Clearing something up about IPs and EJs

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

A little while ago I said something about how ip-ej clash etc.

However they really don't, because EIE and LSI is part of my quadra, and I really don't clash with them, obviously.

So if you see that written on sites or whatever, it's a big fat lie. Obviously it's not really the raw temperament that makes us conflicts with certain types, but other psychological factors lined up.

Another thing I would like to clear up on Rick's site is that he stupidly assumed that extroverts and introverts always meshed well together (and introverts always clash), in a sweeping, general statement on one of his posts. Yeaaah like I'm really eager to take a picnic with an LSE anytime soon. You just can't make such big vague, general statements like that no matter how pretty they look, no matter how easily they fit in your minuscule, arrogant view of the world.

SLE being my dual and LSE being my conflictor is just one small part of the puzzle, that people act like it's the whole thing. You know what, what does it take to make people understand that your Identity, Activity or even your Semi-Dual could be the best match for you, for non-socionics related reasons as well. Duals are still great, don't get me wrong- but I managed w/o one many times before, and I can easily do it again.

Psychology is important, and certainly interesting in our lives but there are a lot of other factors that people take into consideration when choosing whom to socialize with. Sometimes we want to talk to people just cause they look and smell good. Shallow? I don't think so, 'it's just human nature.'

[Jarno]

Duals are still great, don't get me wrong- but I managed w/o one many times before, and I can easily do it again.

nobody has said that your life sucks without your dual...

on contrary, I've read quite some descriptions which say negative things about dualism. Like the frustration of seeing how your dual responses to other people. You have opposite personality, which is especially usefull when interacting together, not watching your dual interacting with someone else. The second thing that I read somewhere is that you have a need for people with your ego functions, which is something your dual can't supply.

Dual is usually the best romantic relationship, but it's not a necessity for a happy life or something.

[UDP]

I don't know if I believe this, but then again I don't have a clue about what I'm looking for anymore.

it must be difficult to be the wife of two men.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I don't think dual is the best romantic relationship either, I view duality as the most 'comforting' relationship or something. I think it's only possible to enjoy your dual, truly, when they're away.

I view Identity as the best romantic relationship. I view duals as, they cover up your weaknesses in an objective, 'real-world' sense.

But just because somebody is giving me something that is lacking, and is a good psychological 'puzzle piece' to my own, doesn't equate a romantic attraction. Do you even know what romance is? It's simply the feeling of excitement and love, but never actually happening or arriving, it's the general driving force of ALL things in the world. Romance has no substance or thought, it's just like a cloud above us all that makes us keep on moving and trying to endlessly 'get better.'

Romantic love is not the be end of love. It's only the first stage. All is full of love. People like romantic love though because it feels so freeing, and idealistic- like this person is going to fix the world for you. But it's only the beginning.

Ultimately, nobody is really right or wrong with this, as socionics itself isn't an exact science.

[UDP]

Ultimately, nobody is really right or wrong with this, as socionics itself isn't an exact science.

Socionics doesn't say anything about right or wrong.

...but yeah I know what you mean.

[sigma]

I don't think dual is the best romantic relationship either, I view duality as the most 'comforting' relationship or something. I think it's only possible to enjoy your dual, truly, when they're away.

I guess it depends on what you see as a romantic relationship.

in "Character Strengths and Virtues", Peterson and Seligman say something like this:
“love is marked by the sharing of aid, comfort and acceptance.”

comfort and acceptance might be very high in an identity relationship too BUT a dual has the best chance at helping you how you want to be helped.

If you enjoy your dual only while he or she is away... you might be leading a very unaware life.
Paying more attention to the present moment will reveal the true effect of your dual.
Also, it is worth mentioning that paying attention to the present moment is something that can be developed with proper practice, just like a muscle. That practice is meditation.

[Creepy-male]

Also, it is worth mentioning that paying attention to the present moment is something that can be developed with proper practice, just like a muscle. That practice is dualizing with a Senser.

Fixed.

Now you know.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Can we please get off this 'present moment' kick? Tolle just wrote that crap to lure self-conscious people into buying his books.

There has been no scientific, peer-reviewed verifiable evidence that suggests living in the moment is better for everybody. I like 'The Law of Attraction' myself but like anything esoteric, it only works if it speaks to you, subjectively.

I just think what Tolle meant was this: (and it's simple advice and NOT something that one should write a book about) that you shouldn't dwell on depressing things in the past, because what's the point? What happened happened, and dwelling negativity on the past can only be detrimental to your health. But sometimes we have to look backwards in the past, at GOOD things- to find the strength to move forward. Also planning ahead, and being aware of what people are most likely going to say isn't a bad thing at all, and you'll find out- the world runs in a very safe, predictable fashion more than not, and it's not that difficult to get yourself 'caught up' with it.

