Hate is a very valid and sometimes necessary emotion. Wrong deeds would go unpunished if it didn't exist. Now you might ask; is it okay to punish other people? who has the right to punish?
Lol this holographic view of reality keeps getting repeated everywhere.
I could get it if that were the case but then you'd have to say something like "happiness conceals some fear" too, unless you meant that for negative emotions only which you should've specified.
It's kind of like saying "there's a little of our dual in us all".
The expression of one IE implies some activity from all the rest of the IEs in your IM too. The expression of one emotion implies the engagement or activity or some roots from all emotions (in this discussion, it's fear being focused on).
It's true in one sense but wrong in another sense because yes there can be very different IEs (or emotions) forming "roots" that help build up the existence of the currently expressed emotion, and can involve some engagement of them, but it's a little wrong/far-fetched/absurd to think that when someone is angry or feeling hate, MOST of what is being felt at that time is fear rather than anger, or to characterize an SLE with IEI traits for e.g..
So if this idea of "fear" always underlying anger etc. were to be true, it would be like saying the underlying mechanism of me being SLE is actually being an IEI. Which is true in a sense but a little bit practically awkward. @Chae
So I'm somehow still a Gamma even though everyone who's caught a glimpse of my thoughts swears I'm an Alpha?
So I share a quadra with worldly, snobbish, self-important, sterile, emotionless narcissists who have no personality whatsoever?
...this is actually the most legitimate reason to kill oneself I've come across on the internet in a long time. Well played, OP. Well played.
@Alioth Many gammas would use the descriptors you did about Alpha as well... ;p
@Alioth I said what I said because it's true, and it was meant to make you think.
I don't know why you're being so aggressive right now. I also don't know why OP makes you want to kill yourself (or why hating your own quadra necessarily puts you in association with your opposite quadra) but I hope you feel better.
I agree overall with what you're saying here. For the bolded though, I want to point out that there can be nuance to things people feel. Feelings don't need to be all or nothing in order to be genuine--although perhaps as an Fe polr, I would wager that maybe you feel they *should* be all or nothing or that you experience them in that way to some extent. I sort of know what you mean though with that particular example because people don't realize sometimes that in doing that they're essentially reinforcing negative behaviours and not being honest to themselves about how they really feel about the "sin" or whatever.
I noticed for myself that when I learned to embrace my negative thoughts and feelings towards things/others for what they were, it made me able to understand and acknowledge my love for certain things and deepened those in return.
For me, most of my hate was born of envy and/or competition, usually over a guy. The only people I have seriously felt uncontrollable hate for were romantic rivals. Even to the point of imagining their boring deaths and how no one would come to their funeral or cry because they were a nonentity. :/ It took me years to admit I was a jealous type person because I didn't even see it in myself. In my mind I saw myself as better than them so how could they have anything to be jealous of. When someone accused me of being jealous of another girl (sometimes guy) I would get defensive and sometimes angry if they didn't let up.
As a child I screamed I hated my family constantly because I knew my mother hated it. I liked how it got under her skin. I told her I hated my stepdad who was just her bf then. I would say terrible things about him to hurt her feelings. That too was out of jealousy. I felt he was going to take my mom away from me because to that point it had been my mom, my sister and me.
I thought I hated my sister too, sometimes, because she was treated like a baby, by my mom, and she always wanted to follow me around. I hated that I had to be responsible for her since I was not her mother. I was resentful more than hateful. I might have believed I hated them at the time but in retrospect I did not. My aunt would say things like, hate me all you want but....*insert whatever punishment* I was defiant in the face of punishment. I would fantasize my revenge... It was in my mid 20s that I started seeing it for what it was. A lot of of it was fear based, like losing control of my mom to my stepdad. Losing my freedom when I had to take care of my sister or when they locked me away so I was no longer their problem. Losing my bf to someone else... Losing in general.
It just seems like a lot of this was due to not knowing myself or my place in my family, the community or the world. I hated the system to that took me away from my family and restricted my freedom. I hated most of the therapists and psychiatrists that labeled me things that I did not think applied.
None of that was true hate, when put in perspective, so I imagine this is all a matter of semantics. I have a high bar for what I consider hate now, taking my temporary child/teen angst into account. I don't really have a reason to hate anyone at this point. Like I said, hating is giving someone power over me. For all I know my strongest dislike is the equivalent of some of you guys most hateful feelings. Someone I trusted told me that hate would make me an ugly person not only inside but out. I took that to heart because I didn't want to be ugly.
*I don't wish a child like me on my worst enemy.
