Differences between EII-INFj and IEE-ENFp

[XoX]

How would I know ENFp (NeFi) from INFj (FiNe) if I met one? How would I know them if we were out with a group of friends? What if it was a group of strangers? How would they be different in workplace? (add here whatever other forms of interaction comes to mind).

Any opinions on this one? Try to dig to the essence of this. Not superficial comments like "the amount of friends" or something. I want MORE!

If possible analyse the cases of intuitive and ethic subtypes separately! So there are four cases to analyse: ENFP(intuitive), ENFp(ethical), INFj(intuitive), INFj(ethical).

I could have put this in Delta but I thought this one would be better to share here. I'm really interested so please share your knowledge with me!

[schrödinger's cat]

I'm wondering about this myself, esp. about the difference between EN(F)p and I(N)Fj.

The only thing I've come up with so far is doing it the simple, old-fashioned, yucky MBTI kind of way: by trying to find out if you're E or I, and J or P. This website has a kind of checklist for Extraversion/Introversion and for Judging/Perceiving.

I'm not really happy with that method, though. It's a bit vague.

[Rick]

Some observations:

EII's tend to be more supportive and respond positively to other's initiative. IEE's are often indifferent to other's initiative (because they want to be the first to take initiative).

IEE's fear boredom and are constantly on the lookout for new objects (sources of information, people, situations) to satisfy their curiosity. You can recognize this trait by the fact that they rarely get completedly absorbed in any situation; their eye movements betray this -- scanning the room they're in instead of looking only at the people they're talking to. Also, they tend to jump in and out of conversation, entering when something catches their interest and then dropping out to reflect on something.

EII's are steadier in social situations and seem to get more absorbed in communication. They have less active eye movements and focus on listening carefully and sticking to the topic. They don't usually drop in and out like IEE's do, but are able to maintain a steady conversation with less fluctuation for a long time.

[yeves]

Some observations:

EII's tend to be more supportive and respond positively to other's initiative. IEE's are often indifferent to other's initiative (because they want to be the first to take initiative).

IEE's fear boredom and are constantly on the lookout for new objects (sources of information, people, situations) to satisfy their curiosity. You can recognize this trait by the fact that they rarely get completedly absorbed in any situation; their eye movements betray this -- scanning the room they're in instead of looking only at the people they're talking to. Also, they tend to jump in and out of conversation, entering when something catches their interest and then dropping out to reflect on something.

EII's are steadier in social situations and seem to get more absorbed in communication. They have less active eye movements and focus on listening carefully and sticking to the topic. They don't usually drop in and out like IEE's do, but are able to maintain a steady conversation with less fluctuation for a long time.

This is a very good observation imo. One way I could tell that my friend is IEE rather than EII is by noticing that she's not as attentive as "sincere" types are described.


IEEs defend their opinions with more energy in short bursts until they move on to something else.
EIIs are subtle but persistent and purposeful in their beliefs.

[Beautiful sky]

Some observations:

EII's tend to be more supportive and respond positively to other's initiative. IEE's are often indifferent to other's initiative (because they want to be the first to take initiative).

IEE's fear boredom and are constantly on the lookout for new objects (sources of information, people, situations) to satisfy their curiosity. You can recognize this trait by the fact that they rarely get completedly absorbed in any situation; their eye movements betray this -- scanning the room they're in instead of looking only at the people they're talking to. Also, they tend to jump in and out of conversation, entering when something catches their interest and then dropping out to reflect on something.

EII's are steadier in social situations and seem to get more absorbed in communication. They have less active eye movements and focus on listening carefully and sticking to the topic. They don't usually drop in and out like IEE's do, but are able to maintain a steady conversation with less fluctuation for a long time.

Yes I tend to talk less and listen more giving moral support

[Suz]

Some observations:

IEE's fear boredom and are constantly on the lookout for new objects (sources of information, people, situations) to satisfy their curiosity. You can recognize this trait by the fact that they rarely get completedly absorbed in any situation; their eye movements betray this -- scanning the room they're in instead of looking only at the people they're talking to.

