LIIs - Sometimes they can be hard to be around because they remind me of my own insecurities, though this doesn't lead to hate...
ILEs - Can be assholes, but usually not on purpose.
SFs - Too cute to hate.
LIIs - Sometimes they can be hard to be around because they remind me of my own insecurities, though this doesn't lead to hate...
ILEs - Can be assholes, but usually not on purpose.
SFs - Too cute to hate.
I feel like if you love, unless you're perfect, you're going to hate. I feel like indifference is the absence of love and hate is just corrupted love. I feel like since I love some people I almost necessarily have to hate others, because some people are opposite and stand for different things, but its hate in the sense that I would love no one at all if I didn't hate them, or worse, I'd hate those I love if I loved them. I don't want to hate people though, and maybe I don't hate them, just their actions? but honestly that feels like a disingenuous separation. I hate it when people say stuff like "hate the sin love the sinner" because honestly its usually to defend hating the sinner and loving the sin, in a weird way--so I'm not gonna play that game
I feel like hate isn't really a bad thing. I think its a human thing and that hate is bad only when its flowing from an evil heart. I think righteous hearts hate rightly, and although that means that everyone thinks they're right, thus everyone thinks they have a right to their hate, right or wrong, which means event he 9/11 hijackers probably thought good of themselves. I don't think taking hate off the table changes that, it just pushes it underground... in fact I wouldn't be surprised if they said they didn't hate anyone. I think when you admit to hating you have to take responsibility for it and ask yourself why you hate something and then maybe you can make some progress if you're honest with yourself about it. I also think hate, and how you respond to it are different things. I hate people but I also believe in tolerance for example. People have a right to live, but we also have laws. laws prevent chaos and violence, but you'll never legislate people's hearts--mine included. I feel its okay to hate but if you murder someone you will face the consequences. I don't feel like we can ever eradicate hate, but I think we can organize ourselves in such a way to minimize the damage from the dark side of humanity. I feel like everyone has to take responsibility for their own acts and emotions and at the end of the day if someone wants to hate or break the law, only God can really say whether it was objectively justified... for everyone else we live by our hearts and weigh the consequences and whatever is going to happen is going to happen. I definitely hate though. I don't think its necessarily a bad thing
Last edited by Bertrand; 03-20-2017 at 08:08 PM.
Lmaoo, the inner ESI We need to introduce that concept to Gulenko. If we go by that logic, a Jack London hides within me. That means, I can turn into @Adam Strange. Omg.
(For real, it's more like the enneagram 1 in you, quite impressive lecture)
yes, I think it is E1 because its mostly Si if you really get down to it... its from piecing together the best of philosophies that I've encountered in the most healthy/aesthetic (Si) way I know how (Te/Fi)
like I didn't come up with any of that, I came across it at some point or another and recognized it as true for me
and I do think all IEEs have a little Jack in them its actually been pretty palpable around the IEEs i've gotten to know
Last edited by Bertrand; 03-20-2017 at 10:14 PM.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
For me, most of my hate was born of envy and/or competition, usually over a guy. The only people I have seriously felt uncontrollable hate for were romantic rivals. Even to the point of imagining their boring deaths and how no one would come to their funeral or cry because they were a nonentity. :/ It took me years to admit I was a jealous type person because I didn't even see it in myself. In my mind I saw myself as better than them so how could they have anything to be jealous of. When someone accused me of being jealous of another girl (sometimes guy) I would get defensive and sometimes angry if they didn't let up.
As a child I screamed I hated my family constantly because I knew my mother hated it. I liked how it got under her skin. I told her I hated my stepdad who was just her bf then. I would say terrible things about him to hurt her feelings. That too was out of jealousy. I felt he was going to take my mom away from me because to that point it had been my mom, my sister and me.
I thought I hated my sister too, sometimes, because she was treated like a baby, by my mom, and she always wanted to follow me around. I hated that I had to be responsible for her since I was not her mother. I was resentful more than hateful. I might have believed I hated them at the time but in retrospect I did not. My aunt would say things like, hate me all you want but....*insert whatever punishment* I was defiant in the face of punishment. I would fantasize my revenge... It was in my mid 20s that I started seeing it for what it was. A lot of of it was fear based, like losing control of my mom to my stepdad. Losing my freedom when I had to take care of my sister or when they locked me away so I was no longer their problem. Losing my bf to someone else... Losing in general.
