Originally Posted by Chae
CuteI hope this helps: My statement is a
perspective. Fear means experiencing threat (instead of well-wishing) from another person, and hate is the defense mode to shield the bad intentions from your perceived vulnerability. Fear, in allocentric
terms, is an emotional expression displaying fright, while hate is blatant disdain, snark, avoidance, or anger signaling.
Can you go more into hate? I think you're onto something but I'm not totally clear on it
Hate is a sentiment that has an outward target, it goes from you to them. Fear is the initial mechanism, from them to you, it's intrusive. So it's only natural that hate is the retaliation reaction, trying to intrude back. The latter includes all of the actions I've listed but it can go beyond that, hate has as many forms as fear because it depends on the hater's motivation and the hatee's.
As it is usually said love and hate is not something I comprehend fully. Just some sort of preference over the other. It can be bit pathetic in a way.
There are twisted people in each quadra and in each type.
Generally? I can see my own failures in/
egos. No hate.
On the other hand some people get stuck in their ways with their insecurities. I possibly try to mold or open up some/
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LIE, because they are fuled by ignorant judgement and consider it empowerment. Generally they are douchbags as well. Coincidentally it's the type I despise the most out of all types. Just the other week one of these was talking shit behind the back of a really good guy who stutters when he speaks. I wanted to break his fucking face.
that's weird, I've never personally encountered a LIE who was a dick--they've always been really well meaning, humble, albeit straightforward (from the point of view of ILI), people... its always been SLE doing their best LIE impression that usually go over the top with it
(not saying it can't happen, just that this has always been my experience, its hard for me to picture LIE being a true dick, a part of effective Te is knowing not to do that stuff, etc)
in fact, I personally feel like I'm more of a dick than any LIE I've ever known. They seem more sensitive in general to the people around them than me
LIE in socionics are ENTJ in mbti right?
rite, MBTI ENTJ = socionics LIE (inasmuch as crossovers are valid--they're all a little different)
In that case my hatered was directed correctly. But perhaps I've overgeneralized.
People barely see the opposite quadra, and the conflicts don't satisfy them, but rather bore them probably. If they even bother with them in the first place. I think the people that conflict most are in your own quadra because you actually take their conflict style seriously because the way they conflict is more obvious to you and you can actually fight back in the same language. Betas complain about people who cause drama, they never talk about the person who minds their own business, but they secretly like the person who causes drama because they talk about them all the time instead of the people who are invisible to them, the ones who lack much emotional involvement and turbulence.
I couldn't imagine what would be worse for a Beta who wants to be and feel right and separate themselves from their opponent... than a Delta who wants to improve relations and keep things objective and helpful for both sides. The Beta might immediately feel "turned off" if you don't match their tone and intensity... I feel like they secretely want you to feel that they are wrong so that they have one less person to care about and one more person on their list of people to not like, it makes things simple and clear, unlike someone who doesn't get along with you yet wants to be closer. Idk I'm not a Beta, but Betas are the most interesting conflict wise and consequently that's what I decided to talk about. xD
Last edited by chrys; 02-25-2017 at 12:16 AM.
totally agree WRT to your assesment of betas. They're the quintessential "hate and love are not opposites, but two sides of the same coin, the true opposite of which is indifference" in other words betas love to hate as much as they love to love, which is why they're so sexual in their interactions and why they have a weird aversion to delta mildness of all things (I, without exaggeration, had a beta try to frame delta not liking provacatory inauthentic hyperbole as some kind of repressive "emotional regulation" of a higher order than what Fe does every time it has a majority)
if you disagree with a beta and engage them in a protracted debate they're liable to think you're stalking them, when from your point of view it may have been a dispassionate discussion over some mainly academic points. the truth is: a part of them would like it more if it were the case that you were taking personal interest in them, despite that it gets outwardly framed as some kind mark against their (in their head only) "adversary's" argument. this is where one starts to realize how pathetic betas can be, and that interacting with them in general is mostly a waste of time (except to engage them in their wheelhouse--social relations), because for them its never really about the truth--its about their personal relationship to you and how consequently that might effect their relationships with others. the "truth", whatever that may be, is just incidental to that, inherently nihilistic and beta, worldview along with whatever present circumstances they currently find themselves in--all their arguments being mainly thinly veiled pleas for attention, which is why they're so hyperbolic all the time--begging someone to (personally speaking, in the case of ILI, which seeks to equalize) "correct" (or, in the case of others, respond in general, i.e.: interact with) them
even this will likely be interpreted by beta as a call for attention because it seems like i'm taking interest in them, when its really an alpha-gamma discussion and I really don't want any beta input; besides, any of their objections will be attacks on the already established phenomena in play and I don't really want to go into a metaphysical debate on reality with betas, since that's always been their one trick pony
Last edited by Bertrand; 02-25-2017 at 01:14 AM.
