What is your "dual" like?

[jessica129]

Do you care what *they* have to say though? I mean I'll be honest. I rarely give a shit about what anybody says or who they are, and other people don't really give a shit about the 'real me' either. Because that's just not how people work, unfortunately. Come on Jessica. Let's say I was straight and interested in dating you. Would you care who I was? Would you care about all my personal interests and hobbies and how I defined myself? Or would you care that we found each other mutually attractive and if I could support you and just be there for you? You'd care how responsible I was towards you.

That's what I'm talking about...that sort of thinking...It seems everyone shares that same attitude. I am being completley honest when I say that yes, when I first meet someone, I am genuinely interested in knowing who they are and what they're about. If I didn't care, I wouldn't ask them questions. I dont do it just to make conversation. I think that's where I feel really let down in my interactions with a lot of people as I'm always trying to get to know them more and know what they're about and they're content knowing nothing about me. I've spent 3 months in quarters the size of a kitchen with 40+ females and all they knew about me was that *GASP* I'm from Chicago *GASP*. Perhaps it's my own fault as I utterly and completely without a doubt hate talking about myself. But whatever. Some people enjoy talking to others just to talk about themselves. That's not me. If I ask you about you, I genuinely care 99% of the time or I don't ask at all.


and okay...wait...BD, are you saying when you're dating someone, you're not at all interested to know what the other's interests and hobbies are? What makes them tick? That seems a little self absorbed. When I'm intersted in someone, I thoroughly enjoy knowing everything about them.

[Waddlesworth]

No. That's just how testosterone works. I guess you can mentally trick yourself to not act like how a natural man is supposed to act, but men's sexuality pretty much acts that way. Getting hard easily and being quick to shoot the semen is just a natural male impulse. It has nothing to do with psychology and everything to do with physiology. Being a good lover is a technique that you learn depending on how well you emotionally care about somebody.

Psychology is the thing that builds peace between the genders and shows us our human unity and shared interests more than differences. And of course, you can be personally bothered by your natural male sexuality and how it operates on a base level. Look at the priesthood. Because humans duh, have the potential and possibility to operate higher than a base level due to our brains.

And if a guy really cares, he'll prove it and show it, despite his natural male sexuality. But then again, it's the girl's job to prove her love too. Reminds me of the movie Stardust when the star told Tristan 'How is she proving her love to you?' when he was trying to impress that one girl.

You're an idiot.

With, of course, the utmost respect.

[Waddlesworth]

and okay...wait...BD, are you saying when you're dating someone, you're not at all interested to know what the other's interests and hobbies are? What makes them tick? That seems a little self absorbed. When I'm intersted in someone, I thoroughly enjoy knowing everything about them.

BD is a homo masturbator. Why ask him for advice on this matter?

And I mean that as respectfully as possible.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

The personal insults are pretty uncalled for, don't you think?

Also you have yet to really prove how I'm wrong, so I don't think I'm an idiot.

And she didn't ask for my advice. I just gave her my opinion. I'm discussing things. It is a discussion board, right? *rolls eyes*

and okay...wait...BD, are you saying when you're dating someone, you're not at all interested to know what the other's interests and hobbies are? What makes them tick? That seems a little self absorbed.

I'm interested in what makes them tick, alright- but I have no interest whatsoever in their hobbies. For example, I'm usually into guys who are into sports and working out and stuff like that. However, me personally- I know nothing about jock-y stuff and really have no desire to. I'm much more of a geek. I figure they can talk sports with their buddies, if they are with me we are just more into each other romantically. I view your friends as people who have the same interests as you that you want to know more about. But for dating I am like 'opposites attract' usually, and I'm into guys with different hobbies than me. But I'm not into their interests at all.

[Satan]

You are projecting. I've always run after the quiet, genuine ones.

see you're just like me

[Waddlesworth]

The personal insults are pretty uncalled for, don't you think?

Also you have yet to really prove how I'm wrong, so I don't think I'm an idiot.

And she didn't ask for my advice. I just gave her my opinion. I'm discussing things. It is a discussion board, right? *rolls eyes*

You are a homo masturbator. You seem to be pretty proud of that. Good for you for being happy with your life. If I said "BD is a garbage eater" then maybe you'd want to take it personally or as an insult.

