Duals dislike eachother more often than expected

[Jarno]

Today I saw it again.

This situation actually happened twice with the same types.

A shy INFj walked away from the group, without saying that she was going home.
The ESTj said afterwards, that it was totally unsocial of her, and kept talking about it for a while.

It's only when duals interact with eachother that they start a likening in eachother. Otherwise it's often that they don't like eachother. I remember an SEE at my work who hated 'nerds' (that hurt me! :-)

A SLE friend of mine truly hates 'those fucking idealists' (I guess IEI's can be seen like that)

So duals always dislike eachother, except when in close interaction together.

[pluie]

shit.
*sigh*:/

/

lol.

[leckysupport]

Yeah, I've heard ESEs say they hate nerds too. But then they always have a contradictory nerdy best friend... thus confirming my world view.

[Jarno]

Yeah, I've heard ESEs say they hate nerds too. But then they always have a contradictory nerdy best friend... thus confirming my world view.

yep, I know such an ESE too.

Strange they say they hate nerds, but yet they are clearly friends with them... But again, only because she had close interaction with him. Otherwise...he would be just a nerd to her.

[Lobo]

So duals always dislike eachother, except when in close interaction together.

Don't you think this is overgeneralizing a bit?

I can see though how some misunderstandings can occur when not in close interaction.

[stevENTj]

The one SEE girl I've known despised me, but she really had a secret crush on me.

[Creepy-male]

By this reasoning, I would be IEI. I would be even more IEI when interacting with SLEs, too.

[Logos]

I'm not sure if duality should be conceptualized in terms of the types which like each other the best, but rather, in terms of how well they transmit and process information between them.

[Nexus]

There is a probably a strong subconscious bond between duals that makes them feel emotionally or ethically invested in each other without regard to context; however, the polarity of how they feel about each other consciously can fluctuate wildly depending on the circumstances; for instance, children will often tease and pick on their crushes. I believe that is possibly due to the ego and superid interference that occurs when duals are present. Though duals do not share ideological optimism or consciousness of temperament, they both are either process or result, meaning that they will behave similarly over a long interval of time due to the the direction of phenomenal response as though intertwined by fate; since they share quadra values, they will also respond at nearly the same time, and because they share rationality, they will have complementing accepting and creative ego functions that constitute a shared channel in which specific information produced by one may interefere contextually with the other's unconscious IM. In duals, the temperament switch causes the vital functions of one to be aligned to the mental functions of the other, so one is potentially subconsciously manifesting simultaneously what the other is manifesting consciously, often giving the effect of finishing each other's sentences. The opposing optimistisms will keep the relationship from becoming stale or stagnant, and the temperament switch will keep one dual from continuously irritating the ego IM of the other. Because the superego of one reflects the id of the other, accumulated habits and biases will also complement and reinforce each other's driving impulses; for instance, superid IM which supports feedback for the id will be supported naturally and excessively by the conscious functions of the dual, creating mutual benefit, reinforcement, and interest. Because the conscious functions mainly produce denial of the unconscious by changing the direction of the IM of the subconscious functions, one may feel as though they are understood best by their dual, to whom nearly exclusively the denial is far less consciously apparent than the motive, and who is always consciously supporting that subconscious IM of the first which is most secretly yearned but least realized. For this reason, socially blind emotional (id) and ethical (superego) responses may override the common courtesy, etiquette, and other civilities normally processed (and more highly socially valued within the quadra) by the ego and superid.

Wow, looking back at this really makes me feel IEI...

[Krig the Viking]

It's only when duals interact with eachother that they start a likening in eachother. Otherwise it's often that they don't like eachother.

This is the entire premise of Pride & Prejudice, as well as many other romance stories.

[Marie84]

This is the entire premise of Pride & Prejudice, as well as many other romance stories.

P&P is an excellent example of how duality unfolds

[Jarno]

It's happened to me - I tend to see SLE males as brainless jocks until I interact with them

good, another confirmation.

[Jarno]

I see it happen pretty often though most of the time, my duals like me right off the bat. .

yes especially male duals (same gender as me) tend to like me right away, but it's more often the girls that don't like me (in the beginning).