As you mentioned, delta mildness actually fires me up sometimes. Come on, get passionate! Get loud! CAN Y'ALL JUST START YELLING OR SOMETHING SO THAT I GET A SENSE OF PERSONALITY? I FEEL SAD AND LONELY. From a Beta perspective it feels suffocating like all of the air of the room has been sucked out. Then you get me getting all awkward except you're fine in the blankness and I look super desperate. Just spool out some line, I'll swim to the bait. Tell me what you're thinking, what you're feeling. The Fi atmosphere does genuinely feel just as controlling as the Fe feels to you.
(I realize that you were looking to criticize the Beta mindset here, but I actually agree with some of your criticism)
I'm actually very conciliatory but I want my opponent to dig in and give me some of the opposing view. I don't want to feel set in my ways and I want you to match my level of argumentation so that we can hash it out. I'll go really in deep arguing my point and seem very involved in it and then afterwards smile, lean back and say "Thanks, that was fun! I like some of the points you made! And after all it didn't really matter much..." (I suspect this comes across as vaguely unsettling to Fi valuers). I back way up if I get a whiff of a sense that the other person is actually offended.
It also depends upon the subject. I'll behave much more opinionated about something abstract like my enjoyment of a book because it's fun to get intense, but with stuff that people are more sensitive about like politics, I'm very careful and spend a lot of time finding points of agreement between me and the other person. "I totally get what you mean about X, I agree, but...". Constant devil's advocate here. I like to fiddle with my creative Fe and play the part of the agreeable insider even if I fundamentally disagree with the other person because it helps them open up. And if they open up, they're likely to be a lot more honest and detailed about how they feel and maybe even a bit more conciliatory themselves, so I can slowly introduce my perspective and we can engage on that and I can learn something about how they think. I like to playfight, not actually hurt feelings.
Basically, conversation is performance for Betas. It's understood that you might play up your reaction to something and it's all in good fun as long as you communicate what you're really thinking too. I think Betas (especially beta NFs) are trying to reach out by digging their heels in the ground. They expect the other person to react to that and provide their own momentum so that you get two big boulders flying out at each other. When people just sort of... see that I'm mounting an argument and concede, it's really awkward. Remember, it's playfighting. The dogmatism, the intensity, etc. It's all play for us. I mean, on some level, it's genuine. It's shadowpuppetry. There's something genuine behind the show (I tend to get frustrated with Alphas when I assume there's a message to the games and there is none, think that's related to the Ne/Ni divide), but the presentation is playful. Augmented reality.
I think it might help your interactions with Betas if you verbally point out that they're being too hardcore for you (I realize you're an Alpha and not Delta but it could probably apply to anyone interacting with Betas). They might not have intended to come off as harsh as they did and, unless they're jerks, will probably explain to you what they were actually trying to say. When you think the Beta is being mean, we might simultaneously worry that we were boring or upset you in some way. Clearing up the cause helps a lot. If I know my Beta approach doesn't work with you, I'll redirect my conversational style to be more earnest and direct. I might have less fun but I'd rather have that than make someone feel hated.
Last edited by Stellafera; 02-25-2017 at 02:57 AM.
stahp you're making me think all betas might not be bad
although I will say that inasmuch is Fi is ok being left alone and Fe has to mess with other people its crossing a line, and its a false equivalence to say the two feel the same to eachother, because one is not doing anything and the other is actively interfering with others. in those cases, I wish beta would just tap into some of that high powered yet oft ignored Fi and chill
Fe-Se mode enabled
you staph it you're a Fi-valuing type and you aren't acting like a hardass pussy
the only people left to make fun of are alphas and they don't understand insults
Fe-Se mode disabled
Rebooting...
