Ideas, beliefs, and reality checks for INFjs and ENFps

[Lobo]

This is the case when it comes to flirting or any other sort of direct action. Many times EIIs I know say things like "well I don't know how it happened but all of a sudden... (he kissed me), (he asked me for my phone number) (whatever)". You guys seem clueless in terms of how your actions (or inactions) actually lead people on or deter people. And then even if you're told what they imply, there is a tendency to not want to believe it... either because of some moral reasoning, or some perceived "I don't know" feeling, or that same passive nature of feeling like you actually don't have any say in being assertive -- that the assertiveness of the other person is solely what dictates things. This is also somewhat unrealistic and it gets EIIs into trouble at times.

This part in particular stood out to me... It makes me think that you have been hurt by an EII, which is the actual motivation for your post. I might be wrong, but that's the message I'm getting. Though I don't like talking about PoLRs much, this would be an example of a good hit. But the very interesting thing about this one, is that you're showing how having an Se PoLR can actually affect an Fi matter of acquiring a connection.

...EIIs need friends to help them understand stuff like this, imo. Some consequences to not having friends to point out this stuff seem to be things like: a general numbness or ambivalence to relationships (E9s, especially); or a retreat into some sort of protective barrier or framework or ideology (E1s, especially).

YAY!! Protective barriers vary though. I can go from a picket fence to the Great Wall of China. It depends on the circumstance.

Still, i do not expect anyone to help me. I take full responsibility for my life. I am also very aware of jumping to conclusions. I am back in my home town, and a day or so ago an INFj friend smsed me out of the blue. I replied back and also said that i am back in town and that we should catch up and i told him the days which i am free. I haven't heard from him for 3 days now and i wont end up seeing him. I know what hes thinking. He is angry that i didn't tell him i was back. This is somewhat unfounded as i was probablly going to sms him that very same day (honest!!). Still, because i know him and whats probablly going through his mind i am not that angry that he hasn't replied to me lol.

Try asking him if that's the reason why he hasn't gotten back to you. I bet you will get some kind of response.

...bitch. j/k. Sorry, I just had to. But yeah, it sucks having friends like that.

The whole nature of my post is commenting on what's happening. What I mean there is that how some EIIs interpret things is like "trying to use a meterstick to measure millimeters", that is, their mechanism for understanding things like that are slow and clunky, like a huge galleon in the ocean trying to turn around. This is even much more so if it is directed AT the EII in particular - I think they are slightly better at dealing with it, outside of themselves. I'm not sure if that helps you any, as I'm not sure what you don't understand about it/what I said there.

I'm not sure if this will help or not, but here's what I said to Minde, concerning my post...

... I'm not trying to be truly objective or ascribe something that all EIIs should do or not do. It's more a collection of experiences I've had with various EIIs over the years and some of what is actually going on in those situations. As I said, a lot of what I wrote is commenting about some 'negative things'. It is not a wholey objective or all inclusive description of how EIIs work, and that was never my intention. Hopefully that lends to some understanding of what I wrote.

I'm sorry Ryu but I don't get the meter stick analogy. I know that it refers to applying some kind of broad brush to things and not knowing the nuances. At least, I think that's what you mean. But I'm still not sure about how that applies to EII in particular. It would be great if you had a specific example.

[jewels]

Sereno, this is an interesting topic. I've had that happen, as far as being suprised by someone. I think very often, I do make assumptions about people and assume they are more similar to me than not (I think everyone does this). Then, if they do something offensive or whatever, it really does surprise me. I sorta update my idea of our Fi relationship based on that, which can be very sad/dissapointing for me.

For instance, I met this ISFj who seemed very dedicated, moral, kind, etc. Then I noticed her saying some pretty mean things about people very close to her. It really bothered me, as these were important people in her life and she was saying very insulting things, like she didn't respect them. And then I saw some other actions of her's that were very selfish to the detriment of other people around her (some of these same friends she was close to). I was suprised in a bad way, as I thought she was nicer/more giving than she really was. She ended up being rather calculating and selfish, in that she'd put her needs above those of other people.

I've had other friends w/ similar situations, where maybe I started out thinking they were so good, kind, open-minded, whatever...and then I'll see them backstabbing, stealing, being selfish, etc. And that really changes how I see them.