Living in the moment doesn't work for everybody, I think it's poor advice to give to Ni-egos especially, since our Ni is so easy for us to use, I don't think it really weighs us down/is painful for us to entertain the past and future so easily.

Put it this way. What if, the 'here and now' reality you're currently experiencing is absolute shit? Then you'd want to dissociate yourself a bit for your own self-survival. I guess what we're arguing here, at its base core is 'fighting' or 'flighting.' But each choice is ultimately acceptable, they BOTH keep you alive. Tolle wants people to fight, because of his Se-polr he's confused about what confidence really means. I'm saying (and I give this advice to SLEs all the time) that, sometimes you get away from a predator by fleeing too. By being smart enough to run away, and idealize/imagination the situation so it played out differently.

Only fight if you know you can win. Otherwise you will be crushed by something inherently more powerful. Otherwise, run away- and dream about the past and the future until you get enough psychic energy to try again.

[Jarno]

I don't think dual is the best romantic relationship either, I view duality as the most 'comforting' relationship or something. I think it's only possible to enjoy your dual, truly, when they're away.

I view Identity as the best romantic relationship. I view duals as, they cover up your weaknesses in an objective, 'real-world' sense.

But just because somebody is giving me something that is lacking, and is a good psychological 'puzzle piece' to my own, doesn't equate a romantic attraction. Do you even know what romance is? It's simply the feeling of excitement and love, but never actually happening or arriving, it's the general driving force of ALL things in the world. Romance has no substance or thought, it's just like a cloud above us all that makes us keep on moving and trying to endlessly 'get better.'

Romantic love is not the be end of love. It's only the first stage. All is full of love. People like romantic love though because it feels so freeing, and idealistic- like this person is going to fix the world for you. But it's only the beginning.

Ultimately, nobody is really right or wrong with this, as socionics itself isn't an exact science.

bullshit

[betterthan]

I don't think dual is the best romantic relationship either, I view duality as the most 'comforting' relationship or something. I think it's only possible to enjoy your dual, truly, when they're away.

I view Identity as the best romantic relationship. I view duals as, they cover up your weaknesses in an objective, 'real-world' sense.

But just because somebody is giving me something that is lacking, and is a good psychological 'puzzle piece' to my own, doesn't equate a romantic attraction. Do you even know what romance is? It's simply the feeling of excitement and love, but never actually happening or arriving, it's the general driving force of ALL things in the world. Romance has no substance or thought, it's just like a cloud above us all that makes us keep on moving and trying to endlessly 'get better.'

Romantic love is not the be end of love. It's only the first stage. All is full of love. People like romantic love though because it feels so freeing, and idealistic- like this person is going to fix the world for you. But it's only the beginning.

Ultimately, nobody is really right or wrong with this, as socionics itself isn't an exact science.

Hmm.

Why?

I love my identicals, I utterly adore this male identical that I know, I think he is the most adorable person I have ever met, I just feel so much love for him & I don't even know him that well. I've never felt this way about a dual. It's more just like a raw connection, but no deeper affinity.

Actually I don't know why, to us, the topic matters that much. Why don't we just fill our worlds up with identicals, duals and mirrors and activity partners? Then be with whoever we find ourselves attracted to the most, and if it doesn't work out with that person, move along.

I keep trying to choose partners based on our socionics compatibility, which is rather ridiculous because I don't even want the people in my life that I am most compatible with, I just wish that I did because I look at them as being the most adept at 'fulfilling me' . Gosh, there are so many other things that matter like how interesting a person is for one LOL. (blahblahrandomcrap)

I don't think it's that duality is overrated but more that romantic relationships are. It's the whole illusion that love will save us, but it never does so we delude ourselves, & complain that there is something wrong with duality rather than accepting the hollowness of the whole 'saving love' bullshit.

[sigma]

It's the whole illusion that love will save us, but it never does so we delude ourselves, & complain that there is something wrong with duality rather than accepting the hollowness of the whole 'saving love' bullshit.

Love saves all, however... most of what people label as love is in fact attachment, infatuation and that's a completely different thing.

Here is someone that expresses it better:

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Creepy-male]

I don't know if I believe this, but then again I don't have a clue about what I'm looking for anymore.

[cracka]

I don't know if I believe this, but then again I don't have a clue about what I'm looking for anymore.

+1. Well said.

[calenwen]

So basically you're saying that duality is overrated.

