For one, his(******'s) quadral values seem far different then that of an ENTp. And as said before, ENTps rarely are people to advocate this sort of one-sighted narrowness of vision as ****** did. An ENTp would most likely criticize this Fe-Ni founded drive rather then support it. Also, ****** was a very sensitive individual, one that can be characterized by the irrationality that is the ENFj.
Yeah!! What *she* said . . .Originally Posted by MysticSonic
And any self respecting entp wouldn't stick to one dogma for that long, either. We're too interested in checking out all different kinds of dogma and how they interconnect!!
Entp
ILE
Here is my profile on ******: Intelligent compensatory narcissist, possibly antisocial
Possible socionic types in order based on my analysis: ENTp ENFj, or INFp,
Also, Bin Laden, definite ENTp
This above is one definite problem is socionics. One must ask oneself if one is producing a result beneficial to oneself or is one just trying to be “right”
People need to think that some people do things to live wealthy without working.
What do you mean?[/b]
Sorry, the last post is from me. I hadn't logged in!
Arrrghhh. Had forgotten my password! Above 2 posts are mine.
Entp
ILE
I am as sure as I can be that Bin Laden is an ENTp based on V.I. and by watching his movements--he moves like an ENTp. Because socionics is not grounded in anything objective except for observation, then there is room for error. So in another words, even if I am as sure as I can be, I can still be wrong.
I do not think that ENTp’s are evil; in fact I am an ENTp
This is an excerpt from http://www.buildfreedom.com/tl/tl11.shtml by Frederick Mann:
The Bicameral Model of the Mind
1. Pre-conscious; Bicameral stage 1: Automatic visions and voices tell you what to do. You automatically obey the "voices of authority." You think and speak like a slave. Obedience is paramount.
2. Proto-conscious; Bicameral stage 2: Automatic feelings and thoughts tell you what to do. You behave like: (a) A true believer (sometimes a fanatic fighter for a "great cause"); or (b) A helpless wimp (languishing in apathy, sometimes complaining); or (c) A self-righteous preacher (making self "right" and others "wrong"); or (d) A macho rebel (compulsively fighting "the system," "the IRS," "the government"). Being "right" is paramount.
3. Conscious; Conscious stage: You have largely mastered your feelings and emotions. You have the ability to critically examine every concept, every thought, every action. You strive to increase your competence in every aspect of your life. You carefully observe the results you produce, using that as feedback to improve your concepts, thoughts, communications, and actions. You live free and creatively - you are a Freeperson. Producing results is paramount.
“Many people are aware of an automatic, apparently uncontrollable "stream of thoughts" going on in their heads. Sometimes a situation will trigger an automatic thought like "she doesn't love me," followed by automatic feelings and emotions - apparently not under control. When I watch and listen to a TV talk show like "Good Morning America" or "Morton Downey, Jr.," it seems to me that most of the participants, including the host and the specially invited speakers, merely regurgitate their automatic thoughts - their emphasis being on trying to prove self "right" and others "wrong." I call this bicameral stage 2 - the proto-conscious human. In this stage being "right" is paramount.”
No one can say that this is a strict issue of socionics. At one time I was in the 2nd stage until lately I have been working at the third stage. Although I think that socionics may play a role.
Successful criminals, like politicians, often know well how to play “shadow games” with issues and controversies. How hard is that and what is being produced? How hard is it to pork barrel someone else’s hard earned money, only latter on to have the prestige to be mentioned in the news?
Sooo, how does this bicameral mind theory relate to ENTP? Are you saying that Osama and ****** are less evolved somehow than we are:
:wink:
This fits in with the idea that personality is on some kind of continuum. When it comes to psychopaths, I'm more inclined to believe they are in their own category. I mean, there's self centeredness and then there's sadism. Psychologically, there so much that has to go into the acts that these men have committed - much different than your average garden variety ENTP lack of relationship awareness and skills.
