Ideas, beliefs, and reality checks for INFjs and ENFps

[Lobo]

Is it common for you guys to get reality checks, like believing that something is a certain way, only to be caught off guard later on at some point? I mean especially when it comes to knowing how you stand with someone else. For example, you might believe that a person can be trusted with something, only to be surprised when they act in a way that says otherwise. Or, you believe that you and someone else are closer than what you really are, and then a bomb gets dropped, and it's supposed to be "obvious" but for some reason you just couldn't see it... I've gotten better at keeping a distance to observe, but I keep falling for external actions as my way of determining how things are. I don't like to have to think about ulterior motives, or things that are just not apparent at a given time. I guess because of this I've gotten better at dealing with this kind of disappointment, and recognizing things that even though look a certain way, from experience they're not. I think it's also a matter of assuming things too much as well.

There's also something that I find strange, which is that whenever there is a situation where I'm assuming something is not like it really is, I always have a gut feeling that something's not right, but I just can't pinpoint what... So I ask myself if I should follow the gut feeling, even though it doesn't make much sense at the moment, or try to figure it out in a concrete way, which is what I always end up doing. I consider myself to be pretty good at knowing when something is "off," but rather bad at knowing what it is.

[The Greeter]

Sereno, Sereno, this is exactly what's going through my mind right now.

In my situation I have a feeling that the other person wants to be closer to me than I am comfortable with. We are already established as friends and I want to remain at that distance. But lately something does not seem quite right and I plan to talk to him about it. And, as you said, it's all the gut telling me this. It's also difficult to ignore this feeling.

Sometimes, though, my reality checks also entails the realization of not being right about something. That is, I initially do what I feel is right but, after thinking about it some more or even almost at random, reality hits, and it turns out things aren't as certain as I previously thought.

[Simon Ssmall]

I rarely if ever put expectations on people and thats how I go about with my life. I depend on myself and I prefer it that way. I am prone to idolise my loved ones but if I am disappointed its not due to what I expect from them, but rather for something I did not expect from them and that happens rarely.

[Mattie]

I can't say this happens to me too often with relationships, but every where else. Anything that has mundane details to upkeep on, I assume for the most part things will work out, and then all of a sudden whatever situation pops up that I should have saw coming. I typically have an inkling of everything going on in my social life, I'm almost never out of the know, unless people have been deliberately hiding things from me. Even then, I can tell, but it tends to be lost in the realms of possibilities that I keep in my mind but don't dwell on. I think I'm less resolute in that sense than FiNe, and I have many possibilities in mind that I always am tentative until I find out for sure what the situation is.

[Wrong Way Ticket]

I can't say this happens to me too often with relationships, but every where else. Anything that has mundane details to upkeep on, I assume for the most part things will work out, and then all of a sudden whatever situation pops up that I should have saw coming. I typically have an inkling of everything going on in my social life, I'm almost never out of the know, unless people have been deliberately hiding things from me. Even then, I can tell, but it tends to be lost in the realms of possibilities that I keep in my mind but don't dwell on. I think I'm less resolute in that sense than FiNe, and I have many possibilities in mind that I always am tentative until I find out for sure what the situation is.

This is spot on!

[Wrong Way Ticket]

I rarely if ever put expectations on people and thats how I go about with my life. I depend on myself and I prefer it that way. I am prone to idolise my loved ones but if I am disappointed its not due to what I expect from them, but rather for something I did not expect from them and that happens rarely.

I agree with this. I don't give much away so it's hard to be let down by someone. Sometimes my hopes were higher than reality but I know that in the back of my mind. So it's not a feeling of being let down or disappointed.

I never expect anything of anyone. I give what I can to the people I love and try not to hold them to fulfilling any expectations.

[Lobo]

I can't say this happens to me too often with relationships, but every where else. Anything that has mundane details to upkeep on, I assume for the most part things will work out, and then all of a sudden whatever situation pops up that I should have saw coming. I typically have an inkling of everything going on in my social life, I'm almost never out of the know, unless people have been deliberately hiding things from me. Even then, I can tell, but it tends to be lost in the realms of possibilities that I keep in my mind but don't dwell on. I think I'm less resolute in that sense than FiNe, and I have many possibilities in mind that I always am tentative until I find out for sure what the situation is.