It just seems like a lot of this was due to not knowing myself or my place in my family, the community or the world. I hated the system to that took me away from my family and restricted my freedom. I hated most of the therapists and psychiatrists that labeled me things that I did not think applied.
None of that was true hate, when put in perspective, so I imagine this is all a matter of semantics. I have a high bar for what I consider hate now, taking my temporary child/teen angst into account. I don't really have a reason to hate anyone at this point. Like I said, hating is giving someone power over me. For all I know my strongest dislike is the equivalent of some of you guys most hateful feelings. Someone I trusted told me that hate would make me an ugly person not only inside but out. I took that to heart because I didn't want to be ugly.
*I don't wish a child like me on my worst enemy.
Edit: Oh, I almost forgot. I hated "god" for letting everything bad happen in this world and later for not existing in the first place. "God" was the concept I hated most for many years. I hated the people who told me that god was going to send me to hell for every little thing I did "wrong" when I was a kid. I am over that now though.
Last edited by Aylen; 03-21-2017 at 02:37 PM.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
I agree overall with what you're saying here. For the bolded though, I want to point out that there can be nuance to things people feel. Feelings don't need to be all or nothing in order to be genuine--although perhaps as an Fe polr, I would wager that maybe you feel they *should* be all or nothing or that you experience them in that way to some extent. I sort of know what you mean though with that particular example because people don't realize sometimes that in doing that they're essentially reinforcing negative behaviours and not being honest to themselves about how they really feel about the "sin" or whatever.
I noticed for myself that when I learned to embrace my negative thoughts and feelings towards things/others for what they were, it made me able to understand and acknowledge my love for certain things and deepened those in return.
Hate leads to suffering.
"Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -- Yoda
I think its Yoda quoting the Jedi Code, which was around since the inception of the order. But I also think its a pretty lame Ti way to look at things... Hate can lead to suffering, but not necessarily; it could also lead to good things, imo. Not only that but suffering is not necessarily bad
I guess that makes me a Sith, which I'm comfortable with. Although Obi Wan is without a doubt the best 1w9 ever
Hate is a very valid and sometimes necessary emotion. Wrong deeds would go unpunished if it didn't exist. Now you might ask; is it okay to punish other people? who has the right to punish?
So I'm somehow still a Gamma even though everyone who's caught a glimpse of my thoughts swears I'm an Alpha?
So I share a quadra with worldly, snobbish, self-important, sterile, emotionless narcissists who have no personality whatsoever?
...this is actually the most legitimate reason to kill oneself I've come across on the internet in a long time. Well played, OP. Well played.
@Alioth Many gammas would use the descriptors you did about Alpha as well... ;p
@Alioth I said what I said because it's true, and it was meant to make you think.
I don't know why you're being so aggressive right now. I also don't know why OP makes you want to kill yourself (or why hating your own quadra necessarily puts you in association with your opposite quadra) but I hope you feel better.
@Aylen I was hoping sort of for a kind of philosophical answer or opinion on 'what is hate' ... if you have one. That was still interesting though lol.
Me tooEdit: Oh, I almost forgot. I hated "god" for letting everything bad happen in this world and later for not existing in the first place. "God" was the concept I hated most for many years. I hated the people who told me that god was going to send me to hell for every little thing I did "wrong" when I was a kid. I am over that now though.
The answer to "what is hate?" can only be found within and may be different for each person. I do not say this to avoid answering in a more concrete way. I just think that each person has to determine that for themselves. My idea of hate is something that eats away at your humanity and eventually your soul. It makes you forget how beautiful and diverse everything on this planet really is. It makes you forget that you have a power inside you to transcend the pettiness and hatred. You just have to go within and find it.
I am not talking about peace and love, ignore the ugly, bad stuff. That would just be foolish to pretend it doesn't exist. Acceptance does not come easy to me. It takes works. It takes reflection. It takes being honest with myself. It takes admitting when I am wrong and adjusting my attitude. I look at my life and see plenty of reasons I could have kept hating. I do not because I have the power of choice in every moment to react or respond. I don't always choose wisely.