I think you can only go on the information you have and make a conculsion based on that. So yeah, I am frequently "updating" that Fi info. And I do get surprised often, both negatively and positively. Sometimes the "jerks" do really, really nice things and I then start to change my idea of them and our relationship. I'm constantly forming these opinions and adding more info. Then it gets sort of a sum total and that is my current Fi-status in my mind. I prefer that status to stay the same, but when these "surprises" happen, it forces me to re-evaluate.

And I do have expectations for people. If they aren't kind, giving, and more or less equal in terms of giving/taking, then I'll find a way to end that relationship. I feel like expecting nothing of people would be sorta an easy way out to stop looking for fulfilling relationships. I may not "assume" someone will act a certain way, or do me a favor or wahtever, but I do have expectations about what kind of person I think they are, and what I expect our relationship will be. If that doesn't play out, then I seriously re-access and may end it, or reduce it to more of an aquaintance type thing. The "with friends like that, who needs enemies?" phrase comes to mind...

[UDP]

This part in particular stood out to me... It makes me think that you have been hurt by an EII, which is the actual motivation for your post. I might be wrong, but that's the message I'm getting.

I've been in some disappointing situations relating to EIIs, sure. But that's not the motivation for the post - the motivation was to present things in a raw fashion. As I said before, I expected it to be somewhat unappealing...

Though I don't like talking about PoLRs much, this would be an example of a good hit. But the very interesting thing about this one, is that you're showing how having an Se PoLR can actually affect an Fi matter of acquiring a connection.

Yes.
That is why I said I didn't expect it to go over well or be appealing.
This also comes in in NeFis, too.

YAY!! Protective barriers vary though. I can go from a picket fence to the Great Wall of China. It depends on the circumstance.

I don't understand what you mean here, or how much sarcasm there is.

I'm sorry Ryu but I don't get the meter stick analogy. I know that it refers to applying some kind of broad brush to things and not knowing the nuances. At least, I think that's what you mean. But I'm still not sure about how that applies to EII in particular. It would be great if you had a specific example.

You're essentially right.
It's putting a general faith in their longer term understanding of things, whatever it may be, and not knowing how to or poorly interpreting what is actually going on at the moment. The long term understanding can get in the way of, or distort, the interpretation of what's happening. I'm not really saying anything profound.

For example, if an EII has a particularly negative point of view of somebody (and the person is actually being a good person now), then they may actually distort actions to reflect that, which are happening at the present. They may automatically assume, because of past experiences, that the motivations and intentions of someone are the same as in the past. And in doing so, they may condemn someone preemptively, by relying on their long term understanding/vision of the person, they trust their own intuition over what's happening. I say "long term" which smacks of time/temporal things, but it's related to being static - and expecting things to be static, expecting constancy.

This isn't 'good' or 'bad', just something I've noticed. It's what they are strong in - ethics and intuition- so it's what they trust. It makes sense, in terms of socionics.

On the other hand, if an EII has a particularly positive point of view, and the person is actually doing bad things, the EII can have a solid 'grace period' where, because they trust their intuition and vision of the person, they keep assuming the best even though what's happening in reality doesn't match up with that. But again, as with everything, I think the more aware, and the more healthy, and the more mature the EII, the less this problem develops. Nevertheless, each type has certain weaknesses or typical things they don't deal very well with. The dual pair makes sense in tihs way - an ST would be able to balance out the NF well. Particularly in this case, a dynamic ST to balance the static NF.

It takes a while for EIIs to change their long term visions, or in some cases to even develop them. Various EIIs deal with this in different ways. Some are very reclusive and wait for a lot of data before making a grand vision about someone's ethics; some are very hopeful of people in general; some are more cynical; etc. And sometimes, EIIs personal feelings affect things, even if they don't admit it. Liking someone, being attracted to them, or conversely, disagreeing with someone or disliking certain things about them also impact this long term intuitive visions of somebody.


The meter stick analogy has to do with, imo, somewhat faulty interpretations of immediate, present moment, individual events. The reliance on intuition and long term (static) views can produce a clumsy analysis. I've seen this in various formats, in terms of EIIs getting hurt, or EIIs unintentionally leading other people on, or EIIs damaging relationships when there was actually not a threat, or even EIIs having hopes that are entirely unreasonable for someone, one way or the other. I'm not saying that EIIs are "wrong", or this is bad, I'm simply discussing a tendency that I've seen in EIIs - and highlighting the negative aspects of the tendency. I've not gone into the positive aspects very much.

It's understandable that EIIs may develop a cautious nature.

[Lobo]

Yes.
That is why I said I didn't expect it to go over well or be appealing.
This also comes in in NeFis, too.