I hate mundane details . Actually, the possibilities thing you mention is something I do as well. It frustrates me when people on one hand consider you negative because you think of negative possibilities, and then on the other, you're called naive because you just should have thought about that negative outcome before... That's why I just want to know the truth and a lot of info, instead of having to think about everything that can happen.

I rarely if ever put expectations on people and thats how I go about with my life. I depend on myself and I prefer it that way. I am prone to idolise my loved ones but if I am disappointed its not due to what I expect from them, but rather for something I did not expect from them and that happens rarely.

I find it hard not to expect certain things from people, namely respect, honoring a commitment, honestly, and so on. In a way, for me to not expect these things is like looking down on someone, which just might just be a subjective point of view. However, with experience and time I'm able to watch out for warning signs that let me know something is up, before it actually happens. Sometimes it just doesn't happen, and I can't help but feel surprised, especially when I let my guard down. Well, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger . It's logical for me to not expect things from people, but I find it hard for some reason.

Sereno, Sereno, this is exactly what's going through my mind right now.

In my situation I have a feeling that the other person wants to be closer to me than I am comfortable with. We are already established as friends and I want to remain at that distance. But lately something does not seem quite right and I plan to talk to him about it. And, as you said, it's all the gut telling me this. It's also difficult to ignore this feeling.

Sometimes, though, my reality checks also entails the realization of not being right about something. That is, I initially do what I feel is right but, after thinking about it some more or even almost at random, reality hits, and it turns out things aren't as certain as I previously thought.

From my experience, like 100% of the time I have a bad feeling about something, there's definitely something that's off. Trust your gut, that's why it's there. Instincts. But of course, you need closure of knowing what you felt was wrong. I had a similar situation with a girl once. Just prepare what you will say if the guy asks you for something more than friends .

[Minde]

Is it common for you guys to get reality checks, like believing that something is a certain way, only to be caught off guard later on at some point? I mean especially when it comes to knowing how you stand with someone else. For example, you might believe that a person can be trusted with something, only to be surprised when they act in a way that says otherwise. Or, you believe that you and someone else are closer than what you really are, and then a bomb gets dropped, and it's supposed to be "obvious" but for some reason you just couldn't see it... I've gotten better at keeping a distance to observe, but I keep falling for external actions as my way of determining how things are. I don't like to have to think about ulterior motives, or things that are just not apparent at a given time. I guess because of this I've gotten better at dealing with this kind of disappointment, and recognizing things that even though look a certain way, from experience they're not. I think it's also a matter of assuming things too much as well.

There's also something that I find strange, which is that whenever there is a situation where I'm assuming something is not like it really is, I always have a gut feeling that something's not right, but I just can't pinpoint what... So I ask myself if I should follow the gut feeling, even though it doesn't make much sense at the moment, or try to figure it out in a concrete way, which is what I always end up doing. I consider myself to be pretty good at knowing when something is "off," but rather bad at knowing what it is.

Often those feelings are subtle, and if I over-think them I can get in trouble. It's like little blinker lights that indicate direction or under-the-surface stuff. I dunno. Hard to describe.

Sometimes I ignore those feelings because "reason" says otherwise, or because I want too much for it not to be. So my understanding can get clouded that way.

Then again, I can sometimes get the feelings wrong, or misinterpret them, because I don't have enough info. I'm not very observant in general, and though a lot of clues seep in unconsciously, enough to give me often accurate feelings, sometimes I just plain miss important details or events that would reshape my understanding of what's going on if I incorporated them into the picture.

For example, sometimes a friend will start dating someone and it will take me by surprise because I just haven't been noticing the clues pointing in that direction. When I take a closer look, usually it all makes sense (relational, not necessarily logical, sense) in retrospect, but I nonetheless totally missed seeing it coming, mainly because I totally failed in picking up on the available clues.

