Make your case for one or the other
discuss
Cynicism
Idealism
Both
Make your case for one or the other
discuss
I can't really think of them as one or the other. It's like different sides of the same coin. Or isn't there a phrase or something that talks about love and hate being extremely close? It's a lot like that. A polarity encased in a single entity. Sure it might be tough navigating the gap...or is it a gradient? But they can also be intertwined intimately! Bah. Well so far I've observed that cynicism isn't a neutral thing. Neutral is neutral. Cynicism is like idealism disappointed.
Yes I like that quote alot also, I've heard that before in one form or another.
but the thing is, to me it seems children come into the world idealists, but through their experiences with reality they develop a taste for cynicism as a result of reality crushing their ideals about the way things should "ideally" be. Somewhere along the line a person has to make peace with these two ideas it seems, either choose one outlook or another, or find some way to manage both... I am intriguied about what people will make of this question so I won't give away my answer.
I know in alot of movies/books/stories/what not, its easy to identify the idealist and the cynic..... take something as simplistic and well known as star wars.... the idealist is luke skywalker, the cynic hans solo. Take the movie blood diamond, maybe a less known example, but leo's char was the cynic and connely was the idealist... the whole relationship between them was fueled by this element, she was the pure idealist that in her naive-state needed someone to handle the harsh reality, he was the rough cynic that needed to regain his belief in human goodness. Blah blah blah, you can draw up an endless source of characters comparissons... I remember the movie "Men of Honor".... the master chief was a highly cynical character and the black navy diver was the idealist pursuing some impossible dream. Gladiator.... maximus was more of the idealist, cicero was the cynic. Etc, you can probably do this all day with almost every movie you have ever seen. The most interesting thing is that some of the cynics have this element where they seem to be "completely defeated" and other cynics seem to just be skeptical about idealism. The "completely defeated" cynics make the antagonists and the skeptical cynics make the characters that aid the protagonist or they make the "anti-hero" ish protagonists that resolve this inner-conflict at the end of the plot line.
Cynicism vs Idealism.
I've never gotten that far, or perhaps I'm beyond it.
This is a good explanation. I usually start out idealistic but turn cynical after a series of a disappointments. I then stay cynical for awhile then realize that it's not going to solve much to stay cynical. I then become more hopeful that things will turn themselves around but also careful to not be overly optimistic. In other words:
Idealistic ------------> Cynical ---------------------> Realistic
LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP
Good stuff, need moar opinions
Realistic optimism > all.
Cynicism and idealism are both unhealthy. I say I'd rather be cynical, but I am more naturally idealistic. I don't like it though. But I'm just not a practical person really, too 'spiritual and iei like' or whatever.
I don't know....
Besides what is "realistic optimism"? isn't optimism an idealistic notion and realism a cynical notion so isn't what you say basically cynical idealism? bringing us back to the duality of the nature of both.
What I'd really be interesting in you is a given a face to the name of "Realistic optimism"...
That's why I said 'realistic' before the optimism. Knowing what you can accomplish with a bit of luck and effort is important, isn't it? Most people seem to have a problem with arrogance or inflated self of esteem though, which annoys me.
I'd say I am mostly cynical, with one or two pockets of unbridled idealism.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
Cynicism is realism.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
In a way... but cynicism it seems to me to be more focused on the negative attributes of reality that run in opposition to idealistic notions.
Reality consists of positive attributes that run in harmony to idealistic notions also.
So really cynicism is only a subset of reality, plus reality isn't a fixed thing, people have wills and participate in reality... so reality is what you choose to make it and how you choose to affect the world around you.
By definition the moment one starts acting one stops thinking. It is at the turning point that cynicism is abandoned for idealism. It is at that point that one abandons negative thoughst as to how complicated the situation is when seen in it's full complexity (all answers are wrong, nothing is worth doing; I can only shoot ideas down not identify the right one) and embraces the certainty gained from establishing certain factors as absolute on a "good enough for now" basis such that a positive prospect is possible.So I assume you don't think before you act?
None of this excludes thinking before acting. It is actually when people think in a disguisedly "active" way when they "think" idealistically. By expressing themselves, they are not true to the subject matter - not saying what they really believe, but trying to influence the world with their words, which is a form of action.
None of this is subjectively unique to me. Cynicism and thought on one hand and idealism and action on the other are intrinsically linked.
me too! I've actually used the term "realistic optimist" to describe myself in other contexts. This is exactly how I think. Although I voted for idealism. I think in part because when I was younger and my hopes were dashed, I became more realistic and that didn't really help things. At the time I felt like it helped me be a more balanced person but now I'm paying the price by feeling let down and disappointed with myself for not being more idealistic. I dunno. (midlife crisis...)
IEI-Fe 4w3
I'm an idealist with a cynical sense of humor.
For the human race, I'm an idealist, for the universe, cynicism doesn't described my attitude...I'm more of a realist.
cynical about politics and power.
idealistic about possibilities and potential.
skeptical about people.
realistic about new mousetraps.