And I agree.

[Creepy-male]

Wow, you poor people.

My dual's pretty fantastic.

Why do your experiences suck then?

[Mattie]

Wow, you poor people.

My dual's pretty fantastic.

Why do your experiences suck then?

I think the main point is that a dual relationship =/= infallible happiness. I can agree with that, but at the same time, I still recognize the higher percentage of chance of harmony with a dual relation.

To me, everyone will have preferences among types based on both their life experience and their type. There have been comments on how some people of one type prefer people of a particular quadra and someone else of the same time prefer another. I think that socionics predicts which relations have a higher chance of succeeding to a person of a particular type, without accounting for personal experience.

To me, an ISTp is one of a few types I would predict that I would have a good chance of harmonizing the easiest/best with, but they are also really hard to even get to that stage. I have a lot of INTps in my life that tend to inflame my annoyance for this habit, that I see at least IxTps have, to just randomly disappear, not really answer their phone or communicate much if at all, and just leave you guessing on what is actually going on with them. It drives me up the wall, because I know there will be this great synchronicity once we get past that, but I haven't been able to. So most of my interests have been in ExTjs, because they are a lot more willing to keep in touch with me and return SOME sort of signal.

With my own insight, I know ISTps are a great match for me and I'd love to really get to know one and date one. But because of out initial differences, sometimes the effort seems to be in vain. But I don't feel like my life is robbed of anything because socionics says that my dual is my best relation, I've had better times in my life with other types that I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything. And hopefully others don't think that duals are all that is there for them.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[redbaron]

but I promise you, a lot of things you can't even imagine. There is a huge amount of day-to-day details which count but almost nobody pay enough attention to recall them.

I agree with this. I have never been in a serious romantic relationship with my dual, however, having become good friends with one recently I can say that there are a lot of things that happen on a day-to-day basis that are smoothed over easily with one's dual that would become much bigger issues with another type. I've seen this first hand. With your dual there's this sigh of relief that you're not misunderstood (or if you are, it's EASILY cleared up) and that never become a big deal and thus are quickly forgotten. it's really, really nice.

[Creepy-male]

Afaik you're not in a dual relationship, are you? If not, I would tell you they make the same mistake as you do: they have no idea how it is to be and live with your dual . Although, you may have perceived a glimpse of how things could be because you anticipate based on Socionics logical explanations, but I promise you, a lot of things you can't even imagine. There is a huge amount of day-to-day details which count but almost nobody pay enough attention to recall them.

Ah.

No, I'm not in a romantic relationship.

But we're still BFFFL. Sorry for being misleading~

But if daily contact is this awesome, what about living together could change it? I remain optimistic.

[Mattie]

look.to.the.sky: I agree with you, yet compared to you (and some other IEEs) I am bothered by the waste of time and emotional effort in a failed relationship, the interesting and valuable experience itself is of little concern to me.

I know I'm a little strange for an ENFp at times, but I think it has to do with my particular life experiences rather than something to do with type. But, in actuality, I have to agree with you with being bothered with emotional efforts in failed relationships, I am actually known to my friends to be someone who ultimately turns down a lot of people because I predict that it isn't going to work out. So in a sense, I only commit to something I'm certain for the time I wouldn't mind being committed to, so in essence, I've been in very few relationships with a large amount of opportunity.

Concerning Astrology vs Socionics, though I did entertain Astrology for a while, Socionics is nothing like Astrology. Astrology is a predetermination that you do not assign to yourself off of your own observable traits, an already established system bestows traits onto you (supposedly). "Self-typing" and changing your sign can't happen in Astrology, and I feel more comfortable saying that Socionics is built on more observable data, though at the same time, said data comes through a subjective filter.

Personally, I think you should read up on Socionics as much as it interests you, then take away from it what you do find practical. If relations seem like an unfitting system, you still have a good organization on functions. For me, I've always been good at relationship advice and insight on other people, but now I have an "objective" set of terms to help explain my intuitions to someone else instead of "I just have this vibe."

Honestly, every relation can be better or worse than it's given credit here. My best friend is an ENTp, and I can't imagine a better friendship, because I don't need one. Just because of Socionics, no one should be like "I need friends in my quadra." and dump their current situation. I do, however, feel like I need more people from my quadra in my life because, in theory, I will feel more comfort coming from healthy relationships with these types, and I can see that. I used to have a lot of Gammas in my life, and now I have a lot of Alphas, and every once in a while I feel like I need people who just "get" me. But at the same time, I enjoy these people, regardless of type, I just can now explain it if there's dissatisfaction with my social group (for example).