Originally Posted by Words
Imo, advice is info+delivery. What might have happened with Words is that he didn't bother about delivery, and his advice gave out negative vibes that blurred out the info. I say this because it happens to me when dealing with people who don't value Fe. Delivery is just as important as the information you are trying to convey (again imo).
Fuck that. You either appreciate a message or you don't, regardless of how it was delivered to you. The delivery only accentuates the point. Any "adjusted" delivery is false delivery, because it's implicitly fake.
If someone can't take Word's frank, unfiltered comments, I don't see why he should bother with anything. That's other people's problem. And if they want to make it his (problem), they can go screw themselves.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Depending on how words said what he said he might have given her the impression that he had some sort of contempt for her (on a general level) and it isn't exactly wise to date someone that doesn't like you.
As for his advice, we technically don't know if she followed it or not. It's possible that she dumped him and followed his advice straight afterward.
It's not about who's problem it is, but being objective about conserving the relationship... The "they can go screw themselves" stance you're talking about is aggressive, especially when someone is displaying typical human behavior of being illogical towards a sensitive subject, which beauty and looking pretty tends to be with women.
There's a difference between saying something in a neutral way and adding unnecessary undertones to a supposed "caring" message. Saying that "you might want to stop wasting money on a fucking haircut" is not the same as "you might want to stop wasting money on a haircut." The "fucking" part makes it more of an attack... Even better is "you don't need to spend that much money on a haircut." Are all of these false statements? It's the same info, but with different ways of delivering.
I hear what you guys are all saying. I think Lobo is absolutely right. It is about info + delivery, at least to non-delta STs and non gamma NTs. that means there are 12 types that are attuned to delivery. And that's probably why Words never heard from that girl again, just to explain it away.
Fi valuers will care more about the info. Delta NFs ime seem to care to an extent about delivery but do give the benefit of the doubt to people they appraise as good (and try to understand that they didn't really mean it that way). Probably Gamma SFs are like this too (hey, they have to be). Delta NFs and Gamma SFs are pretty good at delivery in a very diplomatic, gentle sort of way, I think (Fi doms > Fi creatives). Fe-egos are pretty good at delivery in a very expressive sort of way--I feel like there is an Fe version of diplomacy too.
Fi-POLRs like ILE or SLE, I'm thinking will care minimally about the "info" and more about the delivery. They are also blunt in a different way from Fe-POLRs. Fe valuers in general seem hold delivery > info. This is where most misunderstandings between my mom (ESE I think) and myself or sister (both delta NFs) arise. I've also had an SLE say to me "are you ok? you seem upset" when I was just being serious and listening carefully to what he was saying.
I mean that doesn't mean you should change that about yourself--bluntness can be a good thing. Personally, often I find Fe-POLR hilarious.
Lobo. Good call.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
ya, thats the problem. its tricky, though, when being yourself can give the wrong impression about how you feel. i think Fe polr must really suck in that way.
true for me. i do have an instantaneous emotional reaction to the vibes in the way someone is talking to me...taking a step back to understand the actual meaning takes a conscious effort. and i'm not always able to do it if i'm tired or stressed, or just really offended. just because i'm Fi-ego doesn't mean i am able to immediately filter out all extraneous emotional content and focus only on the information...i'm not sure if that's actually possible.
I think it's possible for delta STs (and maybe gamma NTs). Basically Te-egos. I am infinitely impressed by that!
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
page 123!
Iiiiit's as easy as A-B-C!
Its page 25 for me.
--
As for delivery/info. No matter how much Delta ST (and certain other types) dont care about it, it is important. You cant expect someone to aproach someon you dont know with the premise that he is genuine in his advice and without any other emotional or other background behind it. You can assume it but you will be wrong quite often, probably more often than you are right.
One can say the same sentence which means the same but will imply:
a) your stupid
b) im just saying the info and dont care about the deliery
c) stop whining
d) i dislike you and want you to go away
e) I say thing in a manner I say because I like you and think you will appreciate the honesty
etc.
If you know the person you can more or less judge correctly. If you dont, you cant know which is it, which creates problems. Also quite a lot of people have emotional reaction to everything. The fact that it seems dumb or whatnot does not change the fact it is how it is.
I can dislike a person due to his delivery simply because I dislike rude people. Yet I do not mind rudeness when I know the person and know whether it is serious or not.
Looking for an Archnemesis. Willing applicants contact via PM.
ENFp - Fi 7w6 sp/sx
The Ineffable IEI
The Einstein ENTp
johari nohari
http://www.mypersonality.info/ssmall/
Wow! Plenty response!Yeah, I actually do that too, the testing part. There's only so long people can paper up the cracks in a relationship so I like to find out sooner rather than later what's going on.