Fi mode enabled
I'm glad something about that spoke to you! I was kind of worried that it'd come across as too positive on the Beta PoV/disrespectful of the Fi criticism angle and I'm happy to see that it didn't.
Hm, that makes sense. I think from the Fe perspective, all social interaction involves you imposing your "vibe" on someone else, and Fi feels like the "vibe of no vibe". It's a freedom of expression issue for Fe and it's a freedom of not having to express issue for Fi. Fi wants an environment where it doesn't have to be anything it's not and Fe wants an environment where it's allowed to try on different personas and play at being something else.although I will say that inasmuch is Fi is ok being left alone and Fe has to mess with other people its crossing a line, and its a false equivalence to say the two feel the same to eachother, because one is not doing anything and the other is actively interfering with others. in those cases, I wish beta would just tap into some of that high powered yet oft ignored Fi and chill
So I suppose my question is, must an Fe type seek out emotional involvement in others, is this more enneagram related, or is this an integral component of Fe? Would they be okay in emotionally neutral atmospheres, and 'let it be' without an impulse to change it? If it isnt, what is this desire to change temperature of the room, and why does Fe feel a need for emotions to be active in the atmosphere? It cant just be a simple case for fun, from what I have gathered the reason should be much deeper than that.
Last edited by Slade; 03-06-2017 at 03:23 AM.
Hey, feel free to PM me with any opinions about my type
Yes, that's how i see it as well.
Pretty much, I can't think of any real life SLE, IEI or LSI I've ever hated.
THIS.
Oh this again
Yes, yes, yes
Now it makes total sense why we'll never agree on this issueCute I hope this helps: My statement is a
I definitely see how hate can and in many cases do, come from fear. But it's far from being the only source, hence why the "always" you use on your motto triggered me.
it's kind of two sides of the same coin. ime Fe-valuers are most comfortable in emotionally neutral atmospheres if the other people are Fe-valuers as well. so, it needs activity, but more in the sense of intentionality than literal, overt expression.
4w3-5w6-8w7
Keep in mind that I'm still learning a lot about socionics. It's easy for me to understand Fe as it works in myself, but hard for me to see how it works for Fe leads or with types on the Ne/Si axis.
At first blush, I'd define emotional awareness as more of a Fi thing. Understanding what people's feelings are and being able to articulate that.
I dunno, I think I see some of that tendency in myself with Ti in the sloppy hidden agenda position. "So the math works like this (Te)? But that doesn't feel logical to me! It has to make sense to me for it to be right...".An example of this would be saying you are feeling something is wrong, and not bothering to or listening to the logic of it, but feeling strongly that its wrong, so that is enough reason to make it wrong
That does seem to be a thing with Fi, yeah.Fi has its 'own' logic to it, but its not logic in the sense of coherency of thought structure, it's more emotional coherency
I can't answer for others, but for me, it's because it helps me communicate myThat would seemingly slant towards Fe, but this whole performance bit I don't understand and practically speaking, I'm unaware as to how relations would breakdown for me in this sense. I can project an image of someone who is Fe PoLR or devaluing into your example and see how that attitude would clash with them and cause friction but struggle to find examples of that in myself. So I suppose my question is, must an Fe type seek out emotional involvement in others, is this more enneagram related, or is this an integral component of Fe? Would they be okay in emotionally neutral atmospheres, and 'let it be' without an impulse to change it? If it isnt, what is this desire to change temperature of the room, and why does Fe feel a need for emotions to be active in the atmosphere? It cant just be a simple case for fun, from what I have gathered the reason should be much deeper than that.. I have to create a simulacrum of the mindset shaping my Ni in order for other people to get the same impression I did. And I want the same from other people so that they can put their own messaging out that I can interpret as well. Emotionally neutral atmospheres make me feel like I'm not understanding the full picture. I think ILIs use their
for a similar purpose. They see where the ship rudder is pointed and they lay out the pertinent facts and relevant logic to the situation to prove it. I suspect one of my sisters is an ILI and she often asks me to provide her the logistical aspects of my stories because it helps her understand the situation better.