Hating something prevents me from seeing that each being that landed on this rock, by choice, or karma, has a path to follow that is different from mine. The least I can do is show more tolerance and patience for those who end up crossing my path, no matter how brief. I don't tend to cross paths with anyone I can't learn something from or who can't learn something from me. I have posted my homeless people experiences before. I learned a lot from random homeless people. The ones I have met are not hateful people. You would think they have every reason to be by their stories but they're not. I saw my own selfishness through my interactions with them and decided to do something about it. I hate when people say they hate homeless people, for example (of hating behavior). Unless they have been hurt by a homeless person what is the point of hating some random on the street that asks for a dollar. Give it to them or not but why the hate. Seems weird to me but whatever.
Anyway, most people are just doing the best they can with the level of awareness and the tools they have. Of course there are exceptions to the rules. People with strong awareness do not always choose to do what they personally believe is the best thing for themselves or others. I am guilty as well. I have nothing to complain about in my life when I think about how much worse it could have been. I really wonder sometimes how I have escaped some really dangerous situations relatively unharmed and not be a complete hateful wreck of a human being. I am not struggling for survival. I have everything I need and most of what I want. Being hateful at this point in my life would would show a lack of gratitude for what I do have. I love my family and friends and they love me. That is what I care about. I really don't feel I have the right to judge another considering I have done some pretty fucked up things, in this life and in others. I don't care about others enough to hate them. I don't mean that in a bad way. Like hating an actor makes no sense to me. They 0 impact on my life. I am sure this might surprise some people, I don't hate Trump either. I feel he will have 0 impact on my lifestyle but I do see the pain and fear others have regarding him and I empathize. You got me rambling. It seems to be a morning thing for me to do now. I am not even fully awake yet.
I think you bring up a good question though. What is hate for you, specifically?
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
No one seems to know that hate "is" at the most fundamental level... other than that its actions might generate more problems and sufferings at the expense of the hater (a pure survival mechanism). It also causes suffering in the ones who are doing the hating. So it's probably something that is to be avoided, if you could. Evolution didn't care for much if we suffered or not. This is particularly a very... Buddhist way of looking at it.
I don't really know, which is why I asked. A super dislike, aversion, or condensed directed anger might be the best description I can come up with. Resentment. Still, these are all kind of shallow to me... the concept of hate seems more permanent and to the core and I don't know if it's something I've ever felt. My feelings towards all things are multi-faceted. At the end of the day the things I listed are just fleeting emotions I experience. There's no way I can have them there constantly.
Hate= Wanting to bash someone or something over and over again with an oversized club. That's my definition at least.
Last edited by Muddy; 03-22-2017 at 07:27 PM.
uhh let's see. I'm not sure about quadras, but here are a few social pet peeves of mine. I dislike it when people...
>carry over negative feelings from past interactions into every new interaction, like let it go or fuck off
>randomly pipe up with dumb non-sequiturs that fuck up the conversation flow, but this is exclusive to serious conversations
>constantly bring the conversation back to themselves, especially when it's about, like, their traumatic childhood (???)
>pull that herd mentality bullshit (herd mentality =/= solidarity)
>attack others for no reason (but I don't mind it if it's short-lasting + there's a good reason for it)
>expect me to stick around and talk to them long after the conversation's run its course i.e. I'm bored, send help
I dunno, I like to think I'm a pretty flexible conversationalist, but I don't take kindly to folks who don't know how to relax and have a good time. I usually bite my tongue or quietly see myself out in situations like that. I think gammas are boring as hell though. so maybe your theory holds water? I don't like how they separate themselves from the main group (AND THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENS) and expect your unfaltering loyalty, even if they're dead fucking wrong, it's like some lifelong blood pact you never signed up for. betas do this, too, but to a lesser extent. S E N D H E L P
Last edited by wasp; 03-23-2017 at 06:06 AM.