As for knowing how I stand with people, and how they'll treat me, I usually know how they feel but there are times, particularly in the business world, that I get surprised. And that sort of vague feeling that something isn't right applies to me, too, though often I tend to ignore it, hoping I'm wrong or that I can make it go away by continuing to be nice and friendly. And, like you Sereno, it's hard to pinpoint what exactly is wrong.

In fact, it's hard to pinpoint or articulate a lot of what I sense that way. I mean, some things are obvious, like "he likes her" or "she respects so-and-so, and is a little afraid, too", but there are other things that are there but much harder to define or even describe unless you see it happen and can point it out.

Sereno, Sereno, this is exactly what's going through my mind right now.

In my situation I have a feeling that the other person wants to be closer to me than I am comfortable with. We are already established as friends and I want to remain at that distance. But lately something does not seem quite right and I plan to talk to him about it. And, as you said, it's all the gut telling me this. It's also difficult to ignore this feeling.

Sometimes, though, my reality checks also entails the realization of not being right about something. That is, I initially do what I feel is right but, after thinking about it some more or even almost at random, reality hits, and it turns out things aren't as certain as I previously thought.

Yeah...

It frustrates me when people on one hand consider you negative because you think of negative possibilities, and then on the other, you're called naive because you just should have thought about that negative outcome before... That's why I just want to know the truth and a lot of info, instead of having to think about everything that can happen.

I can relate to this. In many respects, I crave certainty. I can sense the connections and directions of things and all the millions of possibilities, but it's comforting when the connection is explicit and steady, so I don't have to keep track of it and redefine it all the time, and it's refreshing when I can zero in on three or four possibilities instead of millions. Or, better yet, it's nice when I know all I need to know in order to act, that way I can play with variety at my leisure without having to figure out which possibility is actually the likeliest, etc.

I find it hard not to expect certain things from people, namely respect, honoring a commitment, honestly, and so on. In a way, for me to not expect these things is like looking down on someone, which just might just be a subjective point of view. However, with experience and time I'm able to watch out for warning signs that let me know something is up, before it actually happens. Sometimes it just doesn't happen, and I can't help but feel surprised, especially when I let my guard down. Well, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger . It's logical for me to not expect things from people, but I find it hard for some reason.

I find it natural to go into situations and relationships expecting things to just go well and for people to be nice and kindly and good. It's kind of like that's the way it should be, so that's my default. Of course, once my trust is really broken, once that connection has been seriously damaged between us, the same thing happens but in opposite - where I find myself expecting and trying to avoid bad, even if it might not be there. Although, heh, even then my natural tendency of expecting (or wanting?) good will take over occasionally, making my caution erratic.

From my experience, like 100% of the time I have a bad feeling about something, there's definitely something that's off. Trust your gut, that's why it's there. Instincts. But of course, you need closure of knowing what you felt was wrong.

I think sometimes it's that need for closure, for knowing what was really going on, that can lead me to over-analyze and miss even more or get it wrong or misinterpret. Which actually just makes things more confusing. And makes the reality checks all that more important, as well as startling and unbalancing.

[meatburger]

mistake

[Lobo]

I guess the answer to my question is like an EII/IEE divider. Wouldn't it be open to potential abuse to not expect things from people? Let me see if I can explain what I mean...

The way I go about any sort of relationship, be it friendship, is that I have certain requirements that need to be met, which I consider to be "understood" already. As a friend, I expect someone not to act a certain way, otherwise, it makes it hard for me to consider that person as a friend. I put a lot of importance in how I'm treated. If I were to list all of the problems I've had with friends, they would all come down to this. I'm very easy going and I joke around all the time, but when I'm treated in a way that I don't expect to be treated, it turns me off. This definitely puts a strain sometimes in the "go with the flow"/"let it go" factor of a relationship.

