The people you hate the most are in your quadra

[chrys]

People barely see the opposite quadra, and the conflicts don't satisfy them, but rather bore them probably. If they even bother with them in the first place. I think the people that conflict most are in your own quadra because you actually take their conflict style seriously because the way they conflict is more obvious to you and you can actually fight back in the same language. Betas complain about people who cause drama, they never talk about the person who minds their own business, but they secretly like the person who causes drama because they talk about them all the time instead of the people who are invisible to them, the ones who lack much emotional involvement and turbulence.


I couldn't imagine what would be worse for a Beta who wants to be and feel right and separate themselves from their opponent... than a Delta who wants to improve relations and keep things objective and helpful for both sides. The Beta might immediately feel "turned off" if you don't match their tone and intensity... I feel like they secretely want you to feel that they are wrong so that they have one less person to care about and one more person on their list of people to not like, it makes things simple and clear, unlike someone who doesn't get along with you yet wants to be closer. Idk I'm not a Beta, but Betas are the most interesting conflict wise and consequently that's what I decided to talk about. xD

[Bertrand]

People barely see the opposite quadra, and the conflicts don't satisfy them, but rather bore them probably. If they even bother with them in the first place. I think the people that conflict most are in your own quadra because you actually take their conflict style seriously because the way they conflict is more obvious to you and you can actually fight back in the same language. Betas complain about people who cause drama, they never talk about the person who minds their own business, but they secretly like the person who causes drama because they talk about them all the time instead of the people who are invisible to them, the ones who lack much emotional involvement and turbulence.


I couldn't imagine what would be worse for a Beta who wants to be and feel right and separate themselves from their opponent... than a Delta who wants to improve relations and keep things objective and helpful for both sides. The Beta might immediately feel "turned off" if you don't match their tone and intensity... I feel like they secretely want you to feel that they are wrong so that they have one less person to care about and one more person on their list of people to not like, it makes things simple and clear, unlike someone who doesn't get along with you yet wants to be closer. Idk I'm not a Beta, but Betas are the most interesting conflict wise and consequently that's what I decided to talk about. xD

totally agree WRT to your assesment of betas. They're the quintessential "hate and love are not opposites, but two sides of the same coin, the true opposite of which is indifference" in other words betas love to hate as much as they love to love, which is why they're so sexual in their interactions and why they have a weird aversion to delta mildness of all things (I, without exaggeration, had a beta try to frame delta not liking provacatory inauthentic hyperbole as some kind of repressive "emotional regulation" of a higher order than what Fe does every time it has a majority)

if you disagree with a beta and engage them in a protracted debate they're liable to think you're stalking them, when from your point of view it may have been a dispassionate discussion over some mainly academic points. the truth is: a part of them would like it more if it were the case that you were taking personal interest in them, despite that it gets outwardly framed as some kind mark against their (in their head only) "adversary's" argument. this is where one starts to realize how pathetic betas can be, and that interacting with them in general is mostly a waste of time (except to engage them in their wheelhouse--social relations), because for them its never really about the truth--its about their personal relationship to you and how consequently that might effect their relationships with others. the "truth", whatever that may be, is just incidental to that, inherently nihilistic and beta, worldview along with whatever present circumstances they currently find themselves in--all their arguments being mainly thinly veiled pleas for attention, which is why they're so hyperbolic all the time--begging someone to (personally speaking, in the case of ILI, which seeks to equalize) "correct" (or, in the case of others, respond in general, i.e.: interact with) them

even this will likely be interpreted by beta as a call for attention because it seems like i'm taking interest in them, when its really an alpha-gamma discussion and I really don't want any beta input; besides, any of their objections will be attacks on the already established phenomena in play and I don't really want to go into a metaphysical debate on reality with betas, since that's always been their one trick pony

[Stellafera]

totally agree WRT to your assesment of betas. They're the quintessential "hate and love are not opposites, but two sides of the same coin, the true opposite of which is indifference" in other words betas love to hate as much as they love to love

As you mentioned, delta mildness actually fires me up sometimes. Come on, get passionate! Get loud! CAN Y'ALL JUST START YELLING OR SOMETHING SO THAT I GET A SENSE OF PERSONALITY? I FEEL SAD AND LONELY. From a Beta perspective it feels suffocating like all of the air of the room has been sucked out. Then you get me getting all awkward except you're fine in the blankness and I look super desperate. Just spool out some line, I'll swim to the bait. Tell me what you're thinking, what you're feeling. The Fi atmosphere does genuinely feel just as controlling as the Fe feels to you.