On this spending thing - I dated another girl before who was temping at the time (low paid job) but had real issues with budgeting her finance. I remember going out for dinner with her and two of my friends, and for some reason she decided to pay for it (the other two guys were loaded but tight) and also we went grocery shopping and she spent a fortune in stuff we didn't need. I can't remember what I said to her, something like, "why are you spending all that money, you can't afford it, you're a temp" etc. Anyway she got pretty offended over it, but we moved on from it.
Sure it's her money etc....but the relationship progressed and guess who ended up carrying the can for her financial problems...me. So the end of the day do I want to date someone who spends a hundred pounds a month on a haircut when I know plenty other girls who are perfectly attractive but not so vain.
Another story, a friend who's now married, told his wife (then girlfriend) that he wouldn't marry her till she paid off all her credit cards. His approach was that if they got married and she hadn't, he'd have to end up paying them.
Yeah it gets complicated, personally i'd love to date someone with more money than me, but...whether it's right or not (and of course there's always exceptions), don't want to date someone who could financially ruin me.
So it's better to be honest, but at the same time I can see a need for delivery. Heh.
Yeah this is true. Then you meet someone who'd rather have it straight. No winning at times.
Yeah. I've realised that at a work environment I sometimes have to watch how I phrase things.
Yeah, it wasn't meant as an attack really, just the way I phrased it.
Hehe, yeah I try to improve somewhat, then wonder why. Since we're on the subject we can have a laugh at something I said which was meant to be funny but not taken that way. I was talking to a girl in a bar who was telling me she used to do modelling, and I asked her, "what where you modelling, baliclavas"?
I don't think she found it funny, and I realised it was innappropriate. At same time I mentioned it to a female friend and she said, 'well that's when you find out if someone's got a sense of humour or not'.
Anyway, seems i'm making a good job of embarrassing myself here, haha.
Yeah.
I think Simon Cowell is an INTp, and he just says what he thinks. After a while it becomes endearing....I hope....
Pretty much..i'll see what I can do
Sorry if I'm interrupting any discussion...
I'm not really doing well at the moment. Last night, I sat in the shower with the water turned to almost full heat as I watched my skin glow red for almost an hour. Yet my coping mechanisms feel tapped dry.
I've just decided to take disability time off work to focus on getting better. I have tumors inside my spinal cord that are really doing some damage and obliterating my quality of life, and it's been extremely difficult managing work at the same time. I'm such a perfectionist and have this urge to just keep pushing pushing pushing, but I have to admit to myself that I can't do it anymore. Chug chug chug chug chug... chug... chug... chuuuuug... uuugghhh... uhh....
I'll keep doing what I need to do, though. I'll take the pills my neurosurgeon and pain management doctor prescribe. I'll go to the group therapy sessions on coping with chronic illness. I'll let them work on aligning my spinal canal, pelvis, and whatever other bones are askew. I'll do the guided meditation. If all else fails, I'll elect to have surgery and risk losing my life for a better one.
But seriously, guys, this sucks so fucking hard.
:frown:
Stay strong.
*hugz*
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
And yet it still gets me by surprise when people misread me by 180 degrees.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
I really don't know what to say, just this is heartbreaking and I really hope something helps you with the pain
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
I meant to say before, April - that's rough stuff. Best wishes.
Thank you very much, everybody.Here's an update if you're interested...
I met with my neurosurgeon today. We're in the beginning stages of talking about and planning another surgery (I had my first surgery 8 years ago when I was 16). He told me that with another surgery, I'll have a 20% chance of something extremely bad happening like paralysis or death. Best case scenario: I'll be in the hospital for several weeks and then a rehabilitation facility for several months. Obviously, I have serious reservations about another surgery, but I don't feel like I have much of a choice. I felt so embarrassed and pathetic -- I sobbed the entire appointment. I got such a raging headache from the stress and crying that I threw up the whole car ride home.
My last surgery, as my neurosurgeon explained, was one of the worst stressors that the human body can endure and likened it to being hit my a train. After that ordeal, I didn't know if I would be able to walk or go to the bathroom on my own (which will be the case with another surgery). On that note...
During the appointment, I shared with the medical team one of the worst moments of my entire life to emphasize how terrified I am of another surgery. After my last surgery, I received really poor nursing care and frequently didn't receive my pain medication until hours after it was due. At one point, I was in so much pain after not receiving any nursing attention for a prolonged period of time, I really needed to go to the bathroom but didn't know if I could go on my own, and I was really fed up with the whole situation. I literally ripped off all the leads that were attached to my body and walked myself to the bathroom while holding onto the IV stand for support. As I sat on the toilet with a full bladder, I cried as nothing came out and thought I would be cathing for the rest of my life. With each sob, it felt like my back was about to rip open.
*sigh* That's probably enough sharing for one day. Thanks for reading.