[717495]

I can just tell this is true, but I'm not sure if they associate the same things, like nerd behavior, with both ILIs and LIIs, or all NTs, however I'm not a nerd. I think these specific examples are stereotypes and don't correlate directly with socionics. Especially in my specific case, and I tend acquaint with some nerds too. Yet the general idea, or feeling I have about it, is true from my experience.

[Azeroffs]

I think the main reason for this is that duals are extremely different. They're basically from entirely different worlds as far as what they do and how they act. INTx/ESFx is the best example of this.

[Nexus]

I think the main reason for this is that duals are extremely different. They're basically from entirely different worlds as far as what they do and how they act. INTx/ESFx is the best example of this.

Not too true, among the democrats one drives the other to create - NTs use science (value of functionality) to create art (value of aesthetics), as technology and propaganda exist primarily to enhance comfort and inspire emotion, whereas SFs use art to create a science based on its elements, such as political theory or music theory, or even astronomy (you have to value what you sense before it has enough meaning to inspire thought and intuition); the superid is just as functional as the ego but less expressive because it is asleep, it dreams but does not accomplish anything separately from the ego. If you look at historical movements in philosophy, such as the renaissance or romanticism or communism, the 2 are always tied - one drives the other to keep each half from becoming stagnant; among autocrats it is about NF morale (cause) and ST pragmatism (effect).

[UDP]

So duals always dislike eachother, except when in close interaction together.

And even with the title of the thread "duals dislike each other more than expected" - depends on what you're expecations are. It sounds like you're actually figuring things out for yourself, rather than proclaiming some unknown truth to the rest of the ignorant world.

[Jarno]

And even with the title of the thread "duals dislike each other more than expected" - depends on what you're expecations are. It sounds like you're actually figuring things out for yourself, rather than proclaiming some unknown truth to the rest of the ignorant world.

I'm just trying to create a response.

[Logos]

Not too true, among the democrats one drives the other to create - NTs use science (value of functionality) to create art (value of aesthetics), as technology and propaganda exist primarily to enhance comfort and inspire emotion, whereas SFs use art to create a science based on its elements, such as political theory or music theory, or even astronomy (you have to value what you sense before it has enough meaning to inspire thought and intuition); the superid is just as functional as the ego but less expressive because it is asleep, it dreams but does not accomplish anything separately from the ego. If you look at historical movements in philosophy, such as the renaissance or romanticism or communism, the 2 are always tied - one drives the other to keep each half from becoming stagnant; among autocrats it is about NF morale (cause) and ST pragmatism (effect).

You are perhaps missing Azeroffs basic point that the INTx and the ESFx almost stand in opposite corners of the social spheres so it is easy for them to miss each other quite easily.

[Krig the Viking]

You are perhaps missing Azeroffs basic point that the INTx and the ESFx almost stand in opposite corners of the social spheres so it is easy for them to miss each other quite easily.

True.

[Blaze]

Not too true, among the democrats one drives the other to create - NTs use science (value of functionality) to create art (value of aesthetics), as technology and propaganda exist primarily to enhance comfort and inspire emotion, whereas SFs use art to create a science based on its elements, such as political theory or music theory, or even astronomy (you have to value what you sense before it has enough meaning to inspire thought and intuition); the superid is just as functional as the ego but less expressive because it is asleep, it dreams but does not accomplish anything separately from the ego. If you look at historical movements in philosophy, such as the renaissance or romanticism or communism, the 2 are always tied - one drives the other to keep each half from becoming stagnant; among autocrats it is about NF morale (cause) and ST pragmatism (effect).

nevertheless, these are very cool ideas and observations.

[UDP]

I'm just trying to create a response.

Roy's got a response for you:

[electric sheep]

You are perhaps missing Azeroffs basic point that the INTx and the ESFx almost stand in opposite corners of the social spheres so it is easy for them to miss each other quite easily.

but they always manage to cross paths. It's inevitable.

[Khola aka Bee]

I can sympathise with this - the dual that is currently in my sights has been in and around my social circles for coming up 7 years and when I first met him I wanted to strangle him (heheh) but the more time I spend around him, the more I value him - I see him as an indispensable part of my life now. It certainly provides some real social oddities. *giggle*

[Joy]

Roy's got a response for you:

Roy Responds

Wow. Dubs sucks.

