea of how I (feeler) and you (supposed thinker) *should* react.


I'm starting to think, in general, that the idea of intelligent and accomplished thinkers and irrational emotional feelers is too ingrained in people's head to correctly type people. I have said for a while, for example, that you cannot type teachers because the smart science dudes will always be typed T. Well, teachers have teaching personas. If you typed me by my actual teaching style in the classroom, I would be Te-dominant, for sure (I teach students how to put together a logical argument based on scholarly research, so *gasp* there is much Ti there even). Type me by my natural interaction with my students and I'm ENFp, no doubt. Ashton's fabulously competent math teacher is most probably ENFp. So my point is that people mistype other people and themselves all the freaking time because of all the bias. I know feelers with horrible social skills and dumb thinkers.

Sorry for my little rant. I'm just a bit jaded. :wink:

[implied]

[Eidos]

Kristiina, I definitely cannot see ENTj. Your first posts in this forum talk about sides of your personality that are completely alien to an ENTj (obsessive rechecking of details, routines you follow, etc.). Even according to the theory, your way of reasoning is not ENTj. An ENTj in theory has first and that's "practical" and empirical logic. Trusting empirical thinking and facts over theories. An ENTj decides by looking at an objective measure. Your mistrust of your own test results show an anti-Te stance.

You reason via the theory as though it was correct, mentionning your relationships with other people, etc. If I also reason via the theory, if that's the only thing that can convince you, I'll say this is . Only Ti dominant people would trust the theory more than measures. In fact, Ti dominant people are skeptical of measures and their "objectivity".

=> ISTj

[Kristiina]

i am actually leaning towards ESFp for kristiina's type over ISFj.


i think the ganin descriptions really fuck this stuff up sometimes.

I analysed it, and Se might be my primary function. The description of ESFp was quite accurate, but I can't really identify with Ti in PoLR.

Honestly, might it be possible, that I have Ti PoLR and Te as Hidden Agenda?