As for calling you an idiot. sorry, that's theory, just like socionics. I should have written a disclaimer.

[implied]

I'm surrounded by dozens of neanderthals on a daily basis who have not had sex in months so hmm...yeah...it's slightly hard to meet someone who actually cares at all what you have to say or who you are other than being seen as one massive vagina.

I always take time to notice the ones who seem genuine and who do seem to care. It's surely not everyday you run into those sorts. I'm feeling bitter today. Eh...fjakdjklhgf

yeah, i agree that the key is being genuine. i don't feel like there's any use in "acting" like a nice guy. maybe guys think if they act like nice guys that somehow puts them in a better position to get laid. and then that goes back to the nice guy who says he's a nice guy really loudly when all he wants is vagina, or like that's the only reason he's being nice, hah. anyhow that's ridiculous to even bother with.

eta: i don't really feel the need to judge when two mutually consenting people decide they want to have sex with each other. the thing that is "not nice" in my mind is when it's under the guise of wanting a relationship, when that isn't the goal at all.

[Waddlesworth]

eta: i don't really feel the need to judge when two mutually consenting people decide they want to have sex with each other. the thing that is "not nice" in my mind is when it's under the guise of wanting a relationship, when that isn't the goal at all.

Some say that you pick up ALL of the Karma of every person you have sex with. So be careful!

Last girl I had sex with was a balding, chain smoking alcoholic. Yeesh. I'm done for.

[implied]

Some say that you pick up ALL of the Karma of every person you have sex with. So be careful!

Last girl I had sex with was a balding, chain smoking alcoholic. Yeesh. I'm done for.

lol i get the feeling you're trying to warn me. (; thanks but it's not needed. balding? hahaha.

anyhow, it's not something that i find to be particularly appealing myself because sex is basically a medium of bonding to me, and obvs i don't want to bond on THAT level with every good looking warm body i see. i was trying to point out that i don't give a shit what other people do and it isn't a HUGE moral thing for me or something. i have a guy friend since highschool who has had a ton of sex with a ton of women. i don't really chastise him for this although i did get a little concerned about the behavior kicking his ass, psychologically/physically. anyhow, as long as they aren't harming themselves physically or psychologically (or OTHER people,) they can have sex w/ whoever they want to under whatever circumstances they wish.

[Waddlesworth]

lol i get the feeling you're trying to warn me. (; thanks but it's not needed. balding? hahaha.

You are warned.

anyhow, it's not something that i find to be particularly appealing myself because sex is basically a medium of bonding to me, and obvs i don't want to bond on THAT level with every good looking warm body i see. i was trying to point out that i don't give a shit what other people do and it isn't a HUGE moral thing for me or something. i have a guy friend since highschool who has had a ton of sex with a ton of women. i don't really chastise him for this although i did get a little concerned about the behavior kicking his ass, psychologically/physically. anyhow, as long as they aren't harming themselves physically or psychologically (or OTHER people,) they can have sex w/ whoever they want to under whatever circumstances they wish.

Casual sex is the worst for me. Especially when people start having casual sex simply because they have nothing better to do or don't know how to have meaningful sex.

I had one girl screaming so loud she woke up the neighbors. Sounded like someone was being murdered. Though it may have been pleasurable for her, I doubt the screaming was necessary. It was like she was acting. For me I prefer is quiet, subtle, and in an embracing posture. None of that doggie-style funky hardcore screaming stuff.

Another one goes "you can cum in my mouth or face if you want" and it was just like "what? don't you find that insulting?" Some people don't want it to be loving or tender, they want it to be rage, anger, etcetera. When I start being loving they go "are you joking me?" I don't get it sometimes. Women can be just as bad as men are often accused of being.

That may have been a bit more info than was appropriate. But I am just trying to illustrate.

[jewels]

Let's see...here are some random things. As far as what I'd want my "ideal" dual to be like.

They'd not want to be the center of attention. They would let me do things "my way" and not care if it was "structured" or "conventional." Wouldn't care if I was lazy one day and worked 12 hours straight running all over the city the next. I could be strong willed and persistent and they wouldn't care and would let me do my thing.

They'd be calm, not take things personally, not have hidden meanings in what they said (they'd mean exactly the words they said, blunt is good). They'd let me liven them up a bit.