On the other hand there are some people I've known who don't expect things, and are of the "I'll take what I can get" mentality, that sometimes end up abused without them being aware of it, and seem to not really care about it. Of course, what I consider potentially disrespectful might just be "ok" with someone else. (I do have high standards ). For example, I had a friend tell me that "if I write to someone asking for help and they don't get back to me, I'm ok with it because I can't expect them to leave what their doing to write back." I see the honorable factor in thinking this way, but it just doesn't compute for me that if a friend asks for genuine help they do not respond.

What kills me about having friends that don't expect much in general is that regardless of how much I might bust my ass to obtain a kind of "friendship promotion," to somehow earn a better place, it just goes unnoticed, and seems like they don't care. It's like "it's the same to me," and they'll treat you the same way as before, no special treatment whatsoever. I can't help but get pissed off at this, and just go on ignore mode . I'm an ambitious guy, I can't help it.

[UDP]

General commentary so far:
(it may not be directly related to the thread, but inspired by it)
(it includes some realism and critique, so be warned)


What's lovely about Fi dominants is that when they are really into 'you' (or me), then they stay that way. That is really nice and rewarding and comforting.

But I think they don't realize how impractical it is to apply Fi as a way of thinking to areas outside of relationships... and even then, being aware of your tendencies interpersonally. It seems like EIIs tend to be either too positive or too negative in their feelings of some people (or Fi dominants in general), particularly if things are not really settled yet, or there are fluctuations. It's like trying to use a meterstick to measure millimeters... it's just not really functional.

Fi people are very .... uneasy in situations like that, where things arne't crystal clear, and I get that. But you have to just deal with it sometimes... and not get too depressed because a lot of bad stuff happened, or too optimistic because no one has ever 'done you wrong before' , in your eyes.

For EIIs in particularly, I really like the idea of getting to know people and having really solid relationships with them that do stay the same way. That's comforting for me, too. But you do have to deal with reality at times in that things aren't always going to be that way, however unpleasant it might be. I think EIIs have trouble realizing when to not let their expectations damage their mood or feelings about other people -- yes, they may know something is wrong or not right, but they aren't aware of what it is, or how to deal with it themselves, in an active, volitional way.

They aren't really very good at showing ambition or implementing changes. In fact, you guys seem prone to just watching things happen and sometimes just lamenting about things, or getting depressed, or even just commenting on how bad things are going and showing little real ability or know-how in changing things.

Particularly if EIIs think something is going bad, sometimes they just seem to complain about it and passive aggressively let it continue being bad, almost so that they can have a sense of rightness or blamelessness. This may be a subconscious mechanism, or simply their own firm belief that they cannot really do anything to actually change the situation, other than express discontent with it. Really, it's just a general lack of assertiveness. It's sort of an illusionary justification that if the EII doesn't get involved or try to be assertive, then it can safely just sit there and wait for things to happen on their own. (ETA The nice side of this is that an EII is really happy and positively receptive when EII thinks things are going well; it's a general sense of trust in their understanding of the overall direction things are going in. It's fabulous when things are going well in actuality and also in the EII's understanding. But big upsets happen when the EII believes something is working a certain way but in reality it is not).

This (before ETA, 'unassertive') isn't really out of character for an EII, but it is an unhealthy possibility to be wary about. That sort of action is not going to help or benefit relationships, it's just going to protect the EII and their own ego. It's where EIIs can improve and develop their gumption, assertiveness, and willpower.

If EIIs are lucky they're be around people who don't put them in those situations.

I don't expect EIIs to exert themselves in terms of relationship development, really; I sort of like that I'm in charge of that stuff, the forward energy, as their dual. But sometimes this passivity seems to both stagnate or thwart any room for progress; and it also can lead to a sort of delusional attitude towards things - particularly avoiding or just rejecting things the don't want to feel or deal with, or that fit into their moral framework of how things are supposed to be. So in such situations, it seems that EIIs either dwell on their own thoughts and feelings or need someone, with an opinion that they trust, to explain to them what to do . If the EII things you are currently untrustworthy or incredible, then your influence over them is minimalized, even if what you say is correct or would be beneficial (I say some of these things as tips for people dealing with EIIs).