(I realize that you were looking to criticize the Beta mindset here, but I actually agree with some of your criticism)

I couldn't imagine what would be worse for a Beta who wants to be and feel right and separate themselves from their opponent... than a Delta who wants to improve relations and keep things objective and helpful for both sides. The Beta might immediately feel "turned off" if you don't match their tone and intensity... I feel like they secretely want you to feel that they are wrong so that they have one less person to care about and one more person on their list of people to not like, it makes things simple and clear, unlike someone who doesn't get along with you yet wants to be closer.

I'm actually very conciliatory but I want my opponent to dig in and give me some of the opposing view. I don't want to feel set in my ways and I want you to match my level of argumentation so that we can hash it out. I'll go really in deep arguing my point and seem very involved in it and then afterwards smile, lean back and say "Thanks, that was fun! I like some of the points you made! And after all it didn't really matter much..." (I suspect this comes across as vaguely unsettling to Fi valuers). I back way up if I get a whiff of a sense that the other person is actually offended.

It also depends upon the subject. I'll behave much more opinionated about something abstract like my enjoyment of a book because it's fun to get intense, but with stuff that people are more sensitive about like politics, I'm very careful and spend a lot of time finding points of agreement between me and the other person. "I totally get what you mean about X, I agree, but...". Constant devil's advocate here. I like to fiddle with my creative Fe and play the part of the agreeable insider even if I fundamentally disagree with the other person because it helps them open up. And if they open up, they're likely to be a lot more honest and detailed about how they feel and maybe even a bit more conciliatory themselves, so I can slowly introduce my perspective and we can engage on that and I can learn something about how they think. I like to playfight, not actually hurt feelings.

Basically, conversation is performance for Betas. It's understood that you might play up your reaction to something and it's all in good fun as long as you communicate what you're really thinking too. I think Betas (especially beta NFs) are trying to reach out by digging their heels in the ground. They expect the other person to react to that and provide their own momentum so that you get two big boulders flying out at each other. When people just sort of... see that I'm mounting an argument and concede, it's really awkward. Remember, it's playfighting. The dogmatism, the intensity, etc. It's all play for us. I mean, on some level, it's genuine. It's shadowpuppetry. There's something genuine behind the show (I tend to get frustrated with Alphas when I assume there's a message to the games and there is none, think that's related to the Ne/Ni divide), but the presentation is playful. Augmented reality.

I think it might help your interactions with Betas if you verbally point out that they're being too hardcore for you (I realize you're an Alpha and not Delta but it could probably apply to anyone interacting with Betas). They might not have intended to come off as harsh as they did and, unless they're jerks, will probably explain to you what they were actually trying to say. When you think the Beta is being mean, we might simultaneously worry that we were boring or upset you in some way. Clearing up the cause helps a lot. If I know my Beta approach doesn't work with you, I'll redirect my conversational style to be more earnest and direct. I might have less fun but I'd rather have that than make someone feel hated.

[Bertrand]

stahp you're making me think all betas might not be bad

although I will say that inasmuch is Fi is ok being left alone and Fe has to mess with other people its crossing a line, and its a false equivalence to say the two feel the same to eachother, because one is not doing anything and the other is actively interfering with others. in those cases, I wish beta would just tap into some of that high powered yet oft ignored Fi and chill

[Stellafera]

stahp you're making me think all betas might not be bad

Fe-Se mode enabled

you staph it you're a Fi-valuing type and you aren't acting like a hardass pussy

the only people left to make fun of are alphas and they don't understand insults

Fe-Se mode disabled

Rebooting...

Fi mode enabled

I'm glad something about that spoke to you! I was kind of worried that it'd come across as too positive on the Beta PoV/disrespectful of the Fi criticism angle and I'm happy to see that it didn't.

although I will say that inasmuch is Fi is ok being left alone and Fe has to mess with other people its crossing a line, and its a false equivalence to say the two feel the same to eachother, because one is not doing anything and the other is actively interfering with others. in those cases, I wish beta would just tap into some of that high powered yet oft ignored Fi and chill

Hm, that makes sense. I think from the Fe perspective, all social interaction involves you imposing your "vibe" on someone else, and Fi feels like the "vibe of no vibe". It's a freedom of expression issue for Fe and it's a freedom of not having to express issue for Fi. Fi wants an environment where it doesn't have to be anything it's not and Fe wants an environment where it's allowed to try on different personas and play at being something else.