They'd be supportive and grounding, letting me vent about random/funny people and situations that I find absurd or annoying -- but they'd know I don't really care ALL that much, I'm just venting and don't really hate anyone.

He'd be willing to travel long distances, do inconvenient/annoying things just to see me. He'd make sacrifices for me (personal ones, not like...goats).

The Fi relationship would be clear from things we'd both done/said. There would be stability there in knowing those feelings weren't likely to change (evolve, yeah, but not completely dissapear over night).

I wouldn't care if they did the same activities as me. They'd really just need to be there when I got home. I would like to take the dual with me out to activities, but only if they wanted to. Otherwise I could just see them later. Though I would want them to go to picnics I guess. Sometimes.

I would need to be able to be a combination of fiercely independent and at times a bit emotionally clingy (but just for a moment, until they reassured me), and then I'd be doing my thing again.

Being OK w/ me being moody, changing my approach slightly, and perhaps acting or being a bit different every day, or every hour, would be a good thing (not dramatically but I am different from time to time).

They'd need to be able to work out problems fairly bluntly by putting it all on the table and then coming to a fair compromise. We wouldn't have much routine and nothing would be "expected." Such as watching boring TV shows or needing to go bowling on a certain night...ICK. It would be OK to change or improve things whenever. Nothing stagnant. As many options let open as possible...such as getting a maid and a nanny so we could travel the world if we felt stir crazy (but still caring for the kids a lot too -- just the boring parts someone else could do).

They would help me become even more efficient, would find better ways to do things, help me carry heavy things, fix things, and have a spare key in case I get locked out. Help me fill out forms that give me headaches.

They'd let me talk...A LOT. They would like to listen. They wouldn't be conventional and would be emotionally supportive of all the random things I want to do. We would eat toast.

He'd be kind, rather brilliant. Probably some sorta introverted technical job that maybe he'd win crazy awards for but wouldn't tell anyone he'd won them. And they'd be collecting dust in some closet because who cares about gold stars. He'd be way smart but not pretentious. He'd make me laugh and be very reliable. He wouldn't be "artsy" or particularly creative. Maybe he'd be able to cook. He'd be sorta a wandering type person, very independent and strong, and he'd wander back to me without even trying.

yay.

[strrrng]

dual....

strong, grounded, knows when to correct me without being overbearing, sensitive and insightful, searching, motivated towards progressive action and substantial goals, certain of their beliefs and understanding of how things work, unmoving in the face of adversity, able to withstand my tumultuous bullshit because they see through it, not afraid to make the leap to attain unrestrained intimacy on all levels, willing to take large risks with me as a means to 'live for the other', tactically-minded, nonjudgmental appreciation of me -- 'scars and all', self-controlled impulsivity, pretty much a solid force who can accept their weak side and who possesses an undying passion for experience.

[munenori2]

My 'dual' is someone openminded about life. She makes things, regular old run of the mill things, seem new and more deep than I thought they were. She isn't conventional unless she's decided a convention is worth her choosing it for herself. She tends to question a lot of stuff I and other people often take for granted and comes to her own conclusions about whatever it happens to be. As a result, she's gotten together a completely novel, awesomely unique view of the world. She's alive and engaging in a way that shows a lot of curiousity, spontanaeity and not really giving a damn about what other people think. Someone I could mention the topic of philosophy and her eyes wouldn't glaze over nor would she start talking about The Secret or tell me that all I need to know about philosophy is in The Bible.

I'm a positive person, so someone that responds well to that. I like things to keep an upbeat feel. Obviously, if she were really critical or combative, that would suck. I need someone playful, inventive, easygoing who doesn't mind me if I get goofy or sappy or, and it will happen, sort of emo. She won't judge me or try to make sense of the way I feel. Someone who can appreciate that I want to express what I'm feeling, not sit down and talk it over. I can do this a tiny bit...but it's hard and really really awkward. If she can get it by all the things I like to do for her that's so much easier.

She wouldn't have weird physical boundaries, doesn't like freak out when she gets a hug or do that strange thing where you hug someone while maintaining the maximum amount of distance possible and somehow failing to exert any amount of pressure whatsoever. Fake hugs Sprawling out together on the couch or bed would be time well spent. She can relax with me without feeling like it's a waste of time or boring as hell. Likes to be touched. Less love is a battlefield and more love is a playground.

