yeah there's no hard data that I know of, but I bet if you typed everyone the facts would show Te polr being near the topOriginally Posted by MaviTilki
yeah there's no hard data that I know of, but I bet if you typed everyone the facts would show Te polr being near the top
Makes it so Scantrons have to be printed with socionics questionnaires at the beginning and the data has to be sent to the World Typology Foundation
I find IEIs to be "surprisingly" bad at some practical stuff. Like I would automatically assume they can do it (my amount oftells me they should be OK with it), but then they suddenly don´t. ESIs too, sometimes, they completely suck at dealing with some basic electronic devices even though they may be able to perfectly solve complicated maths problems in a very precise way (with way more patience than me).
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
It looks like many people on this forum assume that all weak Te is Te PoLR.
Both Te PoLR and Te Seeking have identical issues, actually.
Both their Te is 1D, weak. So, they are both going to suck at Te equally.
Particularly xEI-Fe and ExI-Fi are going to suck at Te.
Many assume that valuing an IE means that that IE is going to be stronger and more obvious, but this is false.
Because their main program is Fi, which is opposed to using Te (you cannot use Te when you are using Fi at the same time), ExI-Fi individuals can have just as bad Te as a Te PoLR person, if not worse.
In both cases, the person won't use Te much and require help in that area. Both EII and IEI will be the most "impractical" types in the Socion, for both their Te and Se is weak.
The only way to truly gauge whether someone is Te PoLR or Te Seeking is, besides gauging whether they value Te or not (which can be tricky, because their Te is rather unconscious and weak), is to see whether they value Ti or not.
At least that is how I can tell the difference. Te seeking types may accept Ti from a Ti lead to some extent, but generally they do not care for it. On a superficial level, their Ti Role will be used, but there is no deeper personal investment. Whereas with Ti HA, there will be a much more obvious investment in Ti, which is connected to Te PoLR. If you care about Ti, you don't care about Te.
Anyhow, like others before me I could mention the ways in which my weak Te manifests itself, but that wouldn't really be any different from Te Seeking problems.
The one example that might be able to show the difference, is my aversion to unfamiliar, large bodies of information, especially if they contradict a theoretical system I deem to be true and making logical sense. My first impulse is to reject such information. I also do not care for "authorities" of certain information; as in, for me the information or theory behind something is of more significance than whether it is factually "backed up" by science or any kind of authority. When something makes logical sense to me, I am more inclined to believe it than if someone showed me a poll or study of something that is supposed to be "factually correct", especially if said poll or study opposes my logical system of thought. Simply, it is theory > facts for me. Just because someone has more "experience" than me, doesn't mean that they have to be "right" on a particular issue. Whether something is true or correct or not depends on logic, and not on whether someone is considered more "qualified" to know said information. I always question and analyze the validity of someone's ideas, and again, if they do not fit into a particular system or contradict certain information or systems, I am quick to ignore them, no matter how "qualified" or "knowledgable" they are supposed to be. You may call it arrogance, but I feel like it is up to me to decide whether something is "true" or not, not any kind of authority or "facts". Etc etc.
I agree with certain parts you mentioned, but actually if someone is a professional about a certain topic and really knows what they are talking about, then I will most likely listen to them, because I just do not know as much about a topic as they do (like if I do not feel certain about things)
But if people intentionally try to convince me my way of thinking is wrong or try to pressure me (especially about some topics where they themselves cannot really explain things to me or prove them step by step) then I am much more stubborn about my way of thinking.
But I wouldn't phrase it the way "it is up to me if something is true" I hold no power over real truth (I mean truth can differ from whatever angle you watch it) but the sky is blue and I cannot deny it. I can only decide though the way things make sense to myself. I had tons of discussions with people as a child and it seemed to annoy especially adults because most people are like "it's a fact.. accept it", but they never really explained the things in a way that made sense or went into detail with it, made me understad with real life facts etc. I think that would be much more convincing to me. Also the amount of time people thought about things can be convincing to me. I believe my ILI friend a lot and I love to listen to him because I know that he really thinks about things in detail and thoroughly. Sometimes admitting being wrong can almost physically hurt me, lol.
I don't know about the large bodies of information part, yes completely new topics and lots of stuff to read about it will take me a while to learn about them.. but I actually can store lots of knowledge in my memory. I think understanding new topics and memorising them is something everyone can struggle with?
Oh look, a reasonable outlook and not just trying to say the "right" exact things to sound Te polr in theory.