Entp
ILE
WHAT!.....It is a well established fact that ENTPs are less evolved than INTJs
WHAT!.....
How?
When I said antisocial, I meant sociopath or psychopath, meaning one without a conscience. I came to the same conclusion in the general discussion “****** ENTp.”
Blaze quoted from:
“This above is one definite problem is socionics. One must ask oneself if one is producing a result beneficial to oneself or is one just trying to be “right” How are you saying one accomplishes this?”
That is where the bicameral model of the mind comes in, at least I think so.
Ah, but there are differences between antisocials, sociopaths, and psychopaths! Antisocials are cunning, manipulative, and exploitative for profit no doubt. If you look closely at diagnostic criteria for Antisocial Personality, the criteria are behavioral and pretty much profile anyone who is incarcerated. Antisocials are impulsive, though. Many have lower intellectual functioning. That's why they get caught and are incarcerated.
But sociopaths and psychopaths are seriously deranged, sadistic, and defy psychological understanding. Often they evade detection by the criminal justice system, because they are highly intelligent and in control of their behavior. That's why you have TV shows and FBI profiles about psychopaths who commit serial crimes.
Just as antisocials cross the line between the worlds of the legal and illegal, psychopaths cross the lines between the worlds of the illegal and profane.
To be honest, though, I don't think there is very good research on criminals in general, much less subtypes of criminals. There's lots of data in the criminal justice system but not true research into the psychological functioning of such minds.
Entp
ILE
ouch, that was mean!
whoa, wait a minute here Pedro the Lion, if that is your real name.2 things:
It was just an intuitive reaction I am often wrong about such things... not enough data.
It is a well established fact that ENTPs are less evolved than INTJs
look, dude, There are some pretty dumb INTj's out there, trust me. I dated one.
as for "evolved" goes... well, what the hell does that even mean? You're creative the micromanagers, the ENTp's are the creative macromanagers. lil' ebb, a lil' flow. What makes the world go round.
you give me a hundred people from the same gene pool and my guess is that you would have several representatives of each type. make sense of that yourself.
I suppose you were kidding, but watch what you're saying, bub. Not nice. :wink:
Re: ouch, that was mean!
whoa, wait a minute here Pedro the Lion, if that is your real name.2 things:
It was just an intuitive reaction I am often wrong about such things... not enough data.
It is a well established fact that ENTPs are less evolved than INTJs
look, dude, There are some pretty dumb INTj's out there, trust me. I dated one.
as for "evolved" goes... well, what the hell does that even mean? You're creative the micromanagers, the ENTp's are the creative macromanagers. lil' ebb, a lil' flow. What makes the world go round.
you give me a hundred people from the same gene pool and my guess is that you would have several representatives of each type. make sense of that yourself.
I suppose you were kidding, but watch what you're saying, bub. Not nice. :wink:
Entp
ILE
You have to prove to me V.I. works before it use it as an arguement for your case, at least with me.
Because they recognize tongue in cheek dry humor??? Just kidding manWHAT!.....It is a well established fact that ENTPs are less evolved than INTJs
WHAT!.....
How?
OK so now that we've exhausted the psychopath category, back to my original question. I'm posting it here because I'm thinking that it will attract other entp's.
Do any other entp's struggle with fourth function? If so what have you done to try to develop in this area? What success have you had? What amount of effort do you find you have to put in? How old are you? Does this get easier as you get older?
I ask because I have been beleagured by fourth function issues, although it has gotten better the last few years. I naturally don't connect on an emotional level with others. It's the last thing on my mind. But I am now convinced that you at least have to make it seem like you are paying attention to this stuff. Guess that sounds pretty . . . uh . . . naive? or maybe silly is the word?
Anyhow, I'd appreciate any comments . . .
Entp
ILE
As an ENTp the fourth function has always been a tricky one for me. I consider myself a nice guy and I always treat people with respect because when you respect others you get respect in return. But this is only during direct and often controlled or forced situations such as school or work. When i have to listen to lengthy emotional narrations i often become annoyed and try to turn the arguments towards the more rational side which most people don't understand and don't want to hear(unless its about MY problems, then i am as irrational as one can get about feelings).