Edit: Oh, I almost forgot. I hated "god" for letting everything bad happen in this world and later for not existing in the first place. "God" was the concept I hated most for many years. I hated the people who told me that god was going to send me to hell for every little thing I did "wrong" when I was a kid. I am over that now though.
Last edited by Aylen; 03-21-2017 at 02:37 PM.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
@Aylen I was hoping sort of for a kind of philosophical answer or opinion on 'what is hate' ... if you have one. That was still interesting though lol.
Me tooEdit: Oh, I almost forgot. I hated "god" for letting everything bad happen in this world and later for not existing in the first place. "God" was the concept I hated most for many years. I hated the people who told me that god was going to send me to hell for every little thing I did "wrong" when I was a kid. I am over that now though.
The answer to "what is hate?" can only be found within and may be different for each person. I do not say this to avoid answering in a more concrete way. I just think that each person has to determine that for themselves. My idea of hate is something that eats away at your humanity and eventually your soul. It makes you forget how beautiful and diverse everything on this planet really is. It makes you forget that you have a power inside you to transcend the pettiness and hatred. You just have to go within and find it.
I am not talking about peace and love, ignore the ugly, bad stuff. That would just be foolish to pretend it doesn't exist. Acceptance does not come easy to me. It takes works. It takes reflection. It takes being honest with myself. It takes admitting when I am wrong and adjusting my attitude. I look at my life and see plenty of reasons I could have kept hating. I do not because I have the power of choice in every moment to react or respond. I don't always choose wisely.
Hating something prevents me from seeing that each being that landed on this rock, by choice, or karma, has a path to follow that is different from mine. The least I can do is show more tolerance and patience for those who end up crossing my path, no matter how brief. I don't tend to cross paths with anyone I can't learn something from or who can't learn something from me. I have posted my homeless people experiences before. I learned a lot from random homeless people. The ones I have met are not hateful people. You would think they have every reason to be by their stories but they're not. I saw my own selfishness through my interactions with them and decided to do something about it. I hate when people say they hate homeless people, for example (of hating behavior). Unless they have been hurt by a homeless person what is the point of hating some random on the street that asks for a dollar. Give it to them or not but why the hate. Seems weird to me but whatever.
Anyway, most people are just doing the best they can with the level of awareness and the tools they have. Of course there are exceptions to the rules. People with strong awareness do not always choose to do what they personally believe is the best thing for themselves or others. I am guilty as well. I have nothing to complain about in my life when I think about how much worse it could have been. I really wonder sometimes how I have escaped some really dangerous situations relatively unharmed and not be a complete hateful wreck of a human being. I am not struggling for survival. I have everything I need and most of what I want. Being hateful at this point in my life would would show a lack of gratitude for what I do have. I love my family and friends and they love me. That is what I care about. I really don't feel I have the right to judge another considering I have done some pretty fucked up things, in this life and in others. I don't care about others enough to hate them. I don't mean that in a bad way. Like hating an actor makes no sense to me. They 0 impact on my life. I am sure this might surprise some people, I don't hate Trump either. I feel he will have 0 impact on my lifestyle but I do see the pain and fear others have regarding him and I empathize. You got me rambling. It seems to be a morning thing for me to do now. I am not even fully awake yet.
I think you bring up a good question though. What is hate for you, specifically?
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
No one seems to know that hate "is" at the most fundamental level... other than that its actions might generate more problems and sufferings at the expense of the hater (a pure survival mechanism). It also causes suffering in the ones who are doing the hating. So it's probably something that is to be avoided, if you could. Evolution didn't care for much if we suffered or not. This is particularly a very... Buddhist way of looking at it.
I don't really know, which is why I asked. A super dislike, aversion, or condensed directed anger might be the best description I can come up with. Resentment. Still, these are all kind of shallow to me... the concept of hate seems more permanent and to the core and I don't know if it's something I've ever felt. My feelings towards all things are multi-faceted. At the end of the day the things I listed are just fleeting emotions I experience. There's no way I can have them there constantly.
Hate= Wanting to bash someone or something over and over again with an oversized club. That's my definition at least.
Last edited by Muddy; 03-22-2017 at 07:27 PM.
Happiness like an emotion conceals some fear too yes, generally everyone wants to keep this state because it feels good and because there is the fear of the possible changing state, and when it's just simply an emotion and not a long lasting feeling, it isn't built to last, if it last, it's our decision, but it is just an illusion and isn't our true self.
What do you have to say about the rest of my post though?
Sure I agree that feeling happiness may carry some undertones of fear or disappointment or other negative associations, but those tend to come as afterthoughts that float in. There are still moments of feeling emotion where they can be quite pure. I would say that an emotion that has this counterweight to it is not the emotion in its fullest state.