True, but what has that got to do with simply describing IEI's Te polr? Why are you so hung up on making distinction between your Te polr and Te seeking folks ? It's a really odd (and slightly creepy) obsession of yours, tbh. We have heard this a thousand times from you, how you value Ti and nobody else doesand everybody also knows that EII and ESI are bad with Te, but thanks for teaching us.
Last word from me is that Te is Efficient not practical. IEI is a very skillful type.
Well I think that following step by step procedures is much likelier with ESI's and EII's than with IEI' but ok. IEI's are the types that do "everything" at the last moment, when time pressures them. And they prefer to do things their own way, as long as they are done in time. That's why they are decisive and irrational.
the difference between Te suggestive and Te polr has to do with creative usage. Creative Fe means Te polr, which means creative Fe is not concerned with the "does this make sense" in terms of "logic of actions." i.e. creative Fe fabricates "Fe products" that may in the end be counterproductive in terms of whether or not it actually works against itself or is at all efficient in regards to what it is trying to accomplish. A good example of an Fe product is a lie or absurdity told in order to raise someone's spirits. The utterance may in fact raise their spirits, but what the person really needs, long term, is real self esteem or an answer to their immediate practical problem. Thus merely making the interlocutor "feel better" about something without addressing the underlying issue may actually worsen the consequences down the line. This "illogicality" in terms of goals v actions, is a "failure of Te." It is true, both ESI and SEI may end up behaving in a way where they each "fail" at Te or do something less than perfect in regards to "logic of actions" but the difference is, in principle, Te suggestive tries not to, and is receptive to people venturing ideas and courses of action that include not failing at Te as a core principle. They find Te considerations persuasive. SEI finds Te critique of actions "mean", whereas ESI is convinced of the necessity of such considerations. ESI doesn't tend to give fake compliments, and if they do it tends to be with people they aren't genuinely concerned about but simply want to manipulate. Te and Fi go together, such that in a certain sense Fi is Te: if someone is not worth sincerity then it is ok to "manipulate" them obsequiously, but if you care about them you tell them the truth, (this is why people tend to think Strat has it out for LIE, when all I see is love) this is a Te/Fi way of thinking.
SEI feels that in general Fe is the ultimate answer for everything, such that when they go about producing "Fe products" they, by definition, must exclude Te as a judgement criterion [1]. SEI generally uses Fe to protect itself, it "wraps" a Fe cocoon around itself such that anyone who wants to "move" the SEI has to penetrate it. This is how introverts manage to protect their base function, which is concerned with, especially in the case of Ip, homeostasis and equilibration over time. SEI likes to set things up so that anyone who would tell them what to do or otherwise act "against" them looks like that a big meanie. Especially in the case of Sp/So types this is their primary way of being that they exude automatically. Fi thinks "care" is the "ugly truth" (because it leads to solving problems--Te). SEI thinks of "care" in the sense of improving emotional states, by whatever means necessary, is the answer itself, without concern for logic or time and how they come together to create future consequences--that is the realm of the gamma NTs, their opposites.
SEI doesn't realize that in going about life the way they do they make enemies out of benevolent actors and cut themselves off from constructive advice. When I say Te PoLR is "sad" what I really mean is "tragic" in this way. Many excellent SEIs never go anywhere in life because they're always getting in their own way, but even worse when their influence spreads to the level of policy they tend to bring down entire organizations and groups from within, having a withering rather than nurturing effect on their environment. That is Te polr at its worst--absolute counter productivity
the reason Te polr has a reputation for being bad at "getting shit done" is not because they're incapable of making plans, or executing, in principle, but because they substitute their planning for sweet nothings that obviate the need for more productive ("realistic") planning or action, as a general strategy when confronted with anything (fe creative). this of course tends to lead to going nowhere over time (but making sure to enjoy! the decline)
Te suggestive doesn't do that, instead they tend to work their ass off, because they have a valued albiet low res picture of what needs to get done and they take that very seriously. if they go nowhere its because they're spending too much time busting their ass and aren't lazy enough (in the way balzac is lazy: i.e.: all about efficiency and cost-benefit to the point of extreme conservation of effort)
[1] paradoxically, the more SEI/IEI like you, the less likely they are to tell you the "ugly truth"-- IEIs reputation for "lyricism" is their intuitional ability to finely tune any expression in order to make it palatable--that is their poeticism so to speak; so they're not exactly lying, they work hard to craft "Fe" in order to both tell the truth and make it as "aesthetically pleasing"--to the extent such a thing is possible... and to the degree they succeed they craft real "poetry"
Last edited by Bertrand; 07-26-2017 at 12:16 PM.