Ive known ppl who do this, and i think its extremely rude. I hopevits not an iee thing....

[Suz]

Omgoodness is this your ej temperament showing?

Maybe.... I dont make it known to them in the moment, but it makes me feel like they would rather be elsewhere and are just talking to me for show. If im talking and they are doing it, then i feel they arent really listening.

[Slacker]

My sister is an INFj.

I am very expressive when I speak both in tone of voice and in hand movements. My sister speaks in not quite a monotone but not far off it. Also, I laugh out loud at jokes I find funny and she smiles and nods.

I'm not particularly concerned about clothing but my sister is *very* concerned about her appearance and spends a lot of time on it. I don't know if that's a type thing or what.

[Expat]

I'm not particularly concerned about clothing but my sister is *very* concerned about her appearance and spends a lot of time on it. I don't know if that's a type thing or what.

That is related to + , that is, short-range . For her it's part of her PoLR. For you it's part of your role function (together with - ).

So she basically over-compensates for her weakness in evaluating her own appeareance.

[Rick]

Here's some real life observations. I've noticed that I can inadvertantly be a mood-killer. People seem to clean up their language, and start acting more proper and subdued when I'm around. I don't know why. I try not to have that effect.

I have definitely noticed that in some EII's. I believe it can be very attractive to -types.

[schrödinger's cat]

So, to sum this up:

INFJs have short-range Se as PoLR --> dress very carefully. ENFps don't pay as much attention to their appearance.

INFJs are not very expressive of their emotions. They smile where ENFPs would laugh out loud. ENFPs are very expressive when they speak (tone of voice, gestures, movements).

INFjs are good listeners. They look people into the eyes and can focus on them for a long time. They also stay on topic for longer. People are likely to open up to INFJs and tell them their life-stories.
ENFps never get completely absorbed in any situation, since they're constantly on the lookout for something new and exciting (low boredom threshhold). When listening to someone, ENFPs don't focus only on whoever is talking to them; they also look at the room. They're also not as good at staying on topic. Sometimes they jump into a conversation when it becomes interesting to them, and drop out of it again to reflect on something.

INFJs are more supportive than ENFPs when others take the initiative.

[schrödinger's cat]

As for the subtypes, my guess is that there's a kind of scale involved, like this:

• IN(F)j --> I(N)Fj --> EN(F)p --> E(N)Fp
  
  Able to focus, doesn't show emotions -----> fidgety, expressive
  Fussy about own appearance ----> doesn't give a damn

I'm EN(F)p. Do we have any more of those, and also some I(N)Fjs? Those two subtypes are the closest together as far as functions are concerned. So trying to find out the difference between those two will show us where the dividing line between the two types is. Unless I'm totally mistaken, of course.

[Slacker]

Based on that, I'd be an E(N)Fp

[Expat]

Here's some real life observations. I've noticed that I can inadvertantly be a mood-killer. People seem to clean up their language, and start acting more proper and subdued when I'm around. I don't know why. I try not to have that effect.

I have definitely noticed that in some EII's. I believe it can be very attractive to -types.

Yes it is.

[Rick]

Yes it is.

Why? What about it is attractive to you?

[Expat]

Yes it is.

Why? What about it is attractive to you?

I thought you could tell me, since you pointed it out - -

For me, the effect Diana described is attractive because it reduces irrationality in the surroundings.

[Rick]

I thought you could tell me, since you pointed it out - -

I can try, but I thought it'd be cooler if you described it .

[Expat]

I thought you could tell me, since you pointed it out - -

I can try, but I thought it'd be cooler if you described it .

I dislike irrationality, what others might describe as "being spontaneous". For me that is one of the major aspects of my bad relationships with some XXXp types. I deeply dislike that "mood" where someone will just burst into song, just say whatever silly joke just crossed their mind, or whatever. So if someone has the effect of making people "act more proper and subdued", as Diana described, I'm grateful.