Ryu, it doesn't matter if it's unappealing as long as it's your perception. I like reading about possible behaviors of mine that might have gone unnoticed in my daily happenings, and I find it an interesting read. There are some things you have said that don't apply in my case, so I just consider what is applicable and that's it. I know that you probably don't want people to dislike you because of what you're saying, but if they take it personally then it's their fault (though sometimes the delivery is as important than the actual thing said). The only thing that I don't like is if someone presents information as a way to belittle or for other reasons that are not informative and useful.

I don't understand what you mean here, or how much sarcasm there is.

It wasn't sarcastic, just a bad joke. I'm just saying that I'm able to build up personal barriers, that's all.

You're essentially right.
It's putting a general faith in their longer term understanding of things, whatever it may be, and not knowing how to or poorly interpreting what is actually going on at the moment. The long term understanding can get in the way of, or distort, the interpretation of what's happening. I'm not really saying anything profound.

For example, if an EII has a particularly negative point of view of somebody (and the person is actually being a good person now), then they may actually distort actions to reflect that, which are happening at the present. They may automatically assume, because of past experiences, that the motivations and intentions of someone are the same as in the past. And in doing so, they may condemn someone preemptively, by relying on their long term understanding/vision of the person, they trust their own intuition over what's happening. I say "long term" which smacks of time/temporal things, but it's related to being static - and expecting things to be static, expecting constancy.

This isn't 'good' or 'bad', just something I've noticed. It's what they are strong in - ethics and intuition- so it's what they trust. It makes sense, in terms of socionics.

On the other hand, if an EII has a particularly positive point of view, and the person is actually doing bad things, the EII can have a solid 'grace period' where, because they trust their intuition and vision of the person, they keep assuming the best even though what's happening in reality doesn't match up with that. But again, as with everything, I think the more aware, and the more healthy, and the more mature the EII, the less this problem develops. Nevertheless, each type has certain weaknesses or typical things they don't deal very well with. The dual pair makes sense in tihs way - an ST would be able to balance out the NF well. Particularly in this case, a dynamic ST to balance the static NF.

It takes a while for EIIs to change their long term visions, or in some cases to even develop them. Various EIIs deal with this in different ways. Some are very reclusive and wait for a lot of data before making a grand vision about someone's ethics; some are very hopeful of people in general; some are more cynical; etc. And sometimes, EIIs personal feelings affect things, even if they don't admit it. Liking someone, being attracted to them, or conversely, disagreeing with someone or disliking certain things about them also impact this long term intuitive visions of somebody.


The meter stick analogy has to do with, imo, somewhat faulty interpretations of immediate, present moment, individual events. The reliance on intuition and long term (static) views can produce a clumsy analysis. I've seen this in various formats, in terms of EIIs getting hurt, or EIIs unintentionally leading other people on, or EIIs damaging relationships when there was actually not a threat, or even EIIs having hopes that are entirely unreasonable for someone, one way or the other. I'm not saying that EIIs are "wrong", or this is bad, I'm simply discussing a tendency that I've seen in EIIs - and highlighting the negative aspects of the tendency. I've not gone into the positive aspects very much.

It's understandable that EIIs may develop a cautious nature.

This is very interesting, and I don't have much to say about it. I'm not really in the "present" at times. I do believe that with a long term mentality you can enjoy some of the things in the present more, but sometimes the opposite happens. It really frustrates me when some people don't realize when some periods won't last forever, and it just goes by them without really making the most of it. I'm very aware of time in that sense. It's like I know how special a moment is, as cheesy as it sounds.

It's not so much in thinking about the long term as necessarily years from now, but always thinking one step forward, even if it is what will happen the next day. I don't like making huge long term plans, like where I want to be 10 years from now. In that sense I prefer taking things step by step, and gradually moving forward towards a direction.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Lobo]

You Ne + Fi write a damn lot. Although I'm interested, I'm not patient enough to read all.

Envelopes coming from your types rarely fit in the mailbox.

haha. Hey, I've posted half as many posts as you.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Delilah]

I have gotten the occasional 'reality check' in a big way to where something unexpected might have woke me to a situation i had not been prepared for. This has happened in 1 or 2 scenarios where i didn't have access to enough information about the other party. I don't think it is common. Usually I have a pretty good idea or at least, yes, like OP said, something has seemed off before any confirmation.

And yes, i try to remind myself to have expectations of other people, I even went through a period to where i had to tell myself that it is ok to have expectations as i felt guilty to expect something / anything of others.