People are selfish

[Creepy-krae]

Yeah, really, are they?

I was thinking today how nobody ever turned down requests for favors, everyone I know I can count on, some for some things, others for different things. They can count on me too.

Selfish? Yeah pursuing our own interests out there. Strangers can expect limited help, although usually they receive a lot more than expected.

Within a group of friends, in a local community and to strangers people can be pretty and actually _are_ altruistic.

People send stuff to BionicGoat,

I bet if you have some presence around you'd receive things too if you ask.

Selfish? I don't see it.

[Tom]

Everything everyone does is entirely selfish. Even if you do something entirely to help someone else out, you're gaining more than if you hadn't, because to you it's worth more in that instance to "help someone else". What you want in that case is for someone else to gain. You gain from their gaining in that instance because the thing which you profit from is their profiting. Profit isn't just about "money+things"; profit is about subjective gain in value.

[HKitty]

Everything everyone does is entirely selfish. Even if you do something entirely to help someone else out, you're gaining more than if you hadn't, because to you it's worth more in that instance to "help someone else". What you want in that case is for someone else to gain. You gain from their gaining in that instance because the thing which you profit from is their profiting. Profit isn't just about "money+things"; profit is about subjective gain in value.

I think you're talking about the term "self-interest", not selfishness.
I think Krae meant selfishness as in the generally accepted definition: not caring about anyone EXCEPT yourself, and your own self-gratification. Like when it's not even to your own self-interest to help out another person..

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Gilly, you're a self-admitted narcissist. Don't you think your opinion on this subject is a bit biased. =D

I think we're just a complex, interesting mix of both altruistic and selfish qualities, definitely- and neither side is really bad or good.

As for us making love being about selfishly replicating our genes. Hmm, not really. Otherwise you would only want to have sex when the woman could breed. Why be horny for any other reason? And humans, even if they are 110% heterosexual-- just aren't wired that way. And the very fact that we have a conscious awareness of all this crap tells me that we're meant to take a higher path, somehow- from our natural base instincts anyway, even when we should always give respect to it. (Deep down everybody likes to be throat fucked in the maw and I kinda like it that way) But because we have an awareness of ourselves and can look at these supposed "dark" or "natural" qualities, that means to me we're obviously meant for something more.

ie, insert a self-aggrandizing speech about the limitlessness of human potential and all that gay Star Trek crap here.

[Gilly]

Gilly, you're a self-admitted narcissist. Don't you think your opinion on this subject is a bit biased. =D

I'm always biased

As for us making love being about selfishly replicating our genes. Hmm, not really. Otherwise you would only want to have sex when the woman could breed. Why be horny for any other reason? And humans, even if they are 110% heterosexual-- just aren't wired that way. And the very fact that we have a conscious awareness of all this crap tells me that we're meant to take a higher path, somehow- from our natural base instincts anyway, even when we should always give respect to it. (Deep down everybody likes to be throat fucked in the maw and I kinda like it that way) But because we have an awareness of ourselves and can look at these supposed "dark" or "natural" qualities, that means to me we're obviously meant for something more.

lmfao

You're missing the point though. The point is that we all have biological mechanisms that dictate: "I should have sex;" we feel better if we have sex than if we don't, so in an instinctual sense, sex is selfish, whether it's for procreation or not.

ftr I don't think procreation is typically selfish in a "narcissistic" self-image sense; more that we just want to have sex.

[strrrng]

It's selfish when you can't conceive of that which is outside of your own boundaries, and thus possess zero potential to extend past yourself, for another. Actions demonstrate this by the relative emphasis they put on self and other, within the given parameters of a situation.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Selfishness does limit you in that way. Even Esther Hicks limits herself to talk to mealy-mouthed middle-class losers about feeling better about themselves. I mean you'd think her 'Vibrational Alignment' or whatever would have something more in store for her, but I suppose it makes one feel special to be that bossy. The more you extend in return the more you help yourself, so I definitely see what you mean there Nick. It's not really about being selfish or not, it's just the more selfless you are- the more you tend to experience and grow and the more you do that- the more of a quality leader you are.

I think people have a tendency to view selflessness as this thingie where like you are 'too nice' and let people walk all over you or some shit but it's really not like that. It's more like the more you give yourself up the more you can relate to others and see others went through the same shit as you do, so the more you want to be a helper and since everybody needs to be helped in different ways- as that is what society is based upon, ummmm.....it's just this really good ripple effect that I don't see how anybody can really fight against it.