Finally, I think EIIs are relatively poor at understanding how the instantaneous actions and events affect things. They tend to just refer to their general big picture view of the direction things are going in. But when they try to discern the here and now, it's back to that analogy: trying to measure millimeters with a meterstick. I suggest they refer to other trusted people to get input on those things, preferably unidealistic ST types... even if only so as to balance out their own tendencies.

This is the case when it comes to flirting or any other sort of direct action. Many times EIIs I know say things like "well I don't know how it happened but all of a sudden... (he kissed me), (he asked me for my phone number) (whatever)". You guys seem clueless in terms of how your actions (or inactions) actually lead people on or deter people. And then even if you're told what they imply, there is a tendency to not want to believe it... either because of some moral reasoning, or some perceived "I don't know" feeling, or that same passive nature of feeling like you actually don't have any say in being assertive -- that the assertiveness of the other person is solely what dictates things. This is also somewhat unrealistic and it gets EIIs into trouble at times.

...EIIs need friends to help them understand stuff like this, imo. Some consequences to not having friends to point out this stuff seem to be things like: a general numbness or ambivalence to relationships (E9s, especially); or a retreat into some sort of protective barrier or framework or ideology (E1s, especially).


That said, I go back to the start, and I say that it sure is nice when an Fi dominant has a particularly good opinion of you. Te dominant people really crave that, it gives us the sense of balance, an anchor, a home base, something to depend on. But in the context of EIIs in particularly (I think ESIs are different as they can tell, in S/Se terms, more instantaneously what's happening... somewhat), I suppose I'd just be cautious about the interpretation of and dealing with the more instantaneous events. From a caretaker standpoint, it definitely makes you guys seem vulnerable.

[Lobo]

But I think they don't realize how impractical it is to apply Fi as a way of thinking to areas outside of relationships... and even then, being aware of your tendencies interpersonally. It seems like EIIs tend to be either too positive or too negative in their feelings of some people (or Fi dominants in general), particularly if things are not really settled yet, or there are fluctuations. It's like trying to use a meterstick to measure millimeters... it's just not really functional.

I don't understand what you mean. The first part I see true for any person, in that they try to apply their way of thinking to everything. The second parts sounds subjective, so I don't know what to make of it. Ironically, it seems like an Fi argument.

Fi people are very .... uneasy in situations like that, where things arne't crystal clear, and I get that. But you have to just deal with it sometimes... and not get too depressed because a lot of bad stuff happened, or too optimistic because no one has ever 'done you wrong before' , in your eyes.

It's true that for me I get uneasy when things aren't crystal clear. Obviously, things won't always be crystal clear. In general though, what good is it to say "you just deal with it sometimes"? or "don't get too depressed or optimistic"? I'd rather know some kind of action to take in order to not do it, rather than just being told something that, quite frankly, is kind of obvious.

For EIIs in particularly, I really like the idea of getting to know people and having really solid relationships with them that do stay the same way. That's comforting for me, too. But you do have to deal with reality at times in that things aren't always going to be that way, however unpleasant it might be. I think EIIs have trouble realizing when to not let their expectations damage their mood or feelings about other people -- yes, they may know something is wrong or not right, but they aren't aware of what it is, or how to deal with it themselves, in an active, volitional way.

Some things need to be taught, otherwise you just wing it with whatever internal resources you might have.

They aren't really very good at showing ambition or implementing changes. In fact, you guys seem prone to just watching things happen and sometimes just lamenting about things, or getting depressed, or even just commenting on how bad things are going and showing little real ability or know-how in changing things.

Humans do this in general.

I don't expect EIIs to exert themselves in terms of relationship development, really; I sort of like that I'm in charge of that stuff, the forward energy, as their dual. But sometimes this passivity seems to both stagnate or thwart any room for progress

Hmmm. At least in my case, this seems way off. But actually, I can see that happening if the other person sort of takes charge of that position more frequently. I see this dynamic of back and forth happening with an SLI friend of mine. For example, if I make contact frequently, he steps back, and vice-versa. But really, if you are constantly providing the forward energy all of the time, then you're just developing complacency. Without knowing it you're bringing that upon yourself. If someone cleans your house, fixes the yard, makes your food, gives you money, and does this all the time and you get used to it, can you really expect them to just do these things out of the blue?

