The Fundamental Empirical Basis for Socionics

[Nexus]

First I would like to declare that my type is Ni-INTp.

I believe I have a discovered a subconscious link in my memory which determines the quadra values and supervision cycles, leading to the types. I am certain that IM types are consciously or subconsciously chosen, and are promoted by emotional associations with the method. A little known fact I discovered in kindergarten is that ego response is aligned to socionic quadra order (though I have always known this, I made the connection with socionics only very recently). Alphas choose to respond immediately to phenomena, as though they are looking for it. Betas respond next, no longer in the dogmatic judicious sense but rather in the decisive critical sense; both are still merry as they accept the stimuli in the context of their own thoughts and the feelings they have collectively accepted. These quadras process much quicklier and at a faster refresh rate, thus dealing with more statistical superficialities that are better accommodated with an response which serves both as a reference for stimuli and allows the person to better accomodate the discovery immediately within the context of the emotional atmosphere and their personal beliefs. allows Alphas to sort firsthand for useful ideas and allows Betas, who as autocrats share a sense of agency more than a sense of immediate wonder, to judge each other's awareness of the new discovery. I would like to note here that process types metabolize from a state whereas result types metabolize to a state. Gammas, by the third response, are not only decisive but decidedly serious, as by this time the discovery has sparked enough interest to warrant and , which are used to integrate the discovery into a practical solution in society. Lastly, Deltas, who are still serious after the decisions have been made, integrate the most important aspects into the general and scheme of the present to be slowly maintained within that sphere until inspiring an Alpha response in someone some way...not to be mistaken, though all people have responses in each quadra, Alpha types have ego/superid responses in the immediate reflex, unvalued agency responses (which are conscious within the identical and conflictor supervision cycles of the same temperament), and id/superego responses in the third. Gammas begin with a critical superego/id in the first response and by the third are using their ego/superid to make use of any practically that was found to be significant. It is where one does the most accepting and creating within the relative social sphere as conditioned by people and events that decides which forms of metabolism are ultimately utilized for interaction, but the quadra values themselves are instilled in the person's own ties to the activity without external influence as the subject is always free to observe and respond as is comfortable for them...

I have decided to use a new typing scheme which I feel is more relevant:

Ti-INTj 1ASR / Alpha Anal Static Result
Ne-INTj 1OSR / Alpha Oral Static Result
Ne-ENTp 1ASP / Alpha Anal Static Process
Ti-ENTp 1OSP / Alpha Oral Static Process
Te-ENTj 3ADR / Gamma Anal Dynamic Result
Ni-ENTj 3ODR / Gamma Oral Dynamic Result
Ni-INTp 3ADP / Gamma Anal Dynamic Process
Te-INTp 3ODP / Gamma Oral Dynamic Process
Fe-ESFj 1ADR / Alpha Anal DYnamic Result
Si-ESFj 1ODR / Alpha Oral Dynamic Result
Si-ISFp 1ADP / Alpha Anal Dynamic Process
Fe-ISFp 1ODP / Alpha Oral Dynamic Process
Fi-ISFj 3ASR / Gamma Anal Static Result
Se-ISFj 3OSR / Gamma Oral Static Result
Se-ESFp 3ASP / Gamma Anal Static Process
Fi-ESFp 3OSP / Gamma Oral Static Process
Ti-ISTj 2ASP / Beta Anal Static Process
Se-ISTj 2OSP / Beta Oral Static Process
Se-ESTp 2ASR / Beta Anal Static Result
Ti-ESTp 2OSR / Beta Oral Static Result
Te-ESTj 4ADP / Delta Anal Dynamic Process
Si-ESTj 4ODP / Delta Oral Dynamic Process
Si-ISTp 4ADR / Delta Anal Dynamic Result
Te-ISTp 4ODR / Delta Oral Dynamic Result
Fe-ENFj 2ADP / Beta Anal Dynamic Process
Ni-ENFj 2ODP / Beta Oral Dynamic Process
Ni-INFp 2ADR / Beta Anal Dynamic Result
Fe-INFp 2ODR / Beta Oral Dynamic Result
Fi-INFj 4ASP / Delta Anal Static Process
Ne-INFj 4OSP / Delta Oral Static Process
Ne-ENFp 4ASR / Delta Anal Static Result
Fi-ENFp 4OSR / Delta Oral Static Result

*anal perhaps corresponds more to judging than accepting subtype, but I highly doubt it