My sense of humor can also unwittingly insult others without my realizing it, or i may, and often do, talk over others without realizing it. Luckily i noticed this when i was younger by watching the facial expressions of others as i was talking. Sometimes i'd hear other people mumble "just shut up..." and that would be a key in that i wasn't doing something right. I now control myself more and realize that everyone should get a word in, although when i give my response its often obvious i really don't care about what the other person is saying(NOT GOOD!!). It often makes me look like i think that i am better than they are but it's never my conscious intention.
I live in a three family house and i always try and avoid encounters with the others because it means i have to smile at them or say hi- to me encounters like that are superficial so i just try and avoid them. It's very agonizing when i have to wave at them or say "good-afternoon" and i often leave it at that and avoid small talk. I probably come across as a very cold person because of this.
I often go long periods of time without calling family members or returning important phone calls. i rarely initiate anything with friends and try to limit my social circle. When i am with family or friends i am always warm and charming and like to joke around but hate physical contact. In the "romantic" relationships i had trouble buying gifts(something i just plane avoid with family) and even more trouble being "playful". I usually go right for the sex and hate foreplay.
but the "constant need for confirmation"? yup, i need it in romantic relationships. I'm sure that is what drove the only girl i ever loved away. the pain that broke-up caused was the most traumatic experience of my life.
watching other ENTp's and how irritating they can sound when they go on rants about their ideas or thoughts has also taught me some valuable lessons. It's always good to keep your mouth shut and let out one really good "nail in the coffin" than to talk over everyone to the point where they don't even want to listen to you anymore.
but if people mention my name they almost always say "he's a nice guy" so im sure im doing something right. but i don't know what they say behind my back. i like to think of it like this "the truth is the last thing you want to know and the last thing that most people are willing to tell you."
it can be tough being an ENTpboo hoo-what a crybaby.
but i'm young, im 22- so i got time to straighten up. I'm a nice guy, i just forget about people alot.
I can relate on the humor issue. And on the "will you shut up already issue." Wow for 22 years old you seem pretty evolved!
I have had a hard time keeping from playing Devil's Advocate. It's like I can always see the other side. But I've found that doing this makes people mad. They take it personally and feel criticized. They don't get the concept of dialectics. Intj's seem to be able to stand up to it, though! I find I can get very stimulating converstions going with intj's, and of course, other entp's.
I'm a nice person too, but in my life at certain points, have been misunderstood by others who don't get it. Sometimes it's a question of being able to rein in Ne, which can be annoying to other people who don't think that way.
3rd function stuff I've had some success with, actually. Getting more sensory based, practicing things like yoga, using the 5 senses for pleasant experiences (aromatherapy etc) and doing these things in an intentional way has been an expansive process.
The socionics theory seems to have good face validity - and can be very helpful in pinpointing specific personal growth indicators!
Customers service is part of my job and one thing my ISFj co-worker just assumes that anyone can do. I work at it almost every day, and I am getting better at it.
You know that in order to be liked, you have to pay attention to the person and maybe find something about the person that you like or something like that. The problem for me is that it takes a lot of effort to do that; yes I can do it, but it takes a lot of conscious thought. Mainly, I just try to impress the person with whatever I know, and sometimes coming across as a genius. I also impress people with any other talents that I might have.
I have found out though, whatever women want is generally socially acceptable. Maybe even visa-versa for women.
(INTJ butting in on ENTP conversation
I was wondering...what are ENTP interests in the sense of role, not in the sense of abilities? Any ENTPs here? I'm specifically wondering about health in the short and distant aspects, ie health as the collection of the sensations of body, and health as an organization(the healthcare system etc), which I guess would cover the role and dual seeking functions....