[Rick]

Many LSE's I know also have this thing about 'irrationality' (but not in the socionics sense). They would like the world to be properly ordered, with each person doing rational things, rationally expending their energy and resources, etc. in a way that promotes the order and well-being of society. EII's like Diana described seem like pillars of order in a crazy and imperfect society (it's funny, but looking at many LSE's, you often wouldn't guess that they dream of order and subduedness). In addition, such EII's are people you can 'confess' your subjective sentiments to and rid yourself of negative emotions that tend build up in LSE's.

[Expat]

I don't think it's the same for me as for the LSEs you are describing.

I've noticed that I can inadvertantly be a mood-killer. People seem to clean up their language, and start acting more proper and subdued when I'm around.

My interpretation of what Diana said here is that her presence acts as a check on excessive socionics irrationality, in very short-term, immediate situations. I wish I could learn this trick.

[LSEs] would like the world to be properly ordered, with each person doing rational things, rationally expending their energy and resources, etc. in a way that promotes the order and well-being of society.

Yes, but LSEs do that in an "accountant" manner. They tend to think that the way to reach proper efficiency is to improve the way things are being managed. That sounds too detail-oriented for LIEs.

That is why the way I related to what you said about was in the sense of socionics irrationality.

[XoX]

Good answers everyone! I'm pretty convinced that I'm E(N)Fp. I hope I can stick with this type at least for some time At the moment I feel pretty zen. So, sorry all other ENFps...It seems we are not duals after all But no worries, I still like you And ISTps prepare yourself...a new ENFp is in dA hOuSe and ready to eNtErTaIn YoU

P.S. I have been hanging in another forum for a week or so. I wanted to make people type me without me affecting the process so I didn't claim to be any type. Their immediate impression was xxFP...then ExFP...and pretty soon ENFP. And I didn't do aything to encourage them to choose that type! This is semi-scientific proof or something Well it was an MBTI forum but still...the main functions are NeFi anyways.

P.S.2 Is Transigent now really an INTj and my supervisor No wonder I piss him off lately. And now half the forum supervises me or something...dang. But the best part is I am benefactor to FDG and Expat

[Rick]

My interpretation of what Diana said here is that her presence acts as a check on excessive socionics irrationality, in very short-term, immediate situations. I wish I could learn this trick.

Hahaha, I only know of ways of putting a check on excessive rationality... look as amorphous as possible, respond to questions in as roundabout a way as possible and many seconds after they are asked, and look like you've got some physical discomfort inside that you're trying to get rid of .

[Rick]

Good answers everyone! I'm pretty convinced that I'm E(N)Fp. I hope I can stick with this type at least for some time At the moment I feel pretty zen. So, sorry all other ENFps...It seems we are not duals after all But no worries, I still like you And ISTps prepare yourself...a new ENFp is in dA hOuSe and ready to eNtErTaIn YoU

Oh no, all it takes is for someone to decide they're ENFP, and suddenly out come all these smileys :wink: . Xox has finally found his/her "inner child"... .

[XoX]

Trans and Rick you are putting me down You are making me have doubts again... Stop it already! I won't go back to being ISTp. It is just not me. I always felt like I only relate to part of the descriptions and I am somehow a failed ISTp for not being fully what I was "supposed" to be like. I won't stop being ENFp until someone can make a better case for some other type! I don't want to be typeless!!! It bugs me like nothing else I know the ethical subtype of ENFp is not much like me but the E(N)Fp description is very very accurate. I don't know how reliable the subtype description is but it is interesting how well it seems to match. So you can suck my mood ring for being such doubters!

[Rick]

Sorry, I wasn't putting you down, just noting all the smileys that suddenly appeared. I didn't mean to doubt your conclusions.

[schrödinger's cat]

I noticed that too. It's cute.