For supervision, if you compare the way each dual responds to your functions, you will find that the beneficiary plays the role of the easy parent who can't do much for you but makes you feel better whereas the supervisor plays the harsh parent who helps you grow in the long run:

benefactor - calms you down, straightens you out
your mental is their vital - demonstrate deep sentiments
your accepting is their mobilizing - calms you down
your creative is their ignoring - doesn't take your crap
your role is their demonstrative - shows you your mistakes
your polr is their suggestive - gives advice
your suggestive is their creative - makes you feel better
your mobilizing is their role - keeps you from being hasty
your demonstrating is their accepting - understands your weaknesses
your ignoring is their PoLR - focused on your perspective

supervisor - keeps you in line, gets you focused
your mental is their mental - maintain ready communication
your accepting is their creative - directs you
your creative is their role - keeps you on a tight leash
your role is their PoLR - don't understand your criticisms
your polr is their accepting - are never hindered by you
your suggestive is their mobilizing - act on your behalf
your mobilizing is their ignoring - doesn't take you seriously
your demonstrating is their suggestive - helps you solve your problems
your ignoring is their demonstrating - hides their weakness from you

[crazedrat]

i see no reason to pull oral / anal into the matter, even if some level of correspondence exists. At the very least you haven't justified it in what you've written. If the subtypes end up entirely correspondent to oral / anal, it's still questionable whether cross referencing paradigms makes sense.

The qualitative description of quadra attributes is good. The assignment of a starting point to the order of information flow is arbitrary, though. Alpha isn't a starting point, it's just accumulative of information. The information itself is observed in the world. You can choose to filter the information in whichever direction seems best to you. For a gamma type, having a critical eye means not writing something off too quickly; i.e., being aware of possibilities. (lol @ this part).

Also, a progression of information makes an assumption on the nature of the information; the information is qualitative and measurable. Switching this assumption around (presumably measuring information in waves) could easily have gamma as the accumulation in a cycle, and alpha as the first regression in the cycle.

Last thing is.. I don't see you as INTp-Ni. Correct me if I'm wrong: This cycle business has led you to that belief? That your critical eye necessarily places you in Gamma?

[Jarno]

The only conclusion that I can draw is that you have to start over from scratch, since you seem totally lost. You've been LSI, LIE, SLE, ILI and your explanations of socionics deviate from what socionics is. How hard can it be... In the beginning everone could determine their type with dichotomies but nowadays there are oral and anal things necessary? I don't see any improvement in that, actually it makes things as confusing as possible.

[crazedrat]

There is legitimacy to the cycle he's describing though, minus the assignment of words to the various parts of the cycle; which as I said is arbitrary, because it depends on how you define the parameters of the cycle. It's the same four step cycle you see in stocks. there is a steady phase, followed by a rise, followed by another steady phase, followed by a decline. Stock analysts use that sort of thing and more to make their predictions. It can all be seen as socionics, though. Part of why I'm interested in trading.
Maybe a better word for 'anal' would be 'regressive'; and a better word for 'oral' would be 'expansive'?

[Brilliand]

Quadra progression has been around for a long time, although it goes in and out of favor.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I am certain that IM types are consciously or subconsciously chosen, and are promoted by emotional associations with the method.

Could I ask you to elaborate on this part? (i'm just curious if there's something about the nature/nurture of socionic type to be learned here). Cheers.

First I would like to declare that my type is Ni-INTp.

Your Te always was pretty "extensive" I thought.

[munenori2]

Holy fuck, Huitzi. Maybe you are ILI o_0

These quadras process much quicklier and at a faster refresh rate...

[Erk]

Or maybe he is LSI like he claims in his sig.

[munenori2]

Or maybe he is LSI like he claims in his sig.

Irrelevant!

[717495]

No such thing as Ni. Everyone is Ne.

[FDG]

So merry types suffer of precocious oral ejaculation?

[Nexus]

I would just like to add that I believe anal/accepting types are more likely to receive benefit/supervision, whereas oral/creative subtypes are more likely to produce it. Also, note that introversion is defined as extroversion-creating, introversion-accepting, whereas extroverts are the opposite; from here it was pretty easy to deduce that I am in fact LIE, possibly oral subtype...

i see no reason to pull oral / anal into the matter, even if some level of correspondence exists. At the very least you haven't justified it in what you've written. If the subtypes end up entirely correspondent to oral / anal, it's still questionable whether cross referencing paradigms makes sense.

The qualitative description of quadra attributes is good. The assignment of a starting point to the order of information flow is arbitrary, though. Alpha isn't a starting point, it's just accumulative of information. The information itself is observed in the world. You can choose to filter the information in whichever direction seems best to you. For a gamma type, having a critical eye means not writing something off too quickly; i.e., being aware of possibilities. (lol @ this part).

Also, a progression of information makes an assumption on the nature of the information; the information is qualitative and measurable. Switching this assumption around (presumably measuring information in waves) could easily have gamma as the accumulation in a cycle, and alpha as the first regression in the cycle.

Last thing is.. I don't see you as INTp-Ni. Correct me if I'm wrong: This cycle business has led you to that belief? That your critical eye necessarily places you in Gamma?

It makes perfect sense that anal types focus more on what they accept and oral types on what they produce. Information follows the direction of process result; result types somewhat randomly create finished products in an unfocused manner while totally unaware of what they are doing, whereas process types will focus their unconscious on one phenomena and become completely involved only in metabolizing it away without ever realizing any particular aspect of their own results.