Okay, how about this:
=subjective ethical relation
1. Developmental stability (psychological definition)
2. Know how not to annoy people, (maybe because this function “likes” people)
3. Tradition-ethical subjective tradition (I call this the fixated side of
People connote those who are different (
) to not be as developmentally stabile. Study shows that attractive people have “average features.” ENTp’s are not average to tradition, though I am not saying that ENTp’s should or not be traditional.
Since I'm young I don't really focus on healthcare all that much, it's just something I haven't had to worry about yet. I'm sure that when I do have to worry about it my lack of experience will knock my third function into action and i'll slug my way through it and make all of the necessary arrangements. I usually need help doing things like this though since I'm so disorganized and things such require organization of time and energy.
As for bodily sensations- i really ignore them. I'm the last person you'll find at that store in the mall that sells the vibrating chair covers and those weird gyrating ball things under vinyl. This more relates to the suggestive function, but in my interpretation it is directly connected with the Role function. the third function uses the fifth to express itself. extraverted sensing, from my observations, attempts to shape the environment for its wants (an ESTp is going to use Se to satisfy the always present desires of Si). Since it is my role function i use Se more for duty. "this needs to be done and there is a logical reason for it" would be my excuse for using Se. Si would be used to guide me through the situation using sensory correlations(this goes with that, that goes with this).
So i really use my role function as an extra tool than anything else. I usually wind up making a fool of myself if i am under constant supervision while using this function. I recall one instance where i was ice skating with some classmates from my school. I fell over alot and did alot of stupid things like grabbing on to people while i was falling(it was my first time, im usually highly coordinated). Afterwards one of the people i was with told me how stupid i looked and said "the cool thing is you didn't care what others thought"- my Se kicked in again and i used it to cover my insecurities "yeah, who cares what other people think" i said. the reality was that i was very embarrassed. this hit my POLR.
In a relative sense I think that I can come off as INTj to ESTp types. My older sister is an ESTp and she notices every little thing off about my wardrobe and tries to correct these faults for me. She took my out one day and bought me new bed-sheets, wrinkle releaser for my clothing, and even gave me little lectures about how i should start getting into different music. she tries to shape my role function and it actually helps. I still find myself neglecting things that are important such as getting new shoes, new clothing, new socks and underwear.
When i was younger i had alot of paranoias about wether or not my clothing stunk or if i had an odor that i was unaware of. a fear of having bad breath also causes me to chew gum alot, especially at work. Is this a common fear of INTj types?
Interesting comments...nah it's not common in me at least.(INTJ)Since I'm young I don't really focus on healthcare all that much, it's just something I haven't had to worry about yet. I'm sure that when I do have to worry about it my lack of experience will knock my third function into action and i'll slug my way through it and make all of the necessary arrangements. I usually need help doing things like this though since I'm so disorganized and things such require organization of time and energy.
As for bodily sensations- i really ignore them. I'm the last person you'll find at that store in the mall that sells the vibrating chair covers and those weird gyrating ball things under vinyl. This more relates to the suggestive function, but in my interpretation it is directly connected with the Role function. the third function uses the fifth to express itself. extraverted sensing, from my observations, attempts to shape the environment for its wants (an ESTp is going to use Se to satisfy the always present desires of Si). Since it is my role function i use Se more for duty. "this needs to be done and there is a logical reason for it" would be my excuse for using Se. Si would be used to guide me through the situation using sensory correlations(this goes with that, that goes with this).
So i really use my role function as an extra tool than anything else. I usually wind up making a fool of myself if i am under constant supervision while using this function. I recall one instance where i was ice skating with some classmates from my school. I fell over alot and did alot of stupid things like grabbing on to people while i was falling(it was my first time, im usually highly coordinated). Afterwards one of the people i was with told me how stupid i looked and said "the cool thing is you didn't care what others thought"- my Se kicked in again and i used it to cover my insecurities "yeah, who cares what other people think" i said. the reality was that i was very embarrassed. this hit my POLR.