XoX, you're from Finland, right? Could that be one of the reasons you were a bit unsure of how to type yourself? Most type descriptions on the internet are from the USA or from Russia, and perhaps those countries are a bit more extraverted than Finland is. Where I come from, being introverted is seen as something positive, and that makes our own extraverted types less zany and head-in-the-clouds than those in the American type descriptions. So perhaps you weren't introverted at all, just Finnish? :wink:

[XoX]

Most type descriptions on the internet are from the USA or from Russia, and perhaps those countries are a bit more extraverted than Finland is.
...
So perhaps you weren't introverted at all, just Finnish? :wink:

Good point I think I am extroverted. I am always in the state of minor confusion of what I REALLY REALLY think but currently I have a strong sense of being extrovert in the way socionics defines it. And yes, in Finland being "too extroverted" is not good. You might end up not be taken seriously. I have seen this happening for example when a foreign lecturer (American, English for example) comes here and tries to keep a very "entertaining" lecture. The end result is often that he is perceived as an "entertainer" and not someone with a serious message. Italian introvert might easily be more outgoing and talkative than Finnish extrovert

About my type...I read about Ti and Te...In the end I might use Ti more than I know. This doesn't mean I'm not ENFp. It doesn't mean I'm not ISTp. But could I REALLY be ENTp or INTj/ISTj/ESTp or just someone who uses Ti occasionally...aaaargh

A quick poll: Who do you relate more in this discussion Chris (Te king) or Pat (Ti? or just anti-Te?) or neither. This is supposed to be a good example of how Te people use Te to set the rules and dominate discussions without actually analysing anything. Do you think this example is good or too simplistic? (Edit: this is not created by me, found it in the web and just copy-pasted it here)

Chris: "SPECIES CANNOT EVOLVE FROM OTHER SPECIES!! LIKE BEGETS LIKE!!! THAT IS A LAW OF NATURE!!!"

Pat: "To see how species can give rise to new species, consider the fact that offspring are not identical to their parents: there is always some slight variation. And consider the fact that unchecked population growth is exp--"

Chris: "VARIATION YES, BUT THEY ARE STILL OF THE SAME KIND!!! LIKE BEGETS LIKE!!! THAT IS A LAW OF NATURE!!!"

Pat: "If all the offspring survive and their offspring survive, and so on, the population will soon exceed the capacity of the environment to support them all: food, water, space, etc. So a great many of them will die, and--"

Chris: "YES MANY OF THE OFFSPRING DIE. DYING DOES NOT !!!CREATE!!! A NEW SPECIES!! THAT IS LOGICALLY OBVIOUS!!! THAT DOES NOT REFUTE LIKE BEGETS LIKE!!!"

Pat: "If you consider that the children's genes are not exact copies of the parents', you can see evidence of a family-tree relationship among species. Species that diverged from a common ancestor more recently would tend to have more of their genes in common. The fact that humans and chimpanzees have about 98% of their genes in common suggests that--"

Chris: "A CLOUD IS 100% WATER AND A WATERMELON IS 98% WATER. DOES THAT PROVE THAT CLOUDS AND WATERMELONS WERE BORN FROM A COMMON ANCESTOR?"

Pat: "Of course not. You also have to consider the way inheritance works and how there is always selective pressure on a population. You can't expect to understand evolution by taking each fact out of context!"

Chris: "HA HA!! YOU LOSE!!! YOU CAN'T REFUTE MY ARGUMENT!!!"

P.S. Hugs and kisses to Transigent :/

[FDG]

Oh Christ, now I understand how I come off to other people HAHAHAHA


Anyway, Matti, I've always thought about you as an F type!

[Beautiful sky]

My IEE friend talks more than I do. She's way more fashionable and tastefully dressed than I am. She's prettier…All of my IEE friends are gorgeous. I'm not that pretty. I dress like I NEED to be covered up. I don't like to stand out so I wear what's in my avatar (muted tones, farmer lady clothes) minus the hat. Hat is for super hot days. My IEE friends are better at designing a place fast and are better at identifying the necessitates. I don't know what to do with objects and coordinating tones even if someone put a gun to my head (this is because I'm built to support a dual who is great at designing and thus I don't compete). I think they are as sensitive and kind as I am. They are as smart as I am but their smarts is visible due to their extraverted nature as often they are speaking about the things they know while I'm more choosy with when I say what as my psyche is geared towards taking things in and listening to support. @Eliza Thomason

I need a lot of sensory support. I get that from my ESE and LSE relations. For example I get my sister who picks out a skimpy white dress and my bf who picks out this pretty bright pink sweater.