[Bertrand]

Hm, that makes sense. I think from the Fe perspective, all social interaction involves you imposing your "vibe" on someone else, and Fi feels like the "vibe of no vibe". It's a freedom of expression issue for Fe and it's a freedom of not having to express issue for Fi. Fi wants an environment where it doesn't have to be anything it's not and Fe wants an environment where it's allowed to try on different personas and play at being something else.

do it in front of a mirror please

[Aylen]

I don't really hate people. It is a drain on my energy so I prefer no one has that kind of power over me. I have disliked people who may, or may not be, in my quadra but those come and go. It is more like, I hate behavior but even that is a temporary feeling, if they change it I will not hold it against them. If they don't I will keep my distance.

Hate makes you all shriveled up and ugly, inside and out.

[Slade]

So I suppose my question is, must an Fe type seek out emotional involvement in others, is this more enneagram related, or is this an integral component of Fe? Would they be okay in emotionally neutral atmospheres, and 'let it be' without an impulse to change it? If it isnt, what is this desire to change temperature of the room, and why does Fe feel a need for emotions to be active in the atmosphere? It cant just be a simple case for fun, from what I have gathered the reason should be much deeper than that.

[LuckyOne]

I tend to think of functions as "mental tools," which have conclusions that take up "mental space." We configure our perception of the world to fit what we have seen, using the mental tools we possess.

Yes, that's how i see it as well.

Nah, the people in my quadra are too easy to understand and empathize with for me to hate, or even passionately dislike. The worst feeling I feel is indifference (which is pretty bad for me, I hate not caring one way or the other about someone).

Pretty much, I can't think of any real life SLE, IEI or LSI I've ever hated.

*There is more likely to be a rivalry due to similar interests you are more likely to compete for the same territory.

THIS.

Hate is always a converted form of fear.

Oh this again

Does not compute personally. To me fear and hate are completely separate entities. I think you can fear and like something at the same time.?
I want to hear an explanation.
OK, if valuing people take stance from egocentric perspective then valuers do it from allocentric ways. Hence in valuing way fear something external like acknowledging danger while do not essentially like it when it hurts them.

Yes, yes, yes

Cute I hope this helps: My statement is a perspective. Fear means experiencing threat (instead of well-wishing) from another person, and hate is the defense mode to shield the bad intentions from your perceived vulnerability. Fear, in allocentric terms, is an emotional expression displaying fright, while hate is blatant disdain, snark, avoidance, or anger signaling.

Now it makes total sense why we'll never agree on this issue

Hate is a sentiment that has an outward target, it goes from you to them. Fear is the initial mechanism, from them to you, it's intrusive. So it's only natural that hate is the retaliation reaction, trying to intrude back. The latter includes all of the actions I've listed but it can go beyond that, hate has as many forms as fear because it depends on the hater's motivation and the hatee's.

I definitely see how hate can and in many cases do, come from fear. But it's far from being the only source, hence why the "always" you use on your motto triggered me.

[Chae]

I definitely see how hate can and in many cases do, come from fear. But it's far from being the only source, hence why the "always" you use on your motto triggered me.

Can you elaborate what you mean by having more sources, which ones are there?

[LuckyOne]

Can you elaborate what you mean by having more sources, which ones are there?

Off the top of my head: Disgust due to deeply personal values being violated, betrayal of trust, chronicle disrespect, resentment due to unrequired feelings,callousness due to intense envy, disillusionment after a disappointment etc.

[strrrng]

So I suppose my question is, must an Fe type seek out emotional involvement in others, is this more enneagram related, or is this an integral component of Fe? Would they be okay in emotionally neutral atmospheres, and 'let it be' without an impulse to change it? If it isnt, what is this desire to change temperature of the room, and why does Fe feel a need for emotions to be active in the atmosphere? It cant just be a simple case for fun, from what I have gathered the reason should be much deeper than that.

it's kind of two sides of the same coin. ime Fe-valuers are most comfortable in emotionally neutral atmospheres if the other people are Fe-valuers as well. so, it needs activity, but more in the sense of intentionality than literal, overt expression.

[Stellafera]

Keep in mind that I'm still learning a lot about socionics. It's easy for me to understand Fe as it works in myself, but hard for me to see how it works for Fe leads or with types on the Ne/Si axis.

The essence of what Fe is as I understand it is emotional awareness, and a value for it should entail a desire for emotional involvement.

At first blush, I'd define emotional awareness as more of a Fi thing. Understanding what people's feelings are and being able to articulate that.

An example of this would be saying you are feeling something is wrong, and not bothering to or listening to the logic of it, but feeling strongly that its wrong, so that is enough reason to make it wrong

I dunno, I think I see some of that tendency in myself with Ti in the sloppy hidden agenda position. "So the math works like this (Te)? But that doesn't feel logical to me! It has to make sense to me for it to be right...".

Fi has its 'own' logic to it, but its not logic in the sense of coherency of thought structure, it's more emotional coherency

That does seem to be a thing with Fi, yeah.