I didn't say anything about our 'true self' in the case of emotions, so that's irrelevant.
uhh let's see. I'm not sure about quadras, but here are a few social pet peeves of mine. I dislike it when people...
>carry over negative feelings from past interactions into every new interaction, like let it go or fuck off
>randomly pipe up with dumb non-sequiturs that fuck up the conversation flow, but this is exclusive to serious conversations
>constantly bring the conversation back to themselves, especially when it's about, like, their traumatic childhood (???)
>pull that herd mentality bullshit (herd mentality =/= solidarity)
>attack others for no reason (but I don't mind it if it's short-lasting + there's a good reason for it)
>expect me to stick around and talk to them long after the conversation's run its course i.e. I'm bored, send help
I dunno, I like to think I'm a pretty flexible conversationalist, but I don't take kindly to folks who don't know how to relax and have a good time. I usually bite my tongue or quietly see myself out in situations like that. I think gammas are boring as hell though. so maybe your theory holds water? I don't like how they separate themselves from the main group (AND THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENS) and expect your unfaltering loyalty, even if they're dead fucking wrong, it's like some lifelong blood pact you never signed up for. betas do this, too, but to a lesser extent. S E N D H E L P
Last edited by wasp; 03-23-2017 at 06:06 AM.
"The expression of one IE implies some activity from all the rest of the IEs in your IM too."
For socionics, we are more or less a bit for every type like we all share the same IE. Though the expression of one IE at a time doesn't necessarily implies the activity of all the IE imo.
The expression of one emotion implies the engagement or activity or some roots from all emotions (in this discussion, it's fear being focused on).
"It's true in one sense but wrong in another sense because yes there can be very different IEs (or emotions) forming "roots" that help build up the existence of the currently expressed emotion, and can involve some engagement of them"
You could be right when you say that one emotion implies the engagement of all emotions but i am not sure, maybe there is core emotions ?
"but it's a little wrong/far-fetched/absurd to think that when someone is angry or feeling hate, MOST of what is being felt at that time is fear rather than anger, or to characterize an SLE with IEI traits for e.g.."
I never said when experiencing emotions that fear was necessarily strong, just that she was there.
"So if this idea of "fear" always underlying anger etc. were to be true, it would be like saying the underlying mechanism of me being SLE is actually being an IEI. Which is true in a sense but a little bit practically awkward."
Yes. Practically it's not really useful, the only benefit is to acknowledge that emotions can be manifestation of insecurities and can exist to serve our survival (feeling happy can help connecting, being motivated...).
"There are still moments of feeling emotion where they can be quite pure. I would say that an emotion that has this counterweight to it is not the emotion in its fullest state."
Yes sure emotion can be quite pure. But not sure it can be experienced in its fullest state.
my EIE mother reads a lot of things similar to albert camus I've always had a hard time understanding that sort of writing. I don't have that good memory of exactly what it was but writing that is very long and wordy. I suck at math and physics when I had to write a physics paper, I try to research a lot but end up writing too much and making it confusing.
I feel like beta sts can sometimes expect too much from others it just seems too specific and intense to me. Once I had an SLE teacher making us create woodworking and three weeks in he still said it could be better, but if I kept going I would just end up with a thin piece of wood due to shredding the wood off of it too much. I guess I just don't seek ti and that kind of preciseness? stresses me out even if I dont show it.
'Hate' is a pretty strong word to use in this context but I agree that I don't really prefer having friends who are in the same quadra. Compatibility within the same quadra probably becomes more important for the long-term or at super close psychological distances, eg. romantic relationships, familial relationships, but for friendships, almost all my friends are from different quadras. I especially love SEIs, IEIs, ESIs and ESEs. As for friendships with my quadra mates, IEEs seem too flighty for me, LSEs, too abrasive, SLIs and EIIs, too difficult to find/identify so I haven't had sufficient experience with them.
I have had romantic experiences tho with SLI and LSE, and it was great. I don't know, I think I view friendships and romantic relationships quite differently, and therefore expect/want different things from them accordingly.
My least favorite people - People who spread false rumors about me behind my back, people who smears my reputation. People who get close to me because they wanted to use me. People who ghost me. People who act passive aggressive with me and expects me to be a mind-reader and doesn't let me know if I've said or done anything that offended them, people who are rude to me etc.
Which quadra does the above sound like? The mean people quadra.
the chance for this is very low. if you seemingly experience this situation there is a very high chance that you are mistyped, with the primary considerations being your quasi-identical/extinguishment. specific people can of course always be disliked, but co-quadranists are on average the least explicitly problematic people. the worst opinion i had of a single person who i was in contact with personally who was identified as Deltan was 'boring' or 'unsatisfying', which can be said to be quite close to neutral. duals/activators should not get even these labels very often, with both functions complementing yours.