[Eliza Thomason]

My IEE friend talks more than I do. .

With my EII sis-in-law this is true in some situations. I am certainly more bold when we are out and about. I'll just do/say a thing for her if she is hesitant. Once we were at a huge greenhouse in the spring, buying plants for our homes. She had very carefully chosen some hanging basket and it was for a particular spot but it was the last one left of this type of lovely flower, in this huge green house filled with plants, and she was so pleased with her choice, and with her eye for finding the last one, too. After wandering off for my plants I came back and it was gone from her cart. She told me this other woman took it from her cart when she walked away to talk to her young ones. I know she is precise and sure on things, too. She showed me, across the expanse, the women disappearing into the indoor part with her plant, and with her husband and kids. So I followed her! She picked up speed, too, disappearing with her family down an aisle. I caught up, and said, "Excuse me, you have my friends plant. It was the last one and it was in her cart" And I took it and brought it back to my EII sis-in-law. I don't know what came over me. I just suddenly get this sense of injustice, and I want to act now, to fix it. In other situations I am restricted and wary to speak up, but in this, the boldness just takes over.

But when we are at her house, I listen way more and she talks way more. She likes to tell a story from very beginning to very end with all the details (she has an elephants's memory). And I listen.

She's way more fashionable and tastefully dressed than I am. She's prettier…All of my IEE friends are gorgeous. I'm not that pretty. I dress like I NEED to be covered up. I don't like to stand out so I wear what's in my avatar (muted tones, farmer lady clothes) minus the hat. Hat is for super hot days.

Aw, thats nice to say of IEEs. I don't consider myself gorgeous but capable of bringing out my best. But you are gorgeous yourself. I don't dress to stand out (more a SEE trait, or ESE, in my experience). But I can put a good outfit together when I try. But usually I just want to be comfortable.

My IEE friends are better at designing a place fast and are better at identifying the necessitates. I don't know what to do with objects and coordinating tones even if someone put a gun to my head (this is because I'm built to support a dual who is great at designing and thus I don't compete).

I do design well. I like to help others design. EII have a good sense for it, but also they welcome my help with it, which I do like to give (when asked).

I think they are as sensitive and kind as I am. They are as smart as I am but their smarts is visible due to their extraverted nature as often they are speaking about the things they know while I'm more choosy with when I say what as my psyche is geared towards taking things in and listening to support.

Yes, sometimes I have been mistaken for being smarter than I am. I's in general often have a lot of smarts that others just don't see.

[Emmym]

With my EII sis-in-law this is true in some situations. I am certainly more bold when we are out and about. I'll just do/say a thing for her if she is hesitant. Once we were at a huge greenhouse in the spring, buying plants for our homes. She had very carefully chosen some hanging basket and it was for a particular spot but it was the last one left of this type of lovely flower, in this huge green house filled with plants, and she was so pleased with her choice, and with her eye for finding the last one, too. After wandering off for my plants I came back and it was gone from her cart. She told me this other woman took it from her cart when she walked away to talk to her young ones. I know she is precise and sure on things, too. She showed me, across the expanse, the women disappearing into the indoor part with her plant, and with her husband and kids. So I followed her! She picked up speed, too, disappearing with her family down an aisle. I caught up, and said, "Excuse me, you have my friends plant. It was the last one and it was in her cart" And I took it and brought it back to my EII sis-in-law. I don't know what came over me. I just suddenly get this sense of injustice, and I want to act now, to fix it. In other situations I am restricted and wary to speak up, but in this, the boldness just takes over.

But when we are at her house, I listen way more and she talks way more. She likes to tell a story from very beginning to very end with all the details (she has an elephants's memory). And I listen.

