Enneagram Type: 4w3 vs 4w5 wing differences

[MellowMarcello]

Both 4s are elitist and proud of being such because they have special insight into people and things that the "common man" doesn't...and so aren't disgustingly ordinary like they are.

4w3 is called the "aristocrat" by riso and hudson and due to the w3 are better at masking their inferiority complex.

4w5 is more like a "stigmata 4"...more of a mythologizing of their personal tragedy.

[aestrivex]

Both 4s are elitist and proud of being such because they have special insight into people and things that the "common man" doesn't...and so aren't disgustingly ordinary like they are.

4w3 is called the "aristocrat" by riso and hudson and due to the w3 are better at masking their inferiority complex.

4w5 is more like a "stigmata 4"...more of a mythologizing of their personal tragedy.

no, you idiot: 4w3s are basically like 5w6 sp/sx; the problem solver.

4w5s, by contrast, are basically like 5w6 sp/sx.

[pluie]

ok, i'm pretty sure i'm a 4w3, but lately i've been really brushing up on my 5 wing i think... reading all sorts of shit, trying to learn more about my history and becoming self-educated and what-not. i've considered that maybe i just don't have a dominant wing... or perhaps i'm just developing.

but anyway, the differences i have seen... are 1) that, yes, in comparison to my 4w5 wing pal, i am much more outwardly focused... but only in the sense that i care more what people think of me, and care a lot more about the impressions i make on people when interacting with them. also, 2) i think i'm a lot more idealistic... he seems to really take things the way they are... which i can't really stand lol. i even thought he might be 5w4, but i think that he isn't because even though he takes somewhat of a cynical and logical perspective on life, he still is... quite a dreamer like myself. in this i mean, that even though we come to some sort of "philosophical" conclusions about life, and even though we've been a very depressive, analytical, detached road in our lives... (a phase so to speak)... we still choose to believe in things that dont logically make sense. we're still both passionately inclined, and like to imagine the wondrous things in life are truly real... all the time... and that they can't be taken apart or broken down in to meaningless bits of reason. so in this way, i'm sure we're both 4s. but... i have much more trouble accepting the "truths" that he does.

For example, (not to bring up another topic...but...) he thinks the idea of believing in a god is extremely extremely foolish, and delusional, and wrong... degrading to yourself i suppose. i have my own views on that.. (which i won't get into here..) and am not so.. "black or white" on the issue. i choose to be more open-minded in that area. i also enjoy studying things that are not really proven... the unreal...the strange, the fantastical... and instead of looking at them cynically and objectively and logically... i embrace them with high hopes. these things i talk of are basically anything metaphysical or fantastical.

he sort of... laughs at these things. he distracts him self with video games, and puzzle games...while i love puzzle games and mind games as well, i don't have nearly as much patience for them. i'd much rather call an old friend up, or get to know a guy and see if he's flirt-worthy. i'd much rather go out and party or something... or just go have fun.

so, overall... he's basically more practical and sort of...subjective than i. he just accepts ideas such as human beings just in truth being cold hard robotic stones if you "think hard enough about it"... but decides to set this aside in his mind and just... live. me... well... i consider this view, but i still chase high hopes of other philosophical truths... putting pieces to gether... possibly even deluding myself in the process of putting the pieces together of how the world works, and how people think and act and really truly are... i put the pieces together in an idealistic way that makes it so that the way people want things to be... can be rationalized so that it really is the way things are.

my 4w5 pal just takes the facts, takes the logic, takes what he sees as it is, and doesn't stress himself out trying to make the ideals be true in his mind.

i think in a way that is sort of like a 3... because a 3 would be more inclined to make things seem the way they *want* them to be... more idealistically...more emotionally. while a 5 sort of is like the "scientist". of course this isn't exactly what they are, but to me-- it's a good symbol.

i hope that made some sense. just sort of went on and on, trying to clarify what i mean.

[FoxOnStilts]

I think 4w3s are more...I don't want to say volatile because we the connotation, but that's it. They're less stable, more willing to take risks. It's like they have the 4s need for individuality and self-identity, but the three wing gives them a bite; like they have something to prove to the world about themselves.
A 4w5 would be more content doing their own thing, whatever.

<3 4w3. But both the 4w3s I got this impression from were sx, so ymmv

[Gilly]

I think 4w3s are more...I don't want to say volatile because we the connotation, but that's it. They're less stable, more willing to take risks. It's like they have the 4s need for individuality and self-identity, but the three wing gives them a bite; like they have something to prove to the world about themselves.
A 4w5 would be more content doing their own thing, whatever.

I like this description; the thing that carries over from 3 the most in 4w3s is the whole "proving" thing; with the sx and sp ones it tends to manifest in that kind of pedal-to-the-metal intensity way, testing their thresholds for intensity and experience, whereas the social ones poutily puff out their chests...lol. Either way there is a noticeably more refined touch to 4w3s.

4w5s are the Nietzsches of the world. The lone voice in the wild, etc. They are kind of their own islands by default.

Starfall IMO you are 4w3 sp/sx. Nobody admits their 3ness to themselves until they can be embarrassed into doing so

[Codie]

4w5s are the Nietzsches of the world. The lone voice in the wild, etc. They are kind of their own islands by default.

Thats quite right, 4w3's seem to be more "in this world" if that makes sense at all. 4w3's are also more "cultured" usually very into art and music and are more comfortable expressing their pain through art or writing. 4w5's are much more pensive/ philosophical, and may have a less stable sense of identity, more inhibited with self expression.

[glam]

oh, i was the one who started this thread. i still go back and forth between 4w3 and 4w5. i am more sure that i am sp first than i am of my wing.

[Gilly]

Well a lot of 3s are subconsciously reluctant to self-identify as a 3 and openly admit to it because its kind of antithetical to the illusion to do so.

[strrrng]

3 wing could make some sense for starfall. she's always struck me as a bit too attuned, in the, um, 3 way lol; and especially being an sp/sx, 5 wing becomes less likely, in comparison to someone like esper, who despite having a similar low-key refinement, you can tell is still 'somewhere else' generally. 5s also have this weird delicate quality, like the watchtower could crumble; whereas 3s are more overtly vulnerable, but attack with more precision.

not so much being aware of pop culture, but relating to it in a way that suits different aspects of oneself that are kept at a guarded distance because, the stage has to be set right, type of thing.

for reference she reminds me of an Fe-IEI 4w3 sp/sx hostess from my old restaurant; laid-back tension, somewhat insular but not cold, occasional bitchy undertones but maintaining a proper position. and all female 4w3s (esp w/ sx) have the same hauteur lol.

it's energy, but yeah, I don't see the blind indifference most 5/5ws have with social aspects; she stays just hidden enough.


as for glam, I would say 4w3 > 4w5. unsure on instinct; used to think so/sx, and she does feel a bit too light for an so-last. but I hadn't ruled out 9 for some reason.

[strrrng]

What's wrong with 3's? I know shit about the enneagram.

lol they have a prenatal obligation to tell the truth.

it'd be interesting to see how many 3s/3ws grew up around a solid amount of them. similar theme to deltas with betas. socionics is the future.

[Gilly]

Glam definitely has at least a 9 fix, however I can't see either wing working particularly well in terms of representing a primary type's primary feature. 4w3 seems most likely for primary; 4-6-9 is most likely.

She is definitely not so last.