No need to let the hate for Fe shine through (this is a bit too subjective in my opinion).
Also I am known to be one of the most honest and blunt people around.. yes I dislike hurting people I actually like more than strangers with my words. But I never lie to them when it is about negative things, when things bother me I always tell my best friend. I am actually quite a nitpicker. I sometimes struggle though with constantly bringing things up so it can come through with me exploding because I bottled it up for so long.
Also when confronted about my laziness I actually don't like that for real, because it is none of other people's business. Only I decide if I like being lazy or not. And my way of life is none of their concern.. so many people already commented on it I just wanna vomit in their face (not literally obviously).
Fe doesn't have anything to do with lies, met tons of SEEs who lied and weren't honest. IEEs and SEEs (especially SEEs) can lie when they charm people or exaggerate facts .. my SEE stepfather does it constantly.. sometimes he won't even tell a story the exact same way it was.
I also do not tell lies with Fe in general.. it is usually used by telling real stories in an exciting way (intonation of voice, faces I pull) and then expect a certain reaction/ entertain a group.. usually (there was an EII youtuber who really explained Fe to Fe POLRs and why it is important). Fi is true to itself.. but Fe (because I have the intention to make someone laugh or happy) is meant in a good/true way towards the other person, intention wise. If it is healthy of course (but that is a rule for every used function.. to be healthy to express it in a positive way).
Last edited by dot; 07-25-2017 at 04:07 PM.
This was enlightening...
Te polr is inability to discern the truth from "things that produce positive affect"--its a substitute definition for truth at loggerheads with Te, so of course Fe doesn't view itself as a liar. That kind of self awareness comes from Fi/Te. Everyone has always known Fi views Fe as "fake" (aka lies), whereas Fe views Fi as "selfish." but each function does not ethically view itself as such because it has an opposite thinking dichotomy that structures their ethics in a consistent way. The construction that Fe "lies" is using a Te criterion for judgement. The idea that Fi lies in the case of SEE is likely a case of Ti polr, I do not think it is a coincidence that you brought them up in that regard, judged in light of Fe/Ti. SEE likewise does not see themselves as a liar. If you take the position that Fe doesn't have anything to do with lies then the result is that no one lies. Whereas I tend to believe "everyone lies" which is basically, again, Te v Fe view of the world [1]. The difference is Fe seems to lack self awareness but Te runs the risk of justifying unethical behavior. For what its worth, I try to root out lies and not dispense with them via distraction or other feel good means, because in the end, that way of dealing with them is not helpful long term
Fe has a real problem of producing ideas that shift the blame without fully understanding the issue because investigating it fully would lead to negative feelings [2]. The counterproductivity of such action at its worst is Te polr. Fe polr has the opposite problem where it produces good ideas in a "package" that precludes it from ever being implemented. Si polr has the problem of death or insanity stopping good work before it can be finished
[1] a better way to put it is, we are all sinners (miss the mark). that untruth "infects" us all psychologically, it is a condition of being fallen, of being human
[2] hence the beta proclivity to "scapegoat" and "send to the monastery"--as Strat so insightfully points out
this all, I think, amounts to the fundamental difference between a merry v serious worldview
Last edited by Bertrand; 07-25-2017 at 05:08 PM.
Except Te isn't "the truth."
External dynamics of objects
Internal dynamics of objects
External statics of objects
A few examples of aspects. Pick which one is "the truth."
Answer: they're all looking at various aspects of reality. It's not about truth and falsehood.
if positive affect is the goal and your actions in pursuit of it lead towards less of it over time can we at least say that labeling the straightforward pursuit of it as the truth constitutes a failure to discern the truth in light of your own goals and thus implicit criterion for truth?
in that sense manifestations of "te polr" are by definition instances of "inability" to discern the truth
if Fe makes no claim on the truth then it is not a failure to discern the truth but rather a flat denial of truth as such, i.e.: nihilistic to the core (incipit LSI), in which case there's nothing really to discuss
in other words its not enough to say there are "merely perspectives" if that doesn't in some sense posit a whole of which the perspectives view. there is both subject and object without which neither exists in a cognizable form
the idea of there being psychological perspectives is a product of ego/super ego relations and each has to come to terms with the other, one cannot flatly deny the other without paying the price
every polr is a manifestation of paying the piper, so to speak. it is the outer situation asserting itself
the ultimate goal is to unify the perspectives, which means we cannot deny them, but rather must integrate them. your way of viewing things, squark, actually smacks of Ne polr in defense of Fe/Ti in its own way
I mean this all in the gentlest possible way, but you will see in my earlier post how I touch on how Fe polr is the other side of the coin of Te polr for example. in the end each judgement criterion has to reckon with the other, so a rush to the defense of Fe polr amounts to succumbing to it
for what its worth i fundamentally believe that Fe and Te have the same goals, just different priorities, those priorities do not constitute truth but reflect a portion of it (Ne). to leave it at perspectives and priorities is nihilism and is an untruth itself.. a kind of moral failure to seek further and examine one's own sin
Last edited by Bertrand; 07-25-2017 at 04:51 PM.