So true. I talk soooo much more than my IEE bestie sometimes when it's just us. But when we're in "her" space or others are around, I can be embarrassingly quiet, lol. People just assume I must be pissed off or something.

[XoX]

Anyway, Matti, I've always thought about you as an F type!

That is NOT a comment about my logical analysis (in)abilities is it? I try to take it more as a compliment though it could be understood in more than one way

[FDG]

Anyway, Matti, I've always thought about you as an F type!

That is NOT a comment about my logical analysis (in)abilities is it? I try to take it more as a compliment though it could be understood in more than one way

No. I've noticed that every time two people started to argue on the chat, you tried to keep "harmony". I wasn't referring to your logic at all.

[XoX]

Anyway, Matti, I've always thought about you as an F type!

That is NOT a comment about my logical analysis (in)abilities is it? I try to take it more as a compliment though it could be understood in more than one way

No. I've noticed that every time two people started to argue on the chat, you tried to keep "harmony". I wasn't referring to your logic at all.

I know You are too nice to be mean, hehe. But that is a good point. I sometimes get heated up enough to become argumentative but usually I dislike conflict especially if it gets "emotional" in any way. Conflicts in my environment can make me really tense inside. If it goes on too long I get really irritated and stressed. I somehow internalize all negative vibes even if I'm not directly involved.

[Serious Name]

I dont think I know any IEEs and just one EII, but being new to this I'm not exactly sure if I got it right. I know there is no well defined list of things to look for, but I'm curious as to what can tip me off as to whether someone is IEE or EII.

[UDP]

Look for me, I'll be around them.

[1981slater]

Some random traits that come to my mind...

IEE: open minded, mild, flexible, good listener, fun to be around, messy, unrealiable, two-faced, funny

EII: quiet, shy, original, demanding, dependable, dutiful, distrustful

[UDP]

If you know enough about how Fe valuing people and Fi valuing people act, then it should be easier to know what they are NOT like.

Granted, the Ne subtypes of both IEE and EII might seem more alpha, but the Fi subtypes generally have a subdued emotional form of expression.

The delta NFs generally dislike any sort of crudeness particularly in dealing with others.

[Mattie]

Some random traits that come to my mind...

IEE: open minded, mild, flexible, good listener, fun to be around, messy, unrealiable, two-faced, funny

EII: quiet, shy, original, demanding, dependable, dutiful, distrustful

I at least find the negative ones for ENFp to be a little too stereotyped. I know my strengths and weaknesses, and being unreliable isn't a weakness of mine, and two-faced is stretching it as well.

ENFps like to come up with ideas, wild and imaginative ones that they don't mind sounding silly or illogical, when they are in a group of people they are comfortable with. For me personally, I seem to always stand out even when I don't mean to, though I'm not really a loud person. Most people I know tell me I have a calming presence, even though I'm an upbeat person. I think it stems from having this open-minded and accepting demeanor. One way someone could tell my type is confront me with , and I think this is the same for all ENFps. I can slightly handle better in a short amount of time, because a lot of my friends are Alphas and I got used to it, but I'll never get used to . I get defensive or find it inappropriate, sometimes I'll physically wince when there's large amount of unwanted & around.

Oh yeah, once I'm started, I never shut up

[Serious Name]

ENFps like to come up with ideas, wild and imaginative ones that they don't mind sounding silly or illogical, when they are in a group of people they are comfortable with. For me personally, I seem to always stand out even when I don't mean to, though I'm not really a loud person. Most people I know tell me I have a calming presence, even though I'm an upbeat person. I think it stems from having this open-minded and accepting demeanor. One way someone could tell my type is confront me with , and I think this is the same for all ENFps. I can slightly handle better in a short amount of time, because a lot of my friends are Alphas and I got used to it, but I'll never get used to . I get defensive or find it inappropriate, sometimes I'll physically wince when there's large amount of unwanted & around.

Oh yeah, once I'm started, I never shut up

ENFPs have a Ti PoLR, right? What does a Ti conversation sound like to you?