Think that's why I use so many similes when I talk. I'm trying to draw comparisons of what I have in my head to something that other people can understand. I want people to understand me and I want to understand other people, and Fe helps me get there. So yeah, let's hang up the mistletoe and string the lights on a pine tree so that the family feels like it's Christmastime, so we can share a holiday together. Let's make everything pink and stuff on Valentine Day so that we all think a little bit about love. Watch the ball drop in Time's Square to ring in the excitement of a new year, play around with costumes on Halloween, feel a little guilty about our environmental impact on Earth Day. Whatever does the trick.
I'd be bothered by the beta-delta debate too. That kind of interaction would be more common between Beta STs and Delta NFs and it's also a function of emotional maturity. Understanding that different people have different conversational needs, etc.I'm more concerned with Fe in the case of psychological damage - two betas arguing with each other wouldn't bother me, but a beta and a delta would (in the image Im projecting the delta would be damaged by that atmosphere, its more than just 'its not harmonious', but the fact that said person is being damaged in a way that will last past that interaction sicne a delta wouldnt be able to shrug off name calling, etc and intensity of heat exchange like a beta - and the beta would be scarred by the judgements of the delta), though I wonder if that has anything to do with Fe at all.
Not sure. I think Fe leads are more in the mindset that it's really good for us to all be on the same page rather than that it is useful. I agree that Fe creative I am inclined to describe the function in explicitly manipulative terms, which is probably not how other people see it.The ethics you are describing sound more manipulative and flexible which would make sense for creative, so I wonder if Fe leading types would also feel the same way...
Social relations are part of truth.
Are you a fan of star trek?
Btw you vibe like my grandma.
Bertrand... get over yourself. You've been trying to get a rise out of me ever since, and I've mostly just ignored it and held it in, even though you were clearly being an asshole about it. That's why we had that big conflict, because I was so pissed about it. We can just call it a truce, and never bother each other again. The choice is yours.
The people you hate the most... are probably not in your quadra.
Simply because there is some kind of inherent understanding and common ground with people of your own quadra.
Even though you may sort of dislike them for non-socionics reasons, you can still get where they are coming from.
Having said that, the people you hate the most could be of any type.
And I've found that Fi leads in particular are the most likely type to hate someone from their own Quadra for personal Fi-related reasons.
lmfao
@Bertrand do you really think you're duals with Chae after this interaction? Your verbosity and high level of abstraction is super unlike SLI... you can change back to ILI imo.
by contrast look at how mclane condensed his conclusions to short info points here in a way that nobody else in this thread did, and how much Chae liked it: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1176461
IEE Te HA isn't interested in thinking about an Ni whirlwhind of info. it just wants to grab the key points and go.
bring on the SEEs
lmao, i know everyone finds SEEs hot but if you're wishing that out loud, that might be another indicator to double-check
I like them both honestly, but it feels like IEE likes me more than SEE, but it might just be the particular people involvedlmao, i know everyone finds SEEs hot but if you're wishing that out loud, that might be another indicator to double-check
yeah I agree, fuck em
Even though I'm flattered by this statement, this does not exclude Bertrand from being SLI. We could simply be different subtypes; Si subtype SLI has the +Ni pathway strengthened (+Ni is in their DS). By contrast, Te subtype SLI has -Ni strengthened (role function), while also engaging in -Te demonstrative. This makes Te subtype SLI more synthetic in their thinking than Si subtype.
you still think so even with the degree that he reaches with his thinking style? i guess i'm not excluded from being EII either from your POV?
probability >>> possibility.
I also was conditioned by betas to not be "allowed" my thoughts unless they were thoroughly laid out in a Ti system and went so far as to study philosophy to try and understand the world in such a way, I think subconsciously, so I could explain it to people who could not accept me until I could (highly religious unhealthy IEI (maybe EIE) mother); either way Te had no place so I've made a habit of not explaining myself in that way, even though internally I think in precisely that way
it just comes out a lot, and its no wonder I've had trouble with duals whereas SEIs and stuff absolutely love me (but I don't really find them special, mean as that is)
I feel like my parents were subconsciously seeking and treating me as if I should be a xLE, and sometimes I put off that vibe because I adapted to that conditioning in some ways
Last edited by Bertrand; 03-19-2017 at 09:25 PM.
i thought you said your dad was an SEI though? still, that sounds pretty crappy. they were seeking double the amount of Ti in that case. beta STs are a lot more concise, so if that balancing influence was around that wouldn't have turned into a problem like that most likely where they shifted their neediness to you.