Which is what I already said: "they're all looking at various aspects of reality." In other words, each is focused on a different part of the whole.
yes but there is a truth and Fe can be counter productive according to it and its not just a matter of perspective but is something real, otherwise why call it polr, why not just "more good stuff flowing from Fe reasoning"
instead its called pain (the painful function), which is basically the most fundamental manifestation of truth, which ive discussed in my Ni thread
note: I didn't say Te was the truth, but that Fe is a substitute for the truth and it is at loggerheads with Te
i will say this, something about the linearity of Ti makes it hard for it to admit any sort of culpability because I think the fear is [one wrong thing] somehow makes them wrong about everything, hence every issue is some kind of hill to die on... this goes to complex of subservience, so in true IEI fashion I'm content to end here
So thus we can conclude that every person in the world (since everyone has a POLR) rejects a certain truth, may it be the Te, Fe, Fi, Ti, Ni, Se, Si, Ne truth that other types are better at I guess?!
PoLR issue is with causation and correlation due to minimal factual exposure. Hence conclusions might be totally out of whack.
Sure, IEIs can manipulate others but that is not
Last edited by The Reality Denialist; 07-25-2017 at 04:48 PM.
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efficient is taking a loan renting a church and go to the right place to get people for the benefit of the community. Do the correct steps for a specific goal. Practical is building the actual church or being handy. Am I viewing "practical" wrongly?
you're comparing NF to ST basically
what is practical has to do with Te and whether its conscious or subconscious, i also talk about that in my Ni thread. the definition differs by type and goal
implicitly the most practical act for ESE is to make cookies, the most practical for ILI to argue why its impractical under the circumstances. efficiency can be measured in terms of Te but the values that weight the "returns" are subjective
Si is a little easier to understand in the sense that Si base, "introverts" view the world through the impact it has on their own inner sensations, and further view those inner sensations in terms of practicality or positive emotion. And for each, one word means the other; hence SEI finds the pursuit of introverted (self centered) physical states that serve to improve their emotions as the definition of "practicality", implictly (unconscious Te/Fi) by the way they live their life and acting out their program. Likewise SLI views the long term sustainability of their own internal physical states viewed in light of practical objective metrics to be the cause and measure of positive emotion--to them; achievement of these states is achievement of Fe, and conspicuous avoidance of direct Fe engagement yet seeming effortless ability to become the soul of the company (promote Fe states) is evidence to the efficacy of this strategy. To wrap up this digression, the Si egos either go about thinking in terms of Si as a product to be manipulated in the self and provided towards others as a superordinate goal that it is either "logical" (Te) or "ethical" (Fe) or as the fundamental goal unto themselves which is then promoted by serving up rational methods (Te, Fe) in order to maximize them for both the self and others. In essence SEI says to himself "what can I do to improve the mood such that I might feel better--I know I will give a compliment!" whereas ESE says "how can I improve someone's physical state in order that I might improve the mood--I know I will offer candy!" Each of these approaches can be directed at the self or others which leads to the paradoxical result of introverts treating themselves the way an extrovert would treat another person, and an extrovert treating themself the way an introvert would treat another person. It just means at that moment contrary to what they do most of the time they have inverted their prevailing attitude. This brings me to one final aside that personality is just a relatively consistent pattern of behavior manifest over time. So it means what defines you as an introvert or extrovert is not prescriptive in that it does not "control your destiny" rather one could conceivably simply act in an extroverted manner and if in doing so over time you spent the majority of your time in an extroverted way you would be by definition an extrovert. The underlying factor seems to be whether or not people biologically have the energy to do such a thing or whether their habits are in some way determined by a base energetic economy. That is still something of an open question.