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
From what I have learned from abnormal psych optimism trumps pessimism in preventing mental disorders...
“No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov
http://kevan.org/johari?name=Bardia0
http://kevan.org/nohari?name=Bardia0
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
I'm fundamentally an idealist. However, in practical terms, I know what will and will not *actually* happen, regardless of what I *want* to happen. But insofar as I continue wanting, aren't I an idealist to that extent? Cynicism is generally a waste of time, imo, but it can be a useful weapon when one's in a bad mood. Little more.
Not a rule, just a trend.
IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.
Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...
I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.
yup. same! but sometimes I talk myself into thinking that maybe what I want to happen could actually happen, even when it's unlikely. It's a great way to set yourself up for disappointment. I go through these phases in my life when I'm very idealistic. then when I've been disappointed enough, the realism kicks in and I give up being idealistic for awhile. And then something happens and it starts all over again.
IEI-Fe 4w3
Me too. (sadface). Idealism-realism cycles can be very frustrating. But whatever. I guess that's life.
I don't know that it's necessarily "more dangerous" (I think the more or less danger comes in based on the degree to which they're off), but it's definitely as dangerous, and most people don't notice that, annoyingly enough.Yes, I'm saying that. They think they are better than what they really are, which is more dangerous than somebody thinking they are less than what they really are.
Not a rule, just a trend.
IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.
Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...
I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.
“No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov
http://kevan.org/johari?name=Bardia0
http://kevan.org/nohari?name=Bardia0
Yes, I'm saying that. They think they are better than what they really are, which is more dangerous than somebody thinking they are less than what they really are. We like to go after people with 'low self-esteem' more than we like to go people with too high of self-esteem, but the people with too high self of esteem are the ones that are a threat to other people, if somebody just has too low of self-esteem why do we care? We only bother them because it makes our own lives feel better but they are only hurting themselves. I'd rather us be insecure and weak and have low self-esteem, then the other way around. But it takes actual balls to confront somebody who thinks they are the shit, it's just way too easy to go after somebody that is down about themselves. =)I mean are you basically saying that a large portion of people think too highly of what they are capable of?
I agree. Plus, people with overly high self-esteem will be just as unhappy as people with low self-esteem, when their delusions crash into cold hard reality. These are the people who feel like the world owes them something because they're such special people. An attitude of entitlement can only lead to misery.
Quaero Veritas.
Alright, alright, that makes perfect sense, and I generally agree.
The only thing that pops into my mind is that there is an idea of believing you have the potential to do something. Then there is an idea of believing you are ready to do something. They are NOT the same thing. Many people have the potential to run a marathon, but very few people are currently in condition to actually pick themselves up and do it.
So where am I going with this? I am saying that when people evaluate what they are capable of I think they confuse the potential with the reality. For example, someone may believe they are strong and competent because they have some sort of fighting spirit inside them, but when they try to face down their challenges they fail horribly because they didn't channel that spirit into reality and train themselves to competency.
I think this is what creates arrogant people who think too highly of themselves, they have the right spirit, but they aren't willing to mold and channel that spirit into something real because they believe themselves naturally superior, and that feeling natural superiority and entitlement is their downfall.
So basically what I am saying, is that its not like a person is born as a fixed "arrogant person", its a barrier that people overcome in progressing in life, the ability to realize their potential and channel it succesfully... and the only way they learn is accepting their failures when they happen rather than blaming them on "reality".
Now
Would this for example be a form of realistic optimism, in your opinion... what is your impression of this idea?
.
Cynical in thought, idealistic in action.
I don't know upon thinking more on this I really like expressing cynicism in a sort of sarcastic/witty sense because it helps relieve certain feelings of "crushed idealism" as cynicism is supposedly just that. However I'd rather choose to live by ideals, than live by cynicism. I think being an adult rather than being a child etc.... all that stuff is easily recouncilable if you are willing to accept life as not always matching up to your inner idealism. Coming of Age in part, is realizing and accepting this.
yeah. midlife is the real realism, cynicism, skepticism, whatever you want to call it. it burns. bad.
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
Thats the fascinating thing, its like the business cycle with a steady cycle of ups and downs... at every turn reality drop kicks your idealism and you have to stand back up, once you get up you feel more empowered, but then you get drop kicked again.
On the large scale the first big drop kick is adolesence (aka childhood to adult)
The second big drop kick is early adult life as it leads into midlife
The last drop kick is in your transition from midlife to being elderly
Most people deal well with the first
the second is harder
the last is hardest
if you can make it to old age and not be a completely grumpy cynical old person, you've done well, if not I'd suggest you find a group of kids to shake your fist at annoyingly.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Yes. I think I left something out of the story.
There is actually a continuum that extends further into the direction of idealism.
First a person is cynical, then he accepts his own certainty and becomes idealistic. Then considerations of time and resource availability limit the extent to which ideals can be applied to practice, so the person resorts to... pragmatism. And that's where you come in.