yes, nail on head. I had a lot of resentment towards my dad in precisely that way; before I even knew of socionics I always felt he should have been "more of a man." If he was ESTP I doubt we'd be here. in the end, maybe he did me a favor though. hes not a bad guy, my mom just completely dominated him and he never really stood up to her, even for his own kids
I had an uncle I looked up to as more of a father figure and I think he was EII, which isn't exactly manly but he had certain qualities I absolutely needed
my EIE mother reads a lot of things similar to albert camus I've always had a hard time understanding that sort of writing. I don't have that good memory of exactly what it was but writing that is very long and wordy. I suck at math and physics when I had to write a physics paper, I try to research a lot but end up writing too much and making it confusing.
I feel like beta sts can sometimes expect too much from others it just seems too specific and intense to me. Once I had an SLE teacher making us create woodworking and three weeks in he still said it could be better, but if I kept going I would just end up with a thin piece of wood due to shredding the wood off of it too much. I guess I just don't seek ti and that kind of preciseness? stresses me out even if I dont show it.
This does seem to be true for Betas, since they identify the most with their values and fight against others who oppose them. Gilly's post demonstrates this very well. (I would also say that intraquadra conflict most often occurs between an introvert and an extrovert, for all quadras.)
I don't think it is true for the other quadras though. Gammas (at least Gamma NTs) seem to hate Betas the most as well. With Si valuers it's more haphazard but the people who tend to create the most vehement reactions in general are usually types with high Se.
You seem to be confusing dislike with fear. You can dislike something or someone without being afraid of it, for example if it is irritating.
Partly. Irritation is likely a very subtle threat already because it introduces an element of insecurity --> again, being afraid of things falling apart. It's a level below. But I see we can agree to disagree on this
This speaks volumes about your worldview.
yep.But I see we can agree to disagree on this
Likewise
All emotions (and so irritation) are manifestation of some fear concealed behind imo.
Lol this holographic view of reality keeps getting repeated everywhere.
I could get it if that were the case but then you'd have to say something like "happiness conceals some fear" too, unless you meant that for negative emotions only which you should've specified.
It's kind of like saying "there's a little of our dual in us all".
The expression of one IE implies some activity from all the rest of the IEs in your IM too. The expression of one emotion implies the engagement or activity or some roots from all emotions (in this discussion, it's fear being focused on).
It's true in one sense but wrong in another sense because yes there can be very different IEs (or emotions) forming "roots" that help build up the existence of the currently expressed emotion, and can involve some engagement of them, but it's a little wrong/far-fetched/absurd to think that when someone is angry or feeling hate, MOST of what is being felt at that time is fear rather than anger, or to characterize an SLE with IEI traits for e.g..
So if this idea of "fear" always underlying anger etc. were to be true, it would be like saying the underlying mechanism of me being SLE is actually being an IEI. Which is true in a sense but a little bit practically awkward. @Chae
People hate each other mostly for political reasons. Put two groups of people together with differing political beliefs, and you'd be sure that there'd be fervent conflicts.
People may hate their identicals due to projecting the qualities that they don't like in themselves, as well as that they may notice the negative qualities that they don't like in themselves more in their identicals.
Anyway, this whole idea seems to go against the idea of Socionics inter-type relationships, BECAUSE they are supposed to be relative. Everyone is supposed to have more or less the same reactions with certain type relations.
As self-proclaimed misanthrope I'd say all but as solipsist most of all myself.
OK, not really although I think I have bit of latter in some way.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
I can't believe I missed the follow up to my post (weirdly enough I didn't get the "Quote" message) but you win
It's indeed a case of I'm-the-center-of-the-universe-and-anyone-who-dislikes-me-is-actually-afraid-of-me-because-I'm-so-badass-and-awesome mentality. They try to make it seem about things outside of the being itself by using "professional" language, but it's just a cover.
Yes, I can see it too.
Last edited by LuckyOne; 03-20-2017 at 09:42 AM.
I only hate people who give me a bad attitude and show me a general lack of respect, whatever those types might be. Often I will resist doing something for someone purely out of spite if I feel that aren't taking my interest into consideration and are just trying to strong-arm me into doing something for their own agenda. If instead the person is agreeable and treats me as his/her kin rather then some tool I can be quite generous in what I'm willing to do for them, regardless of their background or political beliefs.
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