That would seemingly slant towards Fe, but this whole performance bit I don't understand and practically speaking, I'm unaware as to how relations would breakdown for me in this sense. I can project an image of someone who is Fe PoLR or devaluing into your example and see how that attitude would clash with them and cause friction but struggle to find examples of that in myself. So I suppose my question is, must an Fe type seek out emotional involvement in others, is this more enneagram related, or is this an integral component of Fe? Would they be okay in emotionally neutral atmospheres, and 'let it be' without an impulse to change it? If it isnt, what is this desire to change temperature of the room, and why does Fe feel a need for emotions to be active in the atmosphere? It cant just be a simple case for fun, from what I have gathered the reason should be much deeper than that.

I can't answer for others, but for me, it's because it helps me communicate my . I have to create a simulacrum of the mindset shaping my Ni in order for other people to get the same impression I did. And I want the same from other people so that they can put their own messaging out that I can interpret as well. Emotionally neutral atmospheres make me feel like I'm not understanding the full picture. I think ILIs use their for a similar purpose. They see where the ship rudder is pointed and they lay out the pertinent facts and relevant logic to the situation to prove it. I suspect one of my sisters is an ILI and she often asks me to provide her the logistical aspects of my stories because it helps her understand the situation better.

Think that's why I use so many similes when I talk. I'm trying to draw comparisons of what I have in my head to something that other people can understand. I want people to understand me and I want to understand other people, and Fe helps me get there. So yeah, let's hang up the mistletoe and string the lights on a pine tree so that the family feels like it's Christmastime, so we can share a holiday together. Let's make everything pink and stuff on Valentine Day so that we all think a little bit about love. Watch the ball drop in Time's Square to ring in the excitement of a new year, play around with costumes on Halloween, feel a little guilty about our environmental impact on Earth Day. Whatever does the trick.

I'm more concerned with Fe in the case of psychological damage - two betas arguing with each other wouldn't bother me, but a beta and a delta would (in the image Im projecting the delta would be damaged by that atmosphere, its more than just 'its not harmonious', but the fact that said person is being damaged in a way that will last past that interaction sicne a delta wouldnt be able to shrug off name calling, etc and intensity of heat exchange like a beta - and the beta would be scarred by the judgements of the delta), though I wonder if that has anything to do with Fe at all.

I'd be bothered by the beta-delta debate too. That kind of interaction would be more common between Beta STs and Delta NFs and it's also a function of emotional maturity. Understanding that different people have different conversational needs, etc.

The ethics you are describing sound more manipulative and flexible which would make sense for creative, so I wonder if Fe leading types would also feel the same way...

Not sure. I think Fe leads are more in the mindset that it's really good for us to all be on the same page rather than that it is useful. I agree that Fe creative I am inclined to describe the function in explicitly manipulative terms, which is probably not how other people see it.

[IEICUCK]

totally agree WRT to your assesment of betas. They're the quintessential "hate and love are not opposites, but two sides of the same coin, the true opposite of which is indifference" in other words betas love to hate as much as they love to love, which is why they're so sexual in their interactions and why they have a weird aversion to delta mildness of all things (I, without exaggeration, had a beta try to frame delta not liking provacatory inauthentic hyperbole as some kind of repressive "emotional regulation" of a higher order than what Fe does every time it has a majority)

if you disagree with a beta and engage them in a protracted debate they're liable to think you're stalking them, when from your point of view it may have been a dispassionate discussion over some mainly academic points. the truth is: a part of them would like it more if it were the case that you were taking personal interest in them, despite that it gets outwardly framed as some kind mark against their (in their head only) "adversary's" argument. this is where one starts to realize how pathetic betas can be, and that interacting with them in general is mostly a waste of time (except to engage them in their wheelhouse--social relations), because for them its never really about the truth--its about their personal relationship to you and how consequently that might effect their relationships with others. the "truth", whatever that may be, is just incidental to that, inherently nihilistic and beta, worldview along with whatever present circumstances they currently find themselves in--all their arguments being mainly thinly veiled pleas for attention, which is why they're so hyperbolic all the time--begging someone to (personally speaking, in the case of ILI, which seeks to equalize) "correct" (or, in the case of others, respond in general, i.e.: interact with) them

even this will likely be interpreted by beta as a call for attention because it seems like i'm taking interest in them, when its really an alpha-gamma discussion and I really don't want any beta input; besides, any of their objections will be attacks on the already established phenomena in play and I don't really want to go into a metaphysical debate on reality with betas, since that's always been their one trick pony

Social relations are part of truth.

Are you a fan of star trek?
Btw you vibe like my grandma.