Something I'm not sure about what you are writing here is that for one you seem to know that EII's are consistent in their feelings towards you, and yet you are saying that the passivity doesn't allow for progress and relationship development. I suspect that you are talking about the initial part of a relationship when you "get the ball rolling." But even then, if I'm interested enough, I will do it. If someone is too forward though, I'll let them do it.

I'll get back to the other things later and meatburger's post. Right now I'm tired. But really, I think the issue in all of this is a problem with attachment. Learning how to detach myself from things/people/situations, and being confident in letting things happen naturally.

[UDP]

Something I'm not sure about what you are writing here is that for one you seem to know that EII's are consistent in their feelings towards you, and yet you are saying that the passivity doesn't allow for progress and relationship development.

The passivity that I described (which I spoke upon in a negative way) is a sort of "unhealthy" situation, or where Fi+Ne (and Se polr) can be a problem. It's more a general commentary on the pros and cons of EII nature.

I suspect that you are talking about the initial part of a relationship when you "get the ball rolling." But even then, if I'm interested enough, I will do it. If someone is too forward though, I'll let them do it.

Sure.
And for what it's worth, people like Ritella are very 'forward' for EIIs, and engaging. And the guys are also that way, more so.

I'll get back to the other things later and meatburger's post. Right now I'm tired. But really, I think the issue in all of this is a problem with attachment. Learning how to detach myself from things/people/situations, and being confident in letting things happen naturally.

I can see that being a substantial part of things.

[UDP]

I don't understand what you mean. The first part I see true for any person, in that they try to apply their way of thinking to everything. The second parts sounds subjective, so I don't know what to make of it. Ironically, it seems like an Fi argument.

The whole nature of my post is commenting on what's happening. What I mean there is that how some EIIs interpret things is like "trying to use a meterstick to measure millimeters", that is, their mechanism for understanding things like that are slow and clunky, like a huge galleon in the ocean trying to turn around. This is even much more so if it is directed AT the EII in particular - I think they are slightly better at dealing with it, outside of themselves. I'm not sure if that helps you any, as I'm not sure what you don't understand about it/what I said there.



I'm not sure if this will help or not, but here's what I said to Minde, concerning my post...

minde: I might reply to your post
minde: there are some things that I... don't quite completely agree with
R: I'm not surprised
R: It's the type of post that I don't think people will react well too, really.
R: "based on past results", you could say.
minde: what do you expect people to react badly to?
R: Because of the way I say things.
R: And the overall "negative' nature of my post
R: it seems to strike a certain chord of "well things really aren't that way and here's why"
minde: did you read Sereno's response?
R: Just now
R: His response is fine
R: what I'm addressing are some very mechanical things.
R: A lot of what I spoke about there are things that I would see as somewhat unpalatable to EIIs
minde: why do you think that would be?
R: I think it is much easier for an EII to explain how it's not quite right that things happen that way
R: rather than
R: looking at flaws in the mechanics of what's going on.
R: Why would that be?
R: because it puts responsibility on them that they don't like, for one thing.
R: Or that it's addressed in a way that is unappealing.
R: it's too 'harsh'.
R: Sereno ended up by saying that he thinks it's related to attachment
R: and yes, that is kind of what's happening
R: but
R: I'm explaining the nature of the 'attachment feeling'
R: and doing it in a way that doesn't sound particularly how Fi sees itself, imo.
R: It's a post that goes against the grain.
minde: was that intentional on your part?
R: My intention was to present things in as uncontrived a manner as possible. So while I wasn't trying to unnerve EIIs, or you, --- nor was I being bitey or upset or bitter
R: I wasn't trying to make you happy or feel good about how you operate, either.
R: I was calling it straight.
R: what I actually saw going on in various situations.
R: And especially because I commented on a lot of 'negative aspects', it's more likely to be unappealing.
R: But I am not interested in being appealing to you or other EIIs, nor am I trying to create annoyance.
R: I could do the same thing for how "I" or "LSEs" may approach something, and I could also find it unnerving because what I would say goes against the nature of what I'm really trying to do and how I view myself and my intentions.
R: but it would nonetheless be one take on things.
R: do you think if I posted our aim conversation, it would help people understand what i wrote more so?
...
R: why [does it bother you?]
minde: perhaps it's because it's like you're trying to change things that don't really need to be changed, either because it's fine the way it its or because it doesn't exist in the first place
R: Not at all
R: I'm not trying to change anything
R: I said that I appreciate EIIs being how they are
R: just that sometimes
R: what they do is somewhat ineffective.
R: I don't seek to change anything.
minde: then why are you bringing it up?
minde: or complaining about it?
R: The point was commenting on and giving a raw look at what is happening, not me suggesting what people should do to 'correct the problem'. I give advice on how to deal with it, (having other people to give input), but I don't see it as something 'to be corrected'
R: bringing what up?
[19:20] luineminde: any of it
R: as I said:
R: General commentary so far:
(it may not be directly related to the thread, but inspired by it)
(it includes some realism and critique, so be warned)