The only conclusion that I can draw is that you have to start over from scratch, since you seem totally lost. You've been LSI, LIE, SLE, ILI and your explanations of socionics deviate from what socionics is. How hard can it be... In the beginning everone could determine their type with dichotomies but nowadays there are oral and anal things necessary? I don't see any improvement in that, actually it makes things as confusing as possible.

There is more to the conscious mind than a random distribution of cognitive preferences...

Could I ask you to elaborate on this part? (i'm just curious if there's something about the nature/nurture of socionic type to be learned here). Cheers.

Your Te always was pretty "extensive" I thought.

I had believed that fundamental emotional ties to IM associated with the dopamine reward-path and the id were responsible for the higer cognitive order, but I am not entirely sure...however, I do know identical twins that have different types; the truth is, usually people who grew up together had similar personalities because they produced and responded to the same type of information, which was conditioned into their minds. In my family, which is predominantly beta, me and my sister are gammas; I have always been something of a free thinker. I believe that many aspects of VI, such as facial expressions and facial development, might be tied to bloodflow and muscle use adapted in the brain to the types of physiological accommodations that support a particular IM in all habits and activities and on a daily basis.

Quadra progression has been around for a long time, although it goes in and out of favor.

I believe that you have overlooked the profundity of this thread; quadra progression is a necessary consequence of the types of cognitive structures that exist in the mind, which mostly exist to accommodate a personal preference with respect to the speed and manner in which new information is integrated. It is the basis for the entrenched ego/superid 'walls' that people put up to accommodate their own id/superego biases that eventually leads to inter-quadra conflicts, as betas and deltas focus on different methods of agency (immediate versus prolonged) and alphas and gammas on different approaches of manifestation (dogmatic versus critical).

Holy fuck, Huitzi. Maybe you are ILI o_0

Sorry, I know quicklier is not a word, but I prefer it to quicker.

[crazedrat]

It makes perfect sense that anal types focus more on what they accept and oral types on what they produce.

You only responded to the first paragraph. And what you said was addressed in that first paragraph. So ignoring that there are two other fronts here, I will make this part more clear to you:
Whether there is correspondence between anal/oral and the subtype distinction is not important. The only value in bringing the words oral/anal in as descriptors is to limit the distinction of subtype to the paradigm of psychoanalytics.
There are two problems with doing this.
1: it is highly probable subtypes can be associated with both psychoanalytics, and much more than psychoanalytics.
2: it is not entirely established that all aspects of oral/anal are associated with the single discriminatory factor of subtype. Oral/anal could very well be subtype, and much more than subtype.

You can make an association without overstepping either of those boundaries. But if you're going to make an association, you must phrase it as one. This means you use the regular notation for subtypes, and then state your associations.
Lastly, even if both the above points were satisfied, and the psychoanalytics vs. subtype distinctions were an identical phenomena in every respect, I would still oppose the mixing of paradigms for purely linguistic reasons. (And if you believe language has any empirical basis at all, you will acknowledge both points I mentioned cannot possibly be satisfied)

[leftylib]

[QUOTE=Huitzilopochtli;558806]I would just like to add that I believe anal/accepting types are more likely to receive benefit/supervision, whereas oral/creative subtypes are more likely to produce it. Also, note that introversion is defined as extroversion-creating, introversion-accepting, whereas extroverts are the opposite; from here it was pretty easy to deduce that I am in fact LIE, possibly oral subtype...


I think youre likely INTJ, too.

[leftylib]

I would just like to add that I believe anal/accepting types are more likely to receive benefit/supervision, whereas oral/creative subtypes are more likely to produce it. Also, note that introversion is defined as extroversion-creating, introversion-accepting, whereas extroverts are the opposite; from here it was pretty easy to deduce that I am in fact LIE, possibly oral subtype...

P.S. Sorry for the choppy replies to one post, but just wanted to say that as an ENFJ I am much more comfortable benefitting than I am being benefitted in response to your oral/creative statements here.

[crazedrat]

for future reference make one post using the edit button

[lefty]

for future reference make one post using the edit button

i supervise you - which means im biting my tongue from ripping you a new asshole right now.
so for future referance - why dont you find something better to do.

Lefty
ENFJ
4w5

[leftylib]

Ti-ISTj 2ASP / Beta Anal Static Process
Se-ISTj 2OSP / Beta Oral Static Process


*anal perhaps corresponds more to judging than accepting subtype, but I highly doubt it

i think this is funny because you identify yourself as possibly an anal type and then you speculate about what anal means but you tack on "but i doubt it" hahahahaha anal much ay? ISTJs don't exactly go with the flow. You gotta be that way if youre going to catch inconsistencies or a crime in progress etc. Gotta resist. Resist and Survive goes one of the beta type sayings.