My heart goes out to you April, you're such a brilliant, strong person and you are so brave just now. Stay strong. Hugs.
Wow... I don't really know what to say or do, I hope everything works out for you.
I would give you mine spinal cord, if I could, without hesitating.
I kinda sorta love you guys. Thank you.
What the nurses did (or didn't do in this case) is totally unacceptable. I had a major operation less than a year ago and I can't imagine how difficult it would have been to not have people constantly assisting me; I seriously hope that something was done with the people who were supposed to be taking care of you, because they obviously should not be allowed to be in that sort of position if they're that negligentThank you very much, everybody.
I met with my neurosurgeon today. We're in the beginning stages of talking about and planning another surgery (I had my first surgery 8 years ago when I was 16). He told me that with another surgery, I'll have a 20% chance of something extremely bad happening like paralysis or death. Best case scenario: I'll be in the hospital for several weeks and then a rehabilitation facility for several months. Obviously, I have serious reservations about another surgery, but I don't feel like I have much of a choice. I felt so embarrassed and pathetic -- I sobbed the entire appointment. I got such a raging headache from the stress and crying that I threw up the whole car ride home.
My last surgery, as my neurosurgeon explained, was one of the worst stressors that the human body can endure and likened it to being hit my a train. After that ordeal, I didn't know if I would be able to walk or go to the bathroom on my own (which will be the case with another surgery). On that note...
During the appointment, I shared with the medical team one of the worst moments of my entire life to emphasize how terrified I am of another surgery. After my last surgery, I received really poor nursing care and frequently didn't receive my pain medication until hours after it was due. At one point, I was in so much pain after not receiving any nursing attention for a prolonged period of time, I really needed to go to the bathroom but didn't know if I could go on my own, and I was really fed up with the whole situation. I literally ripped off all the leads that were attached to my body and walked myself to the bathroom while holding onto the IV stand for support. As I sat on the toilet with a full bladder, I cried as nothing came out and thought I would be cathing for the rest of my life. With each sob, it felt like my back was about to rip open.
*sigh* That's probably enough sharing for one day. Thanks for reading.
Hopefully, if you do have to undergo another operation and hard recovery, you'll have a different staff helping you out
I have you in my thoughts April and will be hoping for some type of miracle or swift recovery for you
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
Anyone ever see The Seven Samurai?
April, what you're going through is a surreal experience that I doubt most of the members or readers of your post will fully understand. You are basically thrown into a situation where you are the one who is in a position to tell us how to cope with whatever you are going through... The most people can do here is offer kind words of encouragement, but you are the atlas carrying the big weight. Ironically, you are in a position right now to offer strength, overcoming your fears and pain. How do you get through what you are experiencing? Probably no one knows here, and you are given the opportunity to dig deep inside yourself and answer this question not only for you, but for everyone else. I wish you the best.Thank you very much, everybody.
I met with my neurosurgeon today. We're in the beginning stages of talking about and planning another surgery (I had my first surgery 8 years ago when I was 16). He told me that with another surgery, I'll have a 20% chance of something extremely bad happening like paralysis or death. Best case scenario: I'll be in the hospital for several weeks and then a rehabilitation facility for several months. Obviously, I have serious reservations about another surgery, but I don't feel like I have much of a choice. I felt so embarrassed and pathetic -- I sobbed the entire appointment. I got such a raging headache from the stress and crying that I threw up the whole car ride home.
My last surgery, as my neurosurgeon explained, was one of the worst stressors that the human body can endure and likened it to being hit my a train. After that ordeal, I didn't know if I would be able to walk or go to the bathroom on my own (which will be the case with another surgery). On that note...
During the appointment, I shared with the medical team one of the worst moments of my entire life to emphasize how terrified I am of another surgery. After my last surgery, I received really poor nursing care and frequently didn't receive my pain medication until hours after it was due. At one point, I was in so much pain after not receiving any nursing attention for a prolonged period of time, I really needed to go to the bathroom but didn't know if I could go on my own, and I was really fed up with the whole situation. I literally ripped off all the leads that were attached to my body and walked myself to the bathroom while holding onto the IV stand for support. As I sat on the toilet with a full bladder, I cried as nothing came out and thought I would be cathing for the rest of my life. With each sob, it felt like my back was about to rip open.
*sigh* That's probably enough sharing for one day. Thanks for reading.
Not true.
And please refrain from speaking in plural like that, as if "'us" or "we" = Lobo. It's annoying, inconsiderate, and offensive.
Last edited by Park; 11-25-2010 at 09:30 PM.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Maybe if you explain all the absolutes you are throwing in there, I'll start to only consider what you are saying. Otherwise, I honestly could care less what you think, regardless if you say "please" or throw in Fi manipulation crap like saying I'm being inconsiderate and offensive in your point of view.