minde: "realism" heh
R: I wanted to give a sort of
R: 'what's really happening' kind of take.
R: And a lot of what I said were negative aspects.
minde: As Sereno said, a lot of what you're saying is subjective
R: How would you talk about it objectively?
minde: I'm not sure it's possible to be truly objective
R: I don't see my subjectivity as a problem in what I'm trying to do here.

... I'm not trying to be truly objective or ascribe something that all EIIs should do or not do. It's more a collection of experiences I've had with various EIIs over the years and some of what is actually going on in those situations. As I said, a lot of what I wrote is commenting about some 'negative things'. It is not a wholey objective or all inclusive description of how EIIs work, and that was never my intention. Hopefully that lends to some understanding of what I wrote.

[meatburger]

I put a lot of importance in how I'm treated. If I were to list all of the problems I've had with friends, they would all come down to this. I'm very easy going and I joke around all the time, but when I'm treated in a way that I don't expect to be treated, it turns me off. This definitely puts a strain sometimes in the "go with the flow"/"let it go" factor of a relationship.

On the other hand there are some people I've known who don't expect things, and are of the "I'll take what I can get" mentality, that sometimes end up abused without them being aware of it, and seem to not really care about it. Of course, what I consider potentially disrespectful might just be "ok" with someone else. (I do have high standards ). For example, I had a friend tell me that "if I write to someone asking for help and they don't get back to me, I'm ok with it because I can't expect them to leave what their doing to write back." I see the honorable factor in thinking this way, but it just doesn't compute for me that if a friend asks for genuine help they do not respond

This is definately the post of an EII. My EII friend has said exactly the same things to me in the past. I also expect quite a lot from people. Especially from people who are in the fringes of being my friend or not. It seems like my core group of friends barely ever annoy me or make a huge mistake. They have over time, reached the highest eschelon of people i care about and i love them and forgive them all unconditionally. I am not sure if i picked a great group of people, or if i taught them exactly how to deal with me. I think its probablly a little bit of both.

Ive moved out recently and there are a new group of people im friends with. I admit they actually all piss me off quite a lot. The ESTj is too rude and always forgets to invite me out, the INFj always calls me "bitch" which is highly annoying to me, and the ISTp is just not quite there emotionally with the things he says in conversation and also in his actions. So i will not deny i do have high expectations. I hide them fairly well but they annoy me.

Still, i do not expect anyone to help me. I take full responsibility for my life. I am also very aware of jumping to conclusions. I am back in my home town, and a day or so ago an INFj friend smsed me out of the blue. I replied back and also said that i am back in town and that we should catch up and i told him the days which i am free. I haven't heard from him for 3 days now and i wont end up seeing him. I know what hes thinking. He is angry that i didn't tell him i was back. This is somewhat unfounded as i was probablly going to sms him that very same day (honest!!). Still, because i know him and whats probablly going through his mind i am not that angry that he hasn't replied to me lol.