'Hate' is a pretty strong word to use in this context but I agree that I don't really prefer having friends who are in the same quadra. Compatibility within the same quadra probably becomes more important for the long-term or at super close psychological distances, eg. romantic relationships, familial relationships, but for friendships, almost all my friends are from different quadras. I especially love SEIs, IEIs, ESIs and ESEs. As for friendships with my quadra mates, IEEs seem too flighty for me, LSEs, too abrasive, SLIs and EIIs, too difficult to find/identify so I haven't had sufficient experience with them.
I have had romantic experiences tho with SLI and LSE, and it was great. I don't know, I think I view friendships and romantic relationships quite differently, and therefore expect/want different things from them accordingly.
My least favorite people - People who spread false rumors about me behind my back, people who smears my reputation. People who get close to me because they wanted to use me. People who ghost me. People who act passive aggressive with me and expects me to be a mind-reader and doesn't let me know if I've said or done anything that offended them, people who are rude to me etc.
Which quadra does the above sound like? The mean people quadra.
the chance for this is very low. if you seemingly experience this situation there is a very high chance that you are mistyped, with the primary considerations being your quasi-identical/extinguishment. specific people can of course always be disliked, but co-quadranists are on average the least explicitly problematic people. the worst opinion i had of a single person who i was in contact with personally who was identified as Deltan was 'boring' or 'unsatisfying', which can be said to be quite close to neutral. duals/activators should not get even these labels very often, with both functions complementing yours.
@loopyclouds
romantic relationships are, in my view, essentially intimately, perhaps uniquely deep friendships. besides some basic & perhaps universally romantic behaviour like touching, kissing etc., other things are more or less secondary to it and are subject to variation. so, in socionics terms, the same principles of intertypes that are for friends, are for romantic relationships. the more surface-level a friendship is, the less it is a friendship, and so intertypes matter relatively less.
''especially'' loving your quasi-identical is not common. if you are EII, those people could be Delta NF's, too, for example.
I never said they were problematic, I just don't prefer them for friendships. Maybe the difference in quadra provides something new, something more novel for friendships.
As for the quasi-identicals, again this is the context of friendships, we bond over same interests, namely writing and reading. I've never had romantic experiences with quasi-identicals, so I don't use the word 'love' in that particular sense.
Imo, it's more likely for people to be friends with people from other quadras than not, we're not all confined to one quadra. How would society function if we only got along with our quadra mates?
@loopyclouds
it was in response to the OP.I never said they were problematic
the novel aspects of people that stimulate friendships i'd relegate to them having your superid function(s) in their ego. id is not particularly interesting. superego may be on the surface, but quickly tire with contact.I just don't prefer them for friendships. Maybe the difference in quadra provides something new, something more novel for friendships.
same interests there theoretically are with your identicals and mirrors, who also share values with you. which is why the 'especial' love for the quasi-identicals over them is unlikely.As for the quasi-identicals, again this is the context of friendships, we bond over same interests, namely writing and reading.
relatively distanced interaction and exchange of information and interests with the same club, opposing quadra should be productive and interesting if it fits the strong functions. the more informal & intimate the relation gets (less distance & more time together), the more irritation and exhaustion will appear from what they value, and from what they cannot and will not focus on & give you.
if these friends you talk about are at a sufficient distance, then their negative sides in your view will be less visible for you, of course. and then intertypes are not so important. and if by friendship you mean relatively distant ''bonding'' over shared interests, then in that situation you may prefer quasi-identicals to duals. but i wouldn't call that friendship. so it's about definitions of that term, too.
seeing that they are 12/16 total types, yes.Imo, it's more likely for people to be friends with people from other quadras than not
anyone can potentially get along with anyone. two of the quadras share half of your values; and have semi-duals & mirages. the situation where your own quadra contains your most hated people is very unlikely, is all.we're not all confined to one quadra. How would society function if we only got along with our quadra mates?
Oh oops, sorry
Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say I spend alot of time with my friends, maybe a few hours a week, otherwise I don't have enough energy for that Being quite introverted, I usually only like spending a lot of time with family/romantic partners.
My IEI sister said that she started to dislike SLEs because their emotions can be 0 or 100.
And I have complained plenty of times people who act like perfectionist planners and can not see moving targets and then end up making perfected things that are fixed in time of initialization (LSI).
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