Some Literary Socionics

[Creepy-Diana]

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[silverchris9]

that video was brilliant.

I haven't read Anna Karenina... (sadface). I think I'm going to next semester though.

I'm reading T.S. Eliot now, and I can't get a bead on his type. I think I've said before that based on the few facts I know about his life, I suspect EII (although that typing is thrown somewhat into doubt by my new suspicion that Ezra Pound was an LSI... and SLI just doesn't seem to make sense for him, despite the fact that Pound and Eliot's relationship seems like an activity partnership). So, I don't know.

[silverchris9]

So, lately I've been reading the following authors/books:

Plato's Symposium, Aristotle's Metaphysics, William Carlos William's poetry, and a few others. Here are some thoughts:

I am more and more confirmed in my opinion that Plato was ILI and Aristotle was LII. First of all, Plato's concern with an account of the what-it-is of something seems to me a crucially Ni concern. Also the idea that Plato believed in the world of the forms as separate from the physical world seems very Ni, and the idea that Aristotle brought those forms back down into each individual object, as the sum of a specific set of properties seems VERY Ti to me (a thing is its catalog of properties).

William Carlos Williams is an SLI, I think, the only problem being that I also see apparent Fe valuing in him, and he's supposed to be an Fe polr, so... but his focus on external objects, describing them in a sensory way, stripping things of context, metaphor, allusion, etc. seems very Si + Te.

Also, I am forced to concede that Ezra Pound was *definitely* beta, almost certainly LSI, which is annoying, but whatever. I'm still not willing to accept T.S. Eliot into my quadra though. He must be gamma. But he's probably not delta either. I mean, small chance, but probably not.

In the Symposium, I believe Socrates to be IEI and Alcibiades to be a stereotypical SLE (wild n' crazy young man but also ridiculously talented general/leader). The way Alcibiades describes Socrates' power over him seems very much like an SLE describing a relation to an IEI: I think he's dual-seeking Ni when he talks about how he loves Socrates' "wisdom". And I've noticed that SLEs are attracted to IEIs (or aggressors to victims in general) when they notice that victim partner is actually stronger than they let on, as when Alcibiades talks about Socrates' surprising prowess in battle. Socrates is also crazy diplomatic but also subtly (and not-so-subtly) sarcastic, which I think is an IEI trait. Anyway, I just really want Socrates to be IEI.

Also, I'm continuing to seek out poets who are not IEIs, because I know there are plenty. It's hard to tell Wordsworth's type but he seems almost definitely Si-leading. Shelley was probably an IEI (he actually reminds me somewhat of strrrng's posts on this site), but Byron almost certainly was not. I'm not sure what type he was yet, but he seems not-IEI. Keats was a dead-on, straight-away, unquestionable IEI. Like the archetype of the modern IEI. Coleridge I don't know much about but he's probably not IEI either. In fact, I'm 95% sure he's a logical type, small possibility he's ILI, but that makes the intertype relationship with Wordsworth odd. Also, I think of Wordsworth and Coleridge as the Lennon and McCartney of Romantic Poetry.

Also, I need to stop typing so many people as IEI-SLE duals. That's getting a little obsessive on my part. But duality in literature is so much fun!

Oh, and Chaucer's Wyf of Bath is probably an SEE. She's AMAZINGLY hilarious. The Pardoner I'm not sure about but he may be an Iago-style evil IEI (I'm really pretty sure that Iago is IEI and Othello is LSI and Desdemona is either IEI or EIE--probably the former). But I *really* don't know.

Antony in Antony and Cleopatra is SEE and Cleopatra is an EIE. Augustus is probably LSE, although the way the soothsayer describes Antony and Augustus' relationship, I was really thinking that Augustus might be Antony's supervisor. ESIs are cool.

D.H. Lawrence was probably IEE. In fact, I'm almost 100% certain that he's IEE, because he's clearly Ne leading, and probably not logical although ILE is still a possibility. The only problem with this reading of him is his poem "The British Are So Nice!" which clearly satirizes Victorian-style Fi.

I've already said this, but I am almost 100% sure that Mercutio can be read as an SLE. He's legit. Juliet appears to be an IEI, but I'm not sure. She's obviously some sort of NF, and I think one can rule out IEE. "Oh, I have an ill-divining soul," makes me think Ni, but I guess plot devices aren't great for determining type! I still think romeo is an Fe-seeking LSI, but I could be wrong there. Se-creative *really* fits for him though, as he is quite proficient at effecting his will, but only does so as a side-thing, when necessary. I would also believe Se-demonstrative, though. The Nurse is a brilliantly, brilliantly written character, and is almost certainly a stereotypical ESE. She's *brilliant*.

Also... perhaps Mrs. Bennet's Si is in her high regard for the soldier's appearance, perhaps? I mean, I know that sexual attraction is a universal thing, but Mrs. Bennet seems to be particularly interested in fine houses, fine dresses, fine-looking men, etc. And she appears to be attracted to them primarily based on their appearance, rather than the implications or aura that gives off (I'm not saying Si-egos are superficial, but merely that they are perhaps more inclined to appreciate physical beauty as a good in itself, as opposed to a masculine body as a metaphor/trope/symbol for masculinity, or a feminine body as a metaphor/trope/symbol for femininity).

[silverchris9]

This installment of literary socionics with chris: Sophocles, Shakespeare (emphasis on King Lear), Socrates, T.S. Eliot, and August: Osage County

I really want Socrates (at least the literary character presented by Plato, if not the historical man himself whose type is probably irretrievable at this point) to be an IEI. I have almost 0 proof for this, but that's what I want.