@loopyclouds
romantic relationships are, in my view, essentially intimately, perhaps uniquely deep friendships. besides some basic & perhaps universally romantic behaviour like touching, kissing etc., other things are more or less secondary to it and are subject to variation. so, in socionics terms, the same principles of intertypes that are for friends, are for romantic relationships. the more surface-level a friendship is, the less it is a friendship, and so intertypes matter relatively less.
''especially'' loving your quasi-identical is not common. if you are EII, those people could be Delta NF's, too, for example.
I never said they were problematic, I just don't prefer them for friendships. Maybe the difference in quadra provides something new, something more novel for friendships.
As for the quasi-identicals, again this is the context of friendships, we bond over same interests, namely writing and reading. I've never had romantic experiences with quasi-identicals, so I don't use the word 'love' in that particular sense.
Imo, it's more likely for people to be friends with people from other quadras than not, we're not all confined to one quadra. How would society function if we only got along with our quadra mates?
@loopyclouds
it was in response to the OP.I never said they were problematic
the novel aspects of people that stimulate friendships i'd relegate to them having your superid function(s) in their ego. id is not particularly interesting. superego may be on the surface, but quickly tire with contact.I just don't prefer them for friendships. Maybe the difference in quadra provides something new, something more novel for friendships.
same interests there theoretically are with your identicals and mirrors, who also share values with you. which is why the 'especial' love for the quasi-identicals over them is unlikely.As for the quasi-identicals, again this is the context of friendships, we bond over same interests, namely writing and reading.
relatively distanced interaction and exchange of information and interests with the same club, opposing quadra should be productive and interesting if it fits the strong functions. the more informal & intimate the relation gets (less distance & more time together), the more irritation and exhaustion will appear from what they value, and from what they cannot and will not focus on & give you.
if these friends you talk about are at a sufficient distance, then their negative sides in your view will be less visible for you, of course. and then intertypes are not so important. and if by friendship you mean relatively distant ''bonding'' over shared interests, then in that situation you may prefer quasi-identicals to duals. but i wouldn't call that friendship. so it's about definitions of that term, too.
seeing that they are 12/16 total types, yes.Imo, it's more likely for people to be friends with people from other quadras than not
anyone can potentially get along with anyone. two of the quadras share half of your values; and have semi-duals & mirages. the situation where your own quadra contains your most hated people is very unlikely, is all.we're not all confined to one quadra. How would society function if we only got along with our quadra mates?
Oh oops, sorry
Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say I spend alot of time with my friends, maybe a few hours a week, otherwise I don't have enough energy for that Being quite introverted, I usually only like spending a lot of time with family/romantic partners.
My IEI sister said that she started to dislike SLEs because their emotions can be 0 or 100.
And I have complained plenty of times people who act like perfectionist planners and can not see moving targets and then end up making perfected things that are fixed in time of initialization (LSI).
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
If you are pessimistic about your weaknesses in weaker functions, you will hate people who are strong in those functions
Souls know their way back home
Probably not, by the way the socionics definitions work. Se is organizing people right? I have no problems being organized, and would actually welcome it, given that it was done in a good way. I've had someone do this to me in a rough, drill sargent style way, which was fine as well, but I'd prefer it be done gently. I'm more likely to hang out with the guy who doesn't critique your every move, but it's fine if you do it for business reasons.
People being judgy is also fine, given it's within reason. I had a guy who was incredibly angry at people who didn't do their work, and he was at the point where he wanted to get into a fight with this guy who was on his phone the entire time we were at work. Completely understandable.
What I can't stand is people who are overly negative and critical for no purpose. There's people I know who just sit around and complain, and then 5 days later, they're still sitting around and complaining. I'll wait along side you and listen to your problems because it's the right thing to do, but I'm not exerting any effort to get you out of your state of emotional turmoil. My example is person A owes person B a ton of money. I'm not saying how much. My suggestion is to lawyer up. 5 years later, they haven't gotten their money. I'm not repeating my suggestion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology
An optimist - does not get discouraged under any circumstances. Life upheavals and stressful events only toughen him and make more confident. He likes to laugh and entertain people. Enters contact with someone by involving him with a humorous remark. His humor is often sly and contain hints and double meanings. Easily enters into arguments and bets, especially if he is challenged. When arguing his points is often ironic, ridicules the views of his opponent. His irritability and hot temper may be unpleasant to others. However, he himself is not perceptive of this and believes that he is simply exchanging opinions.
http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=LIE_Profile_by_Gulenko