Someone not that clingy, but way more outgoing than I am. I need some alone time though so, in the interests of me not going insane, she's going to have to let me do my own thing from time to time.

Similar interests would be fantastic, smart, funny in a clever way, someone I can stare at for days, has unique talents I wouldn't have ever guessed, gets me into trouble, knows how to have fun and wants to have fun, wants kids, that's all I've got right now.

[ragnar]

before I met my dual, this is what I would say I wanted ... :

Except for pt 11 ("liked a girl who can cook and home-make") and possibly two or three more, I'd fail miserably to satisfy the 16 pts you listed.

[Park]

When I think about it, all I really want is emotional loyalty and support. Someone who has stable personal ethics and knows where they stand.

[mu4]

A man would walk through puke, vomit and shit if there was a good piece of ass on the other side.' haha

Naw....

We'll do this to show off to our friends maybe.

$$$ gets you this without all the hassle. Also you don't have to replace your clothing afterwords.

What you're talking about is social competition and alpha male dominance gamesmanship, not relationship building. It's competitive exercise amongst males, the female is merely a object. We retain this sort of greater primate behavioral characteristic because it opens doors to more diverse genetic material.

But we've moved past being monkeys and also deal with information as a characteristic of bonding rather then dominance and submission. Yea, it still is nice to have money, be the alpha male and get the girls hunting you, but more often people settle into a partnership for breeding and child-rearing. Also because of the amount of education and information we have to impart our children, unless we're overwhelmingly resource rich, it's takes dedication on the part of these partners to attain success.

[FDG]

I know guys like that. I used to be one myself, too.

Women usually don't even notice such guys among all the exciting neanderthals all around. My bet is you're surrounded by dozens of nice guys and they're like air to you. And available almost instantly - after recovering from the surprise that you'd be for them.

Some of these guys can't handle a "direct" expression of romantic interest, though - they may have to be approached gently and patiently and with a bottom-of-the-heart sort of caring on your part for many months before direct romantic intentions can be made obvious.

Please feel free to get all upset for me opining thus.

That's a crock of shit, I'm a nice guy but I never had trouble with girls. Well, I mean, I'm nice to girls, not extremely nice overall maybe.

[The Exception]

My ideal dual would:

*Respect me for the kind of person I am and not try to change me.

*Be an excellent listener- someone I could talk to when I have a problem or concern involving my weak areas. Someone I can freely share my feelings with.

*Someone who shares my sense of humor is a plus. Someone who loves to laugh and make fun of the absurdities in this world.

*Someone who has a love of learning, likes to try new things, and is open minded.

*Someone who openly shows love and affection but is not overly gushy about it.

*Someone who is concerned about my physical comfort and well being but I don't want someone who asks me every couple of minutes about it. Too much assistance is annoying.

*Shares most of my key interests.

*Someone who will do their share of work around the house.

*Someone who respects my sense of personal space and gives me plenty of alone time to reflect and contemplate and is not offended when I want this.

[eunice]

My 'dual'.......

Someone who is a thinker and have a child-like curiosity and enthusiasm towards life, always looking forward to learning new things and gaining new experiences. He's witty and sharp, having the ability to learn fast and understand things easily. He strives to enjoy whatever he is doing and tries not to take things too seriously. He is someone who loves his family and enjoys the simple pleasures of life, and not been too concerned about title and prestige. He believes in work-life harmony and aims to spend quality time with his family and friends, and still have time for himself.

[ragnar]

That's a crock of shit, I'm a nice guy ... Well, I mean, I'm nice to girls, not extremely nice overall maybe.

[Cheesy]

The whole nice guys thing is a complex issue. Personally I look for quiet men. But most of my friends are looking for the not so good guys. They'll never admit it but it's true. It takes real common sense and self love to know that you don't want this gorgeous jerk around you that thinks he's the hottest thing around. Women go after these men and make themselves miserable, instead of looking for men that love and appreciate them. But I have to say that I find it rare to come across a good guy.. Maybe the nice ones are also taking the badass approach but I'm looking for the ones that stick to their own character and give a shit about what's popular.

[Wynch]

I can clarify this entire issue.