In a relative sense I think that I can come off as INTj to ESTp types. My older sister is an ESTp and she notices every little thing off about my wardrobe and tries to correct these faults for me. She took my out one day and bought me new bed-sheets, wrinkle releaser for my clothing, and even gave me little lectures about how i should start getting into different music. she tries to shape my role function and it actually helps. I still find myself neglecting things that are important such as getting new shoes, new clothing, new socks and underwear.
When i was younger i had alot of paranoias about wether or not my clothing stunk or if i had an odor that i was unaware of. a fear of having bad breath also causes me to chew gum alot, especially at work. Is this a common fear of INTj types?
People don't really care about entp's "great ideas" I've noticed, being entp myself. And they don't really care if I'm a genius, either. Actually, it usually intimidates them which sets them against me. They may even try to thwart my objectives. It's been worth it for me to shut up and at least try to think about others and what flatters them. This is difficult to do without being obvious, what with that fourth function
It's interesting, there's another thread here about how do you develop your
Entp
ILE
This might be my personal opinion, but I think that socionics is almost entirely implicit, and not explicit enough.
I will see about defining functions more accurately.
Socionics raises one's consciousness very well, and organizes personality traits in a way which is meaningful, but you are right, it doesn't really say what to do about issues/problems/weaknesses/deficits. I guess it really depends on the situation. For example, at work I might tend to find atype to provide some assistance with tasks that require those skills, rather than trying to undertake it myself. In relationships . . . you try to be aware of your weaknesses, acknowledge them, and compensate for them in some way. As the yogis say, try to minimize your negative effect on the world. I like that one.
From a spiritual point of view, we might say that our weaknesses reflect our humaness. And ask for God's help, presumably.
Entp
ILE
I have noticed INTJs can be highly sensitive to bad breath, and sometimes rather tactless about pointing it out. Well, it thought me a lesson, now I try to take better care. My sister is an ESFJ and she has often chosen clothes for me, but usually such things just do not seem that important to me, I just want something average that will not stand out.
It seems from my experience that for INFJs the POLR would be more about fear of underperforming in their logical faculties, leading to a whole range of most unpleasant psychosomatic ailments, as well as the usual fear of bullying or rough or threatening language, sometimes even extraverted sensing quite literally, too much noise, people, movement etc. I could see Si as my hidden agenda also in the quite literal sense of not willing to risk my life and physical well-being, or frankly as me being rather wussy, I have never felt any real need to respond to dares, for example.
I am not always quite sure about the functions, it may be due to lack of experience in that way of thinking, but it does not always seem easy to tell when I am using any given function, my consciouness does not seem to naturally divide itself into different functions, only to different experiences in different situations that seem to form certain rough patterns, how do others experience this?
Mentioning ENTPs. Is Gwen Stefani one of them?
Just looking at the pictures, I would say that it is possible, but I really do not know enough about her, so it is just a wild guess.
I think that this is pretty much the same for everyone in the sense that "different experiences in different situations that seem to form certain rough patterns", its just that its a different form of pattern for different people. As an ENTp i see the world, and this could be an individual quirk, in hieroglyphics. Symbols fascinate me and i can spend many hours just sitting there fascinated by such things. drawing patterns and seeing some hidden meaning in these patterns. I also make up words- some say this is a sign of schizophrenia, which makes sense, but i also think it is a distinctive quality of extraverted intuition- the ability to develop isomorphisms/metaphors by bonding known concepts. N is like water, T is like the driftwood. An intj has more driftwood, less water, ENTp has more water, less driftwood. you can prob. make a good metaphor for S and F.