Except, of course, for the ninja info cards scene.

[redbaron]

There is a probably a strong subconscious bond between duals that makes them feel emotionally or ethically invested in each other without regard to context; however, the polarity of how they feel about each other consciously can fluctuate wildly depending on the circumstances; for instance, children will often tease and pick on their crushes. I believe that is possibly due to the ego and superid interference that occurs when duals are present. Though duals do not share ideological optimism or consciousness of temperament, they both are either process or result, meaning that they will behave similarly over a long interval of time due to the the direction of phenomenal response as though intertwined by fate; since they share quadra values, they will also respond at nearly the same time, and because they share rationality, they will have complementing accepting and creative ego functions that constitute a shared channel in which specific information produced by one may interefere contextually with the other's unconscious IM. In duals, the temperament switch causes the vital functions of one to be aligned to the mental functions of the other, so one is potentially subconsciously manifesting simultaneously what the other is manifesting consciously, often giving the effect of finishing each other's sentences. The opposing optimistisms will keep the relationship from becoming stale or stagnant, and the temperament switch will keep one dual from continuously irritating the ego IM of the other. Because the superego of one reflects the id of the other, accumulated habits and biases will also complement and reinforce each other's driving impulses; for instance, superid IM which supports feedback for the id will be supported naturally and excessively by the conscious functions of the dual, creating mutual benefit, reinforcement, and interest. Because the conscious functions mainly produce denial of the unconscious by changing the direction of the IM of the subconscious functions, one may feel as though they are understood best by their dual, to whom nearly exclusively the denial is far less consciously apparent than the motive, and who is always consciously supporting that subconscious IM of the first which is most secretly yearned but least realized. For this reason, socially blind emotional (id) and ethical (superego) responses may override the common courtesy, etiquette, and other civilities normally processed (and more highly socially valued within the quadra) by the ego and superid.

Wow, looking back at this really makes me feel IEI...

this is great. wow.

and despite the cold analytical feel to this post, it makes me want to cry.

[Danielle]

I was thinking about this over the weekend, while I was out of town at an extended family gathering. It struck me that duality may be more beneficial the closer the psychological distance between the parties, which is the opposite of conflicting relations.

[UDP]

I am hesitant to label relationships as 'beneficial' or not.

[silverchris9]

You could reframe the word "beneficial" as meaning "expressing more of the potentials of a dual interpersonal relationship as described by the theory."

It took twoish years before I became friends with my I-think-SLE friend, and I don't know that I'm close friends with any other SLEs.

One possible influence to this is how many interactions one has had with activity/dual as opposed to superego/conflictor. Since quasi-identicals are superficially similar, one who has spent a lot of time with superegos or conflictors may learn through conditionally to consciously or subconsciously associate certain superficial traits shared by quasi-identical pairs with negative experiences, so that they avoid both quasi-identicals. For example, an SLE who has spent a lot of time around EIIs and little around IEIs may see an IEI's idealism as similar to the EII's brand of moral idealism, and this may turn him or her off of the IEI, not because of how the IEI is, but because the IEI reminds him/her of a similar but extremely unpleasant individual/situation/expereince/etc.

[UDP]

You could reframe the word "beneficial" as meaning "expressing more of the potentials of a dual interpersonal relationship as described by the theory."

And what are the potentials as described by the theory?

...?

The potential to have a wonderful, great relationship with someone else?
I have very good relationships with people from a few types.


Really, though, I see how it's much easier to say "duals get along well" than try to be positive and less normative, and detach "good/bad" from explanations. That's how I talk about things when I'm introducing people to socionics myself. I wanted to comment that there is (and should be) a more advanced and more objective interpretation of what dual relationships are, as there seems to be a trend to think that duality = relational bliss. I don't think, however, that Danielle particularly is a person to believe that duality = bliss; I wasn't trying to correct her, per se.

[silverchris9]

I dunno. Basically, the information you put out is received well, and the information you receive is packaged how you like it. Some possible feelings and benefits that may flow from this include comfort, ease of communication, and the warm-fuzzies.

It's hard to describe because it's hard to transcend one's own prejudices/expectations. I very nearly used the phrase "they get shit done" in trying to describe what is positive about dual relationships, but of course this is something that an IEI would like especially about an SLE. Anyway, what am I doing justifying the concept of duality to you? Ask the lady who made it up. (She's dead though, right?)