It's called "Nice Guy Syndrome". It's not because guys are genuinely nice people that they have difficulty, but that they are nice to the point of having no spine. Unless a woman is actually looking for a guy she can pretty much crush or completely wrap around her finger, she doesn't want someone who is a total flop.

It's part of the equal relationship mentality. Strong women who are firm believers in equal partnership want someone who can stand toe to toe with them. That doesn't mean they have to be mean or hardened or loud or meatheads. It just means that they need to have the confidence to stand up for themselves and what they want and need, to be themselves, etc. Who wants a partner who is so terrified of upsetting you or displeasing you that they are uncomfortable expressing an opinion or taking part in decision making? Maria and Jessica may relate to this, but I find that because I have such a strong personality that I seem to attract men who are looking for me to be #1 in the relationship while they ride in the back seat. You just can't talk to people like that or participate in a relationships with them. It's like having a relationship with the bobblehead on your front dash. I want someone who wants to ride up front with me.

Unfortnately, a lot of genuinely nice guys suffer from nice guy syndrome and are nice to the point of being a limp dick looking for a new breast to suckle from.

A point of clarfication: Crying doesn't mean you have NGS, being tender doesn't mean you have NGS, doing nice things doesn't mean you have NGS.

[tereg]

I can clarify this entire issue.

It's called "Nice Guy Syndrome". It's not because guys are genuinely nice people that they have difficulty, but that they are nice to the point of having no spine. Unless a woman is actually looking for a guy she can pretty much crush or completely wrap around her finger, she doesn't want someone who is a total flop.

It's part of the equal relationship mentality. Strong women who are firm believers in equal partnership want someone who can stand toe to toe with them. That doesn't mean they have to be mean or hardened or loud or meatheads. It just means that they need to have the confidence to stand up for themselves and what they want and need, to be themselves, etc. Who wants a partner who is so terrified of upsetting you or displeasing you that they are uncomfortable expressing an opinion or taking part in decision making? Maria and Jessica may relate to this, but I find that because I have such a strong personality that I seem to attract men who are looking for me to be #1 in the relationship while they ride in the back seat. You just can't talk to people like that or participate in a relationships with them. It's like having a relationship with the bobblehead on your front dash. I want someone who wants to ride up front with me.

Unfortnately, a lot of genuinely nice guys suffer from nice guy syndrome and are nice to the point of being a limp dick looking for a new breast to suckle from.

A point of clarfication: Crying doesn't mean you have NGS, being tender doesn't mean you have NGS, doing nice things doesn't mean you have NGS.

It's so true it hurts.

But you're right. You know it, I know that you know it. And even after several years of fighting myself over this issue, I make very little progress.

[tereg]

And it pretty much boils down to this: I haven't because I've chosen not to.

[Mattie]

My "Dual"!

He would confident but not arrogant, very sure of himself while still being open to suggestions for change. He would have to have the capacity to have confidence for me to, and not feel irritated when I need some reassurance. I would like him to feel comfortable of showing his weak sides or vulnerabilities to me, and know it's okay to need some nurturing every once in a while.

There would need to be a nice balance between independence and time for the two of us. I would let him go off and do what he wants, any adventures, long fix-it projects, off to the sports bar with the guys, whatever applies to his interests, as well he wouldn't feel pressured to come along to all of my social engagements. But there definitely needs to be some shared activities that's personal to us... Sort of like the "best friend" aspect of the relationship, where we can have inside jokes, have conversations to talk about etc. We will ALWAYS have to be in communication, and he has to be responsible for keeping his phone around and charged to answer. I'm not needy where I need to call all the time and just blab about how I broke a nail, but I will get anxious if something comes up and I need him, and then can't get in contact. A lot of the time I'm doing things spur of the moment, so I can't wait a couple of hours to hear his opinion on something I'm doing at the time. As long as he answers his phone/calls back within a reasonable amount of time, I'm fine.

What's very important is accepting me as me. He wouldn't see me as "weird" or some sort of novelty/caricature that most people see me as. He would appreciate my quirks and actually enjoy the conversations we have, and the way I think, instead of just my physical appearance. He would want to see the real me and want me to be the real me with him. At the same time, he would be receptive to me naturally wanting to cheer him up and fill his life with interesting ideas and motivations. He would be skilled at giving me practical advice and covering the more mundane aspects of life that I'm horrible at, but not in a way that constantly rains on my parade so to speak.