I do not think it is such a NF ST deviance. All Judging extroverts know the "right steps" and all introverted perceivers can foresee how to do things.
whyd you ask if you already know
yes precisely. in pushing the boundaries of what one function can do--the creative, they make themselves vulnerable according to polr
every type is beautiful in their own way for that reason. the "worst" polr may as well be called "the best" because nothing ventured nothing gained
its why defensiveness about one's polr is misguided, its one's greatest strength and source of creative potential
no one can view their own polr objectively anyway except in the most trite terms, so commenting on your own, if its your own, is pointless anyway, except perhaps from the point of view of a confession of guilt and lessons learned. indeed, if theres any value to be had from polr its from the experience of it failing. even if you could outsmart your own polr it would just amount to mistyping yourself and something else is about to blindside you. if your polr isnt painful then its not your polr meaning youre not the type that has it as a polr. people ought to think about that, and think about what really is painful to them
Last edited by Bertrand; 07-25-2017 at 09:22 PM.
IEI and his te-polr
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J95CXm4kGvQhttps://youtu.be/J95CXm4kGvQ
I often envision how I want things to be, but don’t know the steps to get there, and have a hard time mustering the motivation.
Example, yesterday, I was just staring at a piece of land,
trying to figure out what to do with it.
this is my 4D Se/Te husband already on it….insinuating I’d let them sit around until they die until I figure out what to do with them or how… and he’s prob right
Haha, thanks for encouragement! There is nothing there that says that I want to, except this feeling that 'hmm, all this information has built up'. It might be similar to how ILIs and SLIs experience their Fi ha/Fe polr - the feelings just passively accumulate and simmer but are rarely extended to the outside even when the situation calls for it or depends on it.Do eeet, you know you want to.
Reminded me of Isaac Newton whom I've seen typed as Ni-Ti and how he supposedly invented calculus and then forgot to tell anyone about it. Something like that screams Te PoLR to me. There is this 'lack of logical outreach and connection' that is almost a given for Te egos.
I've taught in the past and I have enjoyed it, but not for the need to structure and explain the material. This always felt straining to me. Like I could do it if I put in the effort and at the same time feel like there is always something unresolved remaining there that I need to work on further. It's easy to get obsessed with one's HA in this way and waste a whole bunch of time getting too preoccupied with it.
It's still no reason to get angry but you're right that he was probably reflexively responding to what he felt was an excessive demand placed on his Te. I don't snap but over time I will start feeling annoyed and want to 'outsource' any such activity to someone else. My father is Te-ILI and he'll explain things to me whether I want to or not, though I can't easily apply his type of logic. For example he came to visit me once and discovered that there was something wrong with the TV, so he proceeded to investigate and drew out the whole network of cables from the tv to the antenna to the dish and the power lines outside and explained to me how it worked, which was a great demo of Extraverted Logic but for me there is no natural continuation from these types of explanations.
I just saw this happen with an IEI manager and her (LIE or ILI) boss. Her boss had gotten feedback from his customer (an SLI-Te colonel) that basically accused her of not understanding anything about the project she was in charge of, and she freaked out (quietly, in an IEI way, but I could tell - "frustrated and near tears" is a good description) and she stood up in the meeting and started pointing to the contract pages where she had done more than was required, saying that the SLI never responded to her requests for information and the SLI simply seemed to not understand what she was talking about when she gave prompt and regular progress reports. People on either side of her had to calm her down.
I sided with the IEI because I knew how she was feeling and why. I'd watched the IEI and the SLI in meetings together earlier (my company is sub-contracting some of the work) and it was not pretty. They both wanted to get results, they both stayed professional, but they were talking to each other through gritted or clenched teeth. Their expectations and approaches to everything were sooooo different.
The IEI wanted me in the meetings with the SLI-Te, even when I didn't have any direct role in the meeting's topic, because I liked them both and could clearly explain to the SLI-Te what the IEI was saying.
I should add that the IEI understood the project better than the SLI-Te, but had a hell of a time explaining it to her in a way that would give the SLI-Te confidence that she knew it.
Ah yeah I could see that.. my other IEI friend also has an IEI father and he was very, very impatient when he taught her Japanese. So she said she cannot learn it from her dad, lol.
I've got an IEI father too.. I think he is the same.. beside that I am like that too.. I become really, really frustrated when I cannot express myself properly or cannot track things back in an exact manner. My brain can feel so mushy.
I can get really angry and even yell when I feel misunderstood.. like I know I should make my steps in between more visible and actually explain situations better... but I sometimes end up just saying a few words.. because explaining can be so exhausting for me.. and I often fail to put it in a way that makes sense to others/ actually gets to some kind of result. So I can feel very misunderstood.
Btw I noticed all the types with low, valued Ti seem to like asking questions.. like I ask tons of questions why things work the way they do.
Last edited by dot; 07-25-2017 at 09:49 AM.
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