So much for being open-minded... and let's not even talk about thoughtfulness.
But to help you see where I'm coming from:
You wrote your post in first person plural, speaking for everyone (or a group of people), which is not something everyone appreciates, because obviously, not everyone is cool with other people talking for them (or on their behalf, if you will). You were saying what "we" can or cannot do, made assumptions about what "we" know or don't know, how "we" can or cannot help April, etc. You drew generalized implications instead of speaking for yourself. If you cannot see how this manner of speaking is inconsiderate and can be offensive to individuals (on who's behalf you speak), I don't think I can be of any help. But no, you don't have to care. Better yet, explain to me what sort of absolutes and Fi manipulation crap I am throwing at you; I'd like to now.
Last edited by Park; 11-25-2010 at 10:38 PM.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
lal alalallalalalalalala
So what do you want for yule-tide?
Ok, then let's not talk about thoughtfulness. I don't see how what I wrote was that offensive, and if it doesn't apply to you or anyone else here, then that's fine. What I wrote was based on what I believe is the truth, and imo I haven't been proven wrong (not that it means I'm right). I do think it's a bit illogical to be offended by what I wrote, which is why I doubt I'll be having a change of heart anytime soon.
What I meant was that you are trying to make me do something by stating that what I said was "annoying, inconsiderate, offensive," etc, without giving any kind of reasoning and just stating it as the truth. Words like that are emotionally charged and I perceive the way you are using them as a direct attempt to affect my emotional state and make me compliant somehow to your view.
A full-time job
What Lobo said. And a coffee press, and a teapot with a infuser.
Johari/Nohari
"Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."
Fruit, the fluffy kitty.
I didn't see what you wrote as offensive at all, and perhaps Parkster was a bit harsh with you because of it, but I understand what he was referring to.
That is, speaking in a collective tone (i.e. "we" "us"), although in all fairness you did it in a sort of hesitant way, like including "probably" and "doubt" in between
Nothing really to be quite honest, anything I want I get myself...
This year I'm asking people to make donations to Toy Mountain (a charitable organization in my area where people can donate toys for needy kids at Christmas). Plus it gives me an excuse to shop for toys and pick-out jewelery and other girly things for teen kids at Claire's, so it's a win win for me
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
Well fine, then, I know what I want
I want some quality nonfiction books (or textbooks). I'm totally embracing my nerdiness and I don't care no more. I apparently have a full time job now so I'm happy about that. All things considered I guess I'm doing pretty well so no complaints.
I'd like some plane tickets and some money to take language courses, or some other language training.
Some houses around the world would also be nice but I don't think that's going to happen.
Did you even read what I wrote? Or was I talking to myself?
I gave my reasoning, short and to the point. Should I try drawing it for you?
What a load of bull. I percieve this as reading into things.
Last edited by Park; 11-27-2010 at 04:26 AM.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
I think you two need to hug it out.
Until they're fagged?
They'll have to do laps around the delta quad and then hug it out, until their totally fagged out, yes.
April, wow, I'm so sorry for all that you're going through. I wish I could help you somehow, but all I feel I can do is offer some emotional support and my prayers.
Christmas and things...
This year, my church is doing this:
I think it's a good idea.
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
What else can you, or someone else do?
Nothing really, i've never been the sort of person to expect presents. I prefer random gifts rather than set periods of the year where I have to buy stuff for people (or they have to buy it for me). I like the holidays and meeting up with people I haven't seen for a while at christmas, but not the commercial pressure aspect of it.
BUMPER CARZ
I recommend this one:
Yes, find strength:
I'd like that, yes.
lol, I'm not angry.
Yeah, I think it's a good idea to un-commercialize Christmas.April, wow, I'm so sorry for all that you're going through. I wish I could help you somehow, but all I feel I can do is offer some emotional support and my prayers.
Christmas and things...
This year, my church is doing this:
YouTube - Advent Conspiracy 2010
I think it's a good idea.
OK so its minus 3 degrees centigrade here today and I've popped into the pub for a half whiskey half Guinness to warm the cockles so to speak.
I'm kinda interested in peoples tips to keep cozy this coming winter. Here's mine:
1. Alcohol..hot toadies, whisky, mulled wine hmmmm
2. Long johns and thermal vests - yup! Not trendy but highly effective!
3. Gloves to keep hands warm and throwing snowballs
4. Sitting by a coal fire as I am just now!
5. Living above a dead lesbian who died just after switching her heating on full blast and constant. Seriously, dunno if she's alive but I just need to lie on the floor to get a heat. Might even sleep on it.
6. Get your second hand socks! Well there not second hand, but you get a good deal from army surplus stores and they're the business
7. Break your mates heating so it's on full blast and pop round for tea when it's especially cold.
8. Keep burning fossil fuels
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