He wouldn't need to be overly affectionate in an outward manner, loyalty is a nice constant that satisfies this. Someone I know won't change their mind about me randomly, and will stick with me, even when I'm doing dumb things. I don't mind random/subtle PDA, love holding hands, sitting in laps, but I don't necessarily need to make out in public. Though, I do like spontaneous teasing... Especially if I'm the one doing it I like to challenge a guy's self-control, and they should have a rather formidable resistance, at least in public. Then we can settle things in private Random shows of being macho is fine, as long as it's not obnoxious and persists for a long time. I'm a very open person, and wouldn't mind being "that wacky couple" at dinners and stuff. I want to joke and be playful like best friends when out, and an appropriate amount of tenderness and passion behind closed doors. I'm not into crazy nor rough stuff, but I can get imaginative/adventurous. What's most important is the emotional connection, as if we meld into one entity during sex. I'm playful in the manner that I can entertain a guy's sexual drive as long as it isn't sex every other hour. It's best spontaneous and natural, I wouldn't care if I was about to cook dinner, was in the shower, or he was watching something on TV, or carefully focusing on a project... Not being ready for it is the fun part

I think that's about it. I have more, but this seems like enough rambling

[iAnnAu]

jewels - Wow. I didn't think I'd have something to post on this thread, but basically, I'd like someone who'd like me to be the things you mentioned for him or her. Your post even mentions some of the things you'd be bringing to the table, so it even works to convey some of the things I'd want *in* a partner.

Also, mn0good, I also tend to attract guys who want me to "wear the pants." Yuck. I'm looking for someone who can match my verve, albeit in their own way; one of my least favorite things to do is make decisions for other people!

(and for a thoroughly biased and unasked for opinion, mune, your post screamed SEI waaaaay over EII)

[jessica129]

Mnogood, I basically agree with everything you wrote. Could never quite put it in such good words as you. I don't really attract those guys too often...when I do, ugh. No thanks get away. They don't seem to have any sort of personality or individuality to them.

[duality is cringe]

My dual is pure, undiluted jizz bomb.

[Wynch]

mn0good, iAnnAu and jessica129: I think you should wear the pants in important matters with no manners, because you're the logical types. About individuality (sense of humor & stuff, I believe), if the woman is the "right one" (and at least we have a clue of what that means) things come naturally, but with others men simply become clowns. You just try to squeeze something out but the whole result is an embarrassing situation, it's not even worth trying.

The issue is that if I'm going to win an argument or present the most valid case, I want there to actually be a discussion ahead of time. I want to wear the pants because I deserve to wear the pants, not because I've found the wimpiest man ever who will just do what I want. That's just plain boring, not to mention you then have no idea what your partner wants because they just seem to want to be you...

@mn0good: I was talking about such issues with 2 Canadian guys few y.a. on a software channel, and in the end they somewhat concluded they are forced by the society (or mentality) there to become "sissies". I think they were not inventing the problem, because I could see many times that in Canada the woman situation is an important matter, they have a lot of associations & stuff. Also, I heard that women have a higher priority, for example in the case of a divorce, the man has basically zero chances of winning the custody of the children. So basically the other extreme than the traditional society, but you should know better.
Maybe the percent of NGS men is too high in the area?
Afaik Sweden is in a similar situation, but I've been there and I did not have such impression.

I'm going to say no, from my observations I disagree. Yes about women typically having a better chance of winning custody battles, no to the rest of it. I think that's a ridiculous cop out, and I don't even find it reflects the nature of the men here. Again, there's a difference between accepting sensitivity and becoming a total pushover.

[jewels]

jewels - Wow. I didn't think I'd have something to post on this thread, but basically, I'd like someone who'd like me to be the things you mentioned for him or her. Your post even mentions some of the things you'd be bringing to the table, so it even works to convey some of the things I'd want *in* a partner.

awesome! I actually felt sorta selfish or something writing that, despite it being true. There was a lot of "I want this!! AND That!!" sorta feel to it, but that's terrific to know it sounded somewhat realistic to someone! I sorta feel like I wrote "I'd someday like a 15 foot tall strawberry cake." And someone wrote back "great idea! someday I would like to build that cake!" LOl. So I guess duality works

mn0good, yeah, I agree about the nice guy syndrome thing. It's not so much that they're really "nice" but that they're trying to do "nice" things to get something back...you to like them, etc. People have gotta know they can be liked just because w/o fake nice things. I think girls do the same thing. It just feels less sincere than a real action of wanting to do something nice for someone. There's also a feeling of obligation and things being unequal and it's all just from insecurity that someone could like you and really know you w/o you doing these "nice things" to sorta "serve" them or whatever. But I guess it comes down to confidence, and taking the risk of someone not liking you. I'd bet that'd improve the nice syndrome thing.