EDIT: Ah, once I saw your edit (or my computer loaded the whole page, I'm not sure) I understood what you were getting at. True. There should be something better than vague duality = better crap.

[betterthandead]

Most likely subtype differences. I dislike my own subtype (Ti) as well as my dual's subtype which doesn't correlate to mine. (Let's say Si), I view Si's as rather self indulgent in their own sensory perceptions rather than being communicative and thoughtful like an (Fe) would.

Today I saw it again.

This situation actually happened twice with the same types.

A shy INFj walked away from the group, without saying that she was going home.
The ESTj said afterwards, that it was totally unsocial of her, and kept talking about it for a while.

It's only when duals interact with eachother that they start a likening in eachother. Otherwise it's often that they don't like eachother. I remember an SEE at my work who hated 'nerds' (that hurt me! :-)

A SLE friend of mine truly hates 'those fucking idealists' (I guess IEI's can be seen like that)

So duals always dislike eachother, except when in close interaction together.

[DirectorAbbie]

Maybe when they say they hate nerds, what they really mean is that they'd hate to be a nerd.

[crazedrat]

I think they're actually trying to describe their conflictor and their words are quasi relating to their dual.

[Jarno]

I think they're actually trying to describe their conflictor and their words are quasi relating to their dual.

yes that might also be possible.

[chip]

Maybe when they say they hate nerds, what they really mean is that they'd hate to be a nerd.

impressive! so true!

as for the topic at hand, your right in so far as ESTJ can be critical of INFJ but then again that is ESTJ for ya, and if you know a INFJ personally, they don't care, in a strange way, they may even like that someone notices them leaving. At the same time most people usually shake hands or wave.

I'm not sure which website posted this except that it was a russian socionics site, I found it on another forum about activity partners being more loyal. They listed duality descriptions by different socionic authors and in one, it contained an interesting point that extroverted ethicals and introverted logics have a hard time pairing up. In fact they mentioned many extroverted ethicals can not wait and marry sooner than any other type, often marrying another extroverted ethical. By extroverted ethical they meant ESE, EIE, IEE, SEE and their corresponding duals as introverted logicals.

As for the eternal struggle between nerds and jocks, or mind and body, ESE will likely revert to their role function Te in interpreting LII behaviour Ti. I will never forget one ESE totally turning me down because I was not her type. Even currently I work with a female ESE who is married to a large bruit. She keeps attacking my masculinity because I'm skinny and not high on testostrone. There is another ESE girl who was semi-interested in me but once I tried text messaging her, she never texted back, and the next time I talked to her she hinted that I'm werid. She is now dating a ESE who fits the stereotypical masucline ideal as seen on tv. He is a man-whore but then again so is she. These ESE in particular are superficial. That's my testimony.

in so far as going along with the general theory yes duals need close intimate interaction in order to really understand the others point of view. Why did the INFJ walk away, the ESTJ has no idea.

[ragnar]

most of the time, my duals like me right off the bat.

That may be because you're nice and charming, and people around you - regardless of type - are agreeable. Those factors may vary from person to person and from location to location I guess.

My experience among the backwards tribes I live among is that I find my duals on average even more despicable than the rest.

[Blaze]

yes...there is def love hate between duals. it's what energizes the relation and makes each partner able to control the other in a way. they have you cornered...and you have them squared in a game of equals. to a lesser extent, same with illusionary and semi dual.

[discojoe]

yes...there is def love hate between duals. it's what energizes the relation and makes each partner able to control the other in a way. they have you cornered...and you have them squared in a game of equals. to a lesser extent, same with illusionary and semi dual.

Yeah, and I notice that duals tend to attack each other's emotional complexes in a way that is uncomfortable but also allows each dual to retain their dignity, since you don't feel "defeated" when you give in and admit that they're right. You almost feel liberated instead. Very therapeutic.

[Blaze]

Yeah, and I notice that duals tend to attack each other's emotional complexes in a way that is uncomfortable but also allows each dual to retain their dignity, since you don't feel "defeated" when you give in and admit that they're right. You almost feel liberated instead. Very therapeutic.

exactly!