The more time i contemplate something, such as socionics, using visual cues and imagination, the stronger the vision appears each time. So i think that life is, as Grof says, made out of condensed experiences. the higher the frequency of a similar experience the stronger the imprint on one's consciousness. I'm assuming that an INFj would spend most of their time developing patterns and associations of emotions and experiences(dostoevsky is the king of this). T and F involve judgements, micromanaging. F just seems to be a different shade than T, the same goes for the P dichotomy only it involves perceiving things, the big picture.
to get to the point- every function, i think, is imagination- just a different shade on some sort of continuum. I think that it has to do somehow with frequency. I dont see the functions as separate entities, i dont think that the human mind is genuinely capable of dividing up their reality like that. I do think that T, and especially Tj types have the best capacity at arranging seemingly tangible things just because the activity in that brain region(s) is highest. Of course we need paper to keep our thought in line because the other functions are always present and act as a constant distraction. I think that T implies that a person just likes developing a very specific schema so they can best arrange things, whereas F involves a similar process but it more has to do with relating things. So the NT types like to create finalized, living rough patterns, whereas the NF types like to make nonfinalized rough patterns. the J and P decide which angled each types look at it from. the E or I just decides what the person denotes as a means, and what a person devotes as an End. for example, an ENFj's means is an INFj's end, and vice versa. the Id of one is the Ego of the other.
i hope i made some sense, im sorry if i didnt.
oh, and Gwen Stefani-
i'd say she's an ISFp. The strongest reason for my assuming that is that i know an ISFp that idolizes her(she wore a red bra over her shirt to school one day in order to be like her). Another reason is that she is always singing about how tough it is to create and how she has to come out with the new "hot track" and how annoyed she is with the pressure of it. just sounds like a typical ISFp. the clothing, too, very ISFp avant gard(sp?)
yeah, she sure is hot
i second that notion :wink:
yeah. I was actually driving a little while ago and i was thinking about how she probably is an extravert. i was like "damn! why did i post that!" but i guess it really doesn't matter.
i've found that my greatest fear in life (yes, above public speaking and death) is extending myself to people i haven't heard from in a long time or don't see/hear from often. does this correlate with ENTp (or any specific type, really) or is it another one of my unique craptacularities?
I have a fear of death and public speaking as well. its more of "i have a fear of making a fool out of myself or being a nobody" I have a problem where i blush very easily. I have no fear of public speaking in itself but fear public speaking because i fear i will blush. and when i blush, i blush because i blush, and because of this i blush some more. in 30 seconds i look like a tomato, sometimes even an eggplant.
Usually i can perform exceptionally so long as i feel i have a mastery of the subject. Sometimes i can even come across as quite charming. in these cases i often feel as though i am a god indoctrinating my ideas into the heads of my insignificant subjects. it is probably a coping mechanism. if this harmony is interrupted, i start to turn red. when this happens my esteem is crushed and i try to find immediate escape
But yes, as an ENTp i tend to cling on to certain people as ideals. I usually keep relationships going through sporadic yet intense alternating periods of contact. a warm hello, a conflict, withdrawl, and then a static period which leads to a repeat in the cycle. Usually this is with girls that i had at one point established an intimate connection with. I often call them up randomly, although the intent has been whirling around in my mind to some extent everyday before then. They are shocked at the randomness of my contacting them, i am shocked that they aren't incredibly happy to be hearing from me. it's just never enough sometimes. I don't know if i want friendship, romance, or what. i dont know if i want to insult them, or insult myself. it almost always causes problems for me. I suppose when it comes to relationships i hold on to the past because its so difficult to establish new and deep connections with weak feeling. i'd say its "emotional dependency"
You know, for some reason, public speaking doesn't bother me as much as it used to. I guess I realized that there was nothing anyone could say to hurt me. But I have noticed that there are plenty of extraverts deathly afraid of it.
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
I just thought of asking the ENTps this question:
Do you find it easier to maintain a conversation with your semi-dual or your look-alike?
Thank you.
I can talk to both very well and I enjoy the company of both as equal. But Female INFps are more fun and ISTp females are little bit too quiet though they are good at writing letters.Do you find it easier to maintain a conversation with your semi-dual or your look-alike?
I find it easy to maintain a conversation with an ISTp or ESTp, because there is less emotion involved and the differences that we would have keep both of us talking.
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