[mu4]

I can clarify this entire issue.

It's called "Nice Guy Syndrome". It's not because guys are genuinely nice people that they have difficulty, but that they are nice to the point of having no spine. Unless a woman is actually looking for a guy she can pretty much crush or completely wrap around her finger, she doesn't want someone who is a total flop.

It's part of the equal relationship mentality. Strong women who are firm believers in equal partnership want someone who can stand toe to toe with them. That doesn't mean they have to be mean or hardened or loud or meatheads. It just means that they need to have the confidence to stand up for themselves and what they want and need, to be themselves, etc. Who wants a partner who is so terrified of upsetting you or displeasing you that they are uncomfortable expressing an opinion or taking part in decision making? Maria and Jessica may relate to this, but I find that because I have such a strong personality that I seem to attract men who are looking for me to be #1 in the relationship while they ride in the back seat. You just can't talk to people like that or participate in a relationships with them. It's like having a relationship with the bobblehead on your front dash. I want someone who wants to ride up front with me.

Unfortnately, a lot of genuinely nice guys suffer from nice guy syndrome and are nice to the point of being a limp dick looking for a new breast to suckle from.

A point of clarfication: Crying doesn't mean you have NGS, being tender doesn't mean you have NGS, doing nice things doesn't mean you have NGS.

NGS is pretty much a modern problem. Men usually act the way they think women want them to act.

There isn't much NGS in Afghanistan.

Stop sending mixed messages. Until then guys just need to figure it out.

Responsibility or stability or $$$, directness and confidence is still the way to go.

Hopefully you haven't wasted all your life and potential by the time you realize this.

Wearing the pants, equal partnership, decision making, standing toe to toe, these are just expectations people have. Socionic theory predicts that dual relations will establish these parameters compatibly baring some neurotic psychological state.

[mu4]

I'm going to say no, from my observations I disagree. Yes about women typically having a better chance of winning custody battles, no to the rest of it. I think that's a ridiculous cop out, and I don't even find it reflects the nature of the men here. Again, there's a difference between accepting sensitivity and becoming a total pushover.

Women are totally insensitive to men as a general observation, they just think they're sensitive. As a whole women are as self-centered and egotistical as men.

Accepting "sensitivity"(if even it's something real or new) has to go both ways, there's a lot of mixed messages being sent to both sides of the gender divide as we go thru this balancing phase.

As a whole this response denies the feelings that men are having concerning their role in relationships, and further complicate it by providing the mixed signal of "Accepting sensitivity" and "Total pushover".

In a sense this response symbolizes the sort of bullshit men have to weed thru to get to some sort of clarity on what bitchs want. Just flash that bling guys, the girls be hollering back.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Responsibility or stability or $$$, directness and confidence is still the way to go.

Yes it goes for both parties too. Otherwise the man will just treat the woman like a whore and the girl will let the guy and then feel guilty about it. (and the guy will inevitably feel guilty too.... if he has a conscience.)

It's not so much 'confidence' as asshole dick behavior but more like 'I am confident that I want to spend time with this person and devote myself to them.' That sort of thing. It's wanting to be with the person cause you really want to be there, not cause you feel you have to- because they're being nice. Being 'too nice' just makes people feel guilty. To me anyway.

Anyway, I don't really see people make LTR based on 'confidence' alone. That's a good trick to show your interest at first, and to pick a date- But longer term, you need something of more substance, because if you fall in love and decide to be together for awhile, A LOT of your weak spots are going to show no matter how confident you are. And how do you deal with those without wanting to rip each other's spines out?

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

In a sense this response symbolizes the sort of bullshit men have to weed thru to get to some sort of clarity on what bitchs want. Just flash that bling guys, the girls be hollering back.