The more I think about it, the more ILI fits for T.S. Eliot. He has a very overarching historical focus in his poetry, and *clearly* values Fi. Honestly, IEI is a possibility, but only because of the (slim) possibility that Eliot was a Ti valuer. I need to do some more research to determine Fe/Ti vs. The other reason this makes sense is because his wife (as satirized in section three of The Waste Land) comes off as an ESE. Viv and Tom would make a lot of a sense as an ILI-ESE conflictor couple. Also, the line "I know 'those are the pearls that were his eyes'" is one of the most devastating and beautiful lines in the English Language, and as much as I hate T.S. Eliot for his horrifying poetics (any man who could judge Hamlet an "aesthetic failure" is beyond question off his rocker), he was a damn good poet.

I really need to study Sophocles. He manages to make excellent dramatic characters out of Oedipus, a clear (paradigmatic?) LSE, and Antigone, a clear (paradigmatic?) EII. Contrast this to Shakespeare who relied upon beta characters almost 100% of the time for his most memorable figures. Some exceptions include Antony--even though the play belongs firmly to Cleopatra--Beatrice and Benedick--ILI and SEE respectively--and of course, Cordelia. From what little I know of Rosalind of As You Like It, she is a possible delta as well (but also a possible IEI; I haven't read the play, just lots of information about it).

King Lear is an SLE. Like, 100% manifest clear example of both the wonders and the weaknesses of an SLE. Maybe the best portrait (and most dramatic story) of Fi-polr ever. They should teach it to little children learning socioncs (God I hope we never teach little children socionics). He exhibits Achilles style need for Fe confirmation of his (Ti) hierarchical status as the (Se) best. Cordelia, on the other hand, is an EII (very small chance ESI; I need to finish the play to tell for sure), and it was a stroke of genius to put the two together in the same play. Kent is an IEI or possibly EIE, but definitely beta. Not sure on Edmund and Edgar yet.

It would be very interesting to type Falstaff, but I suspect he is as perfectly typeless as Hamlet. The guess would be EIE or ESE, but both of those are off somehow (and yet you cannot fault Falstaff as a comic representation in any way shape or form at all whatsoever).

I just saw August: Osage County the other day, and while I was doing my best to not let socionics take me out of the play and thereby ruin my experience (I was aided greatly in this task by Tracy Letts' *excellent* sense of drama), I did make some socionics-related observations. First of all, this is clearly yet another betas-gone-amuck story, wherein the crazy betas trample all over some foolish alphas, gammas, and deltas. Violet is one of my favorite types, the evil IEI (I only like them because they remind me not to become one but also that I could if I really wanted to), and she is *amazing*. She's like one big arsenal of emotional nuclear weapons, and she exhibits so many IEI traits that it's hilarious, including the notorious focus on time. Poor Bev was probably an ILE driven crazy by Violet's utter disregard for and destruction of the poor man's Si. Barb is hard to type but possibly Se-ego, and almost definitely beta. Also, women who run things are hot. Barb was a complete bitch for half of the show and I still thought that she was a milf the whole time (God, I'm strange). When she screamed at Violet at the end of the second act, I wanted to jump out of my chair and cheer for her violently. Jonna is typeless because she's not really a personality. Uncle Charles is a strong, healthy LSE, the only type that could withstand Violet's crazy, scheming, evil-IEI ways. His wife was IEE. But he was also boring as shit (jk. sorta). Little Charles is either EII or SEI, but definitely an Ne-Si introvert. The sister that was in love with him was an alpha introvert, while the (superhumanly irritating) other sister was the devil's ESE. (or small chance IEE; either way, she was the most annoying character in the play and I kept hoping that Barb or Violet would just punch her in the face). Barb's (ex-)husband is a gamma introvert, leaning towards ILI.

[Marie84]

Also... perhaps Mrs. Bennet's Si is in her high regard for the soldier's appearance, perhaps? I mean, I know that sexual attraction is a universal thing, but Mrs. Bennet seems to be particularly interested in fine houses, fine dresses, fine-looking men, etc. And she appears to be attracted to them primarily based on their appearance, rather than the implications or aura that gives off (I'm not saying Si-egos are superficial, but merely that they are perhaps more inclined to appreciate physical beauty as a good in itself, as opposed to a masculine body as a metaphor/trope/symbol for masculinity, or a feminine body as a metaphor/trope/symbol for femininity).

This could also be seen as status seeking rather than Si, which is sort of what Mrs. Bennet prioritized.
Although I don't think she's a good example of ESE or EIE, more like a character of certain women from that era, the gossiping mother-hens, forever seeking a way to climb the social ladder

[silverchris9]

This could also be seen as status seeking rather than Si, which is sort of what Mrs. Bennet prioritized.
Although I don't think she's a good example of ESE or EIE, more like a character of certain women from that era, the gossiping mother-hens, forever seeking a way to climb the social ladder

I agree with the latter statement, and am unsure about the former.

In other news, I have FINALLY found an assuredly non-IEI major poet (yes, I had settled on ILI for Stevens, but the more the merrier, right). Alfred Tennyson was definitely not IEI, and probably EII (LII is also a possibility). Here's a line that especially makes me think EII: "my strength is as the strength of ten/because my heart is pure." But maybe I'm just trying to ascribe that to EIIs rather than IEIs 'cause it's incredibly cheesy. Also, in all likelihood, Arthur Henry Hallam was his dual, or at least a semi-dual or activity relation, so it would be interesting to type him, but there's not enough info on wikipedia. Anyway, I'm 99.99997% sure that Tennyson was not IEI, so victory for that.