Even if you're introverted, we're social beings- we're meant to help and communicate and get along. Not disney-ish it's just how we're born and wired.

[Gilly]

I think you're talking about the term "self-interest", not selfishness.

This.

[Ave]

Everything everyone does is entirely selfish. Even if you do something entirely to help someone else out, you're gaining more than if you hadn't, because to you it's worth more in that instance to "help someone else". What you want in that case is for someone else to gain. You gain from their gaining in that instance because the thing which you profit from is their profiting. Profit isn't just about "money+things"; profit is about subjective gain in value.

I tend to agree, and I think that is well put.

[Enters Laughing]

I suppose you could say that those who carry out seemingly "selfless" acts may be doing so because it will mean that people will think well of them, or because it gives them a boost to their psyche.

But...it is conceivable for someone to do something selfless without considering how people will see them or what effect it will have on their psyche - i.e. something basically done on impulse. Of course, being impulsive would not be rationally selfless, and it could have disastrous effects! But then so can carefully considered plans with selfish motives! Such an action would be selfless though.

[717495]

I don't agree.


Not true. At times people help people out despite the fact that they will NOT feel it's worth it.


I can think of other reasons.


I see what you say, but this is not true for all people, only because it's true for some.

No, Tom. Are you even listening? Slow down, listen. I didn't want to do it. I didn't not want to do it either, but I didn't WANT to do it. Not everything we do is because we want to. Sometimes people are just that selfless. Are you telling me that everything you did is because you wanted to? Whatever, although we wish we were that free- in society with all these rules and regulations that is not possible.

Either way, nothing as big as 'selfishness' and 'alturism' can exist in a vacuum, and if you try- you'd only create a neurosis in yourself and ultimately go nowhere. Your lack of Ti-valuing is showing, even if I do realize you're not trying to be an ass.

Of course I got something. I get something every day. You get something no matter what you do, even if you try to do nothing and just exist. Dirt still grows under your fingernails.

Yeah I agree with Mimosa and Bullets on this one, even though it's not the initial question.

[Gilly]

It isn't intentionally selfish, because most don't expect to feel good after helping someone, they end up being surprised.

It's called pack mentality. That's WHY you "feel good" after helping someone. It IS selfish, because we believe on a very basic, instinctual level that we are helping ourselves by helping others.

[strrrng]

Everything everyone does is entirely selfish. Even if you do something entirely to help someone else out, you're gaining more than if you hadn't, because to you it's worth more in that instance to "help someone else". What you want in that case is for someone else to gain. You gain from their gaining in that instance because the thing which you profit from is their profiting. Profit isn't just about "money+things"; profit is about subjective gain in value.

I feel like you're on a roll today

Yes, helping people out is often due to cultural conditioning, social positioning, or just weird stuff like co-dependency and histrionic insecurity. But, I still don't think that in every case it ties back to some self-contained sense of personal gratification. If one truly extends past themselves, in order to facilitate the happiness of another, and receives a feeling of happiness from the accomplishment of said thing, I see no problem with that, and would consider it selfless. One is living for another at that point, their state being dependent (in a good way, that promotes mutual concern) on the state of the other. I think this is the ultimate kind of intimacy one could hope for.

[Gilly]

From a strictly biological standpoint, everything we do is selfish in the sense that our primal mechanisms of functioning tell us that it is in our best interest in terms of survival.

[strrrng]

But... from a human/moral standpoint, we can understand greater implications to acts of selflessness, and thus more genuine motivations for engaging in said things -- even if, biologically, it satisfies the 'self.'

Is sex with someone you love selfish? That kind of thing.

[FDG]

From a strictly biological standpoint, everything we do is selfish in the sense that our primal mechanisms of functioning tell us that it is in our best interest in terms of survival.

Amazon.com: Unto Others: The Evolution and Psychology of Unselfish Behavior: Prof. Elliott Sober, Prof. David Sloan Wilson, David Sloan Wilson: Books

this is an extremely interesting book on the matter. I had never thought about the issue in the way that it's presented there, so it's totally worth taking a look. The argument "everything we do is selfish, because we end up gaining something out of it, be it pleasure or money" does not take into account that sometimes humans behave in a way that they cannot rationally explain.

[JWC3]

I bet if you have some presence around you'd receive things too if you ask.

Selfish? I don't see it.

You know why the Yankees always win?
It's 'cause the other teams can't stop staring at those damn pinstripes.