You sound bitter. I don't really think many women mind taking care of the money issue if the guy pulls his weight in other areas, especially not in American culture - which values and prides itself on its corporate & business feminism.

The problem is, guys hear that girls don't want a Nice Guy - not knowing what they're really saying. So they go and approach girls like a total dick and try to pick on the most low self-esteem, girl-with-issues they can find, and try to fuck with her- thinking that's what she wants and that's the role he's supposed to play. But then they just get bored, whether or not the girl gets a spine- and then hopefully all people involved grow up and grow a spine. or not.

I've never seen a relationship work out where a guy was a total fake dolt about his emotions and I've never seen a relationship work out where a guy was a pure alpha dickhead about things. I suppose that still exists in very subtle ways due to the way our natural mammal species are, but when human beings create something, it's usually out of ideals and standards, not 'Nature.' Brawny men maybe erotcized more than smart, nerdy guys- but girls will choose smart, nerdy to start a family with anyday. And I've never seen a relationship work out either where a girl just excepted to be 150% passive and let the guy make ALL the decisions cause 'he's the man' or whatever.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Let me put it this way.

Acting like a stereotypical confident alpha male or whatever will get you laid quicker and you'll be able to pick up people A LOT easier and spend time with them. I don't think anybody's denying that. I've done it myself before, and have it done to me before. (as a gay guy I'm on both ends of the spectrum here =p)

But that's not path to real love. Real love is not treating somebody like an ass when you see their weaknesses (and everybody have them)- you stay by them even when they're vulnerable. There's something romantic and sacred about that- and that's what real love is about. The closer you get to somebody, you're gonna start seeing a lot of their weak spots right? So the level of betrayal and breaking up comes that much more heart-breaking depending on how many deep steps you take.

By weaknesses I don't mean somebody not trying to get over a problem for themselves but just like, natural psychological downfalls or something... *shrug*

Of course, acting confident and just like 'whatever' and being the 'Cool Tough Guy' will make you get laid really easily, sure. Though what does that have to do with real love?

Another thing is, you don't want to go in too sensitive right away cause most women want to think that they make their man sensitive by their presence. If you come across as one of their girlfriends right away or like their Supportive Gay Male Friend, then really no chemistry can be built and it kinda sucks.

[implied]

i don't want to wear the pants. i know i tend to pick up dudes who are emotionally unstable or whatever, i guess because of what i'm like. but basically at the end of the day i want to be a female. damnit, seriously. LET ME BE FEMALE. and it definitely doesn't mean i want a guy to make all the decisions in a relationship, i get to make them, too, because i'm a human being. i'm just saying i don't want to take on the traditional role of a man in a relationship.

also b&d, i'm defo anti-let-the-guy-make-all-the-decisions b ecause yeah it seems basically demeaning to the woman. it doesn't always imply a lack of respect on the part of the guy, but it sometimes does seem as if the roles skew that way.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

sorry babe but thats a conflicting vibration. You can't scream LET ME BE FEMALE cause thats actually very male energy. you just gotta kinda be passive and yielding and then let the guy's confidence ooze off on you. =D

[implied]

sorry babe but thats a conflicting vibration. You can't scream LET ME BE FEMALE cause thats actually very male energy. you just gotta kinda be passive and yielding and then let the guy's confidence ooze off on you. =D

ahaha god what i wouldn't give to be a gay man. lol.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

It's really not as interesting as it looks...

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Well, I'm not the only one who draws weak-minded guys who want to confide in a stronger female personality.

To be fair here though, a lot of times straight girls (when they're feeling bitchy and uptight about something) like to play with the man's insecurity about being the guy and all that, when really he's not actually doing anything all that wrong. She's just being a lazy sow and then saying 'Oh you do that, cause you're the man.' But then that same girl would get all super offended, if a hot guy got up and left when he realized how smart she was.

People pretty much have the same emotional pools and the potentials thereof regardless of natural gender differences and so I guess the lesson is for all of us to act a little less like over critical douchebags.

I just think most people haven't grown up enough to know the differences between genuine caring vs. weak spinless mama's boy and true self-confidence vs. retarded, arrogant bravado.

But that's why most of us in our lost 20s. A place to personally transcend and all that gay shit.