Quote Originally Posted by Blaze
"Logic is great stuff. We like it. We still like it. It is not by chance we were given the power to reason, to examine the evidence of our sense, and to draw conclusions.
That's an assumption, even if it were not by chance because God created it, wouldn't God's existence also have been chance? but because of the nature of the concept of God you can apply whatever rules you like, it's completely speculative yet nobody seems to be bothered by this.

That is one of man's magnificent attributes. We agnostically inclined would not feel satisfied with a proposal which does not lend itself to reasonable approach and interpretation. Hence we are at pains to tell why we think our present faith is reasonable, why we think it more sane and logical to believe than not to believe, why we say our former thinking was soft and mushy when we threw up our hands in doubt and said, "We don't know."
Some people are more prone to belief than others, it can actually be traced back to the individuals genetic make-up, upbringing and the resulting neurophysiology, brain scans have been conducted to figure out what physiological differences cause one person to believe and another not to.

Evolution has crafted us as a species of believers, it suites a social purpose and many feel incomplete without that belief in a higher being. I am reminded of Jung curing a young woman of her problems and worries when he simply asked her to believe in God, some people are hardwired.

When we became alcoholics, crushed by a self-imposed crises we could not postpone or evade, we had to fearlessly face the proposition that either God is everything or else He is nothing. God either is or He isn't. What was our choice to be?
Nobody has to face the question that God is everything or nothing, especially when they feel (as I do) that they have insufficient information to make that judgement. Why does a judgement have to made? i'll let you know my answer when I am dead, it might still be "I do not know".

Arrived at this point, we were squarely confronted with the question of faith. We couldn't duck the issue. Some of us had already walked far over the Bridge of Reason toward the desired shore of faith. The outlines and the promise of the New Land had brought lustre to tired eyes and fresh courage to flagging spirits. Friendly hands had stretched out in welcome. We were grateful that Reason had brought us so far. But somehow, we couldn't quite step ashore. Perhaps we had been leaning too heavily on reason that last mile and we did not like to lose our support.
Again the idea that we MUST answer the question as YES or No arises, why?

That was natural, but let us think a little more closely. Without knowing it, had we not been brought to where we stood by a certain kind of faith? For did we not believe in our own reasoning? did we not have confidence in our ability to think? What was that but a sort of faith? Yes, we had been faithful, abjectly faithful to the God of Reason. So, in one way or another, we discovered that faith had been involved all the time!
Only fools would have faith in thier own reason, I do not know this God of reason they speak of, unless they equate God and existence? if thier definition of God is simply existence then I am a believer... I know that something existes.

We found, too, that we had been worshippers. What a state of mental goose-flesh that used to bring on! Had we not variously worshipped people, sentiment, things, money, and ourselves? And then, with a better motive, had we not worshipfully beheld the sunset, the sea, or a flower? Who of us had not loved something or somebody? How much did these feelings, these loves, these worships, have to do with pure reason? Little or nothing, we saw at last. Were not these things the tissue out of which our lives were constructed? Did not these feelings, after all, determine the course of our existence? It was impossible to say we had no capacity for faith, or love, or worship. In one form or another we had been living by faith and little else.
Feelings and emotions are just evolved biological mechanisms that aid us in our lives, whether it be to steer us from dange, fight an enemy or just manipulate the social game.

They do not prove anything, they simply give egotistical reasons as to why we should behave in a perticular way.

Imagine life without faith! Were nothing left but pure reason, it wouldn't be life. But we believed in life of course we did. We could not prove life in the sense that you can prove a straight line is the shortest distance between two points, yet, there it was. Could we still say the whole thing was nothing but a mass of electrons, created out of nothing, meaning nothing, whirling on to a destiny of nothingness? Or course we couldn't. The electrons themselves seemed more intelligent than that. At least, so the chemist said.
This paragrath says nothing useful other than "I believe and have not real argumento other than because I want to".

Hence, we saw that reason isn't everything. Neither is reason, as most of us use it, entirely dependable, thought it emanate from our best minds. What about people who proved that man could never fly? Yet we had been seeing another kind of flight, a spiritual liberation from this world, people who rose above their problems. They said God made these things possible, and we only smiled. We had seen spiritual release, but liked to tell ourselves it wasn't true.
What about people who "proved man couldn't fly? what on earth is tha supposed to mean? it doesn't mean anything in this context, the comparison being drawn is a different scenario.

Actually we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and child, is the fundamental idea of God. It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there. For faith in a Power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself.
This simply applies meaning where ther is none, never mind the assumptions it makes. Why is it important to worship anything? and the "facts" are hardly facts, if for no other reason than what Pedro said a few posts ago.

We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend. Sometimes we had to search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us.
THe great reality deep down within us? they mean feelings, what a reliable and great thing feelings are *rollseyes*

We can only clear the ground a bit. If our testimony helps sweep away prejudice, enables you to think honestly, encourages you to search diligently within yourself, then, if you wish, you can join us on the Broad Highway. With this attitude you cannot fail. the consciousness of your belief is sure to come to you.
erm.. no.

In this book you will read the experience of a man who thought he was an atheist. His story is so interesting that some of it should be told now. His change of heart was dramatic, convincing, and moving. Our friend was a minister's son. He attended church school, where he became rebellious at what he thought an overdose of religious education. For years thereafter he was dogged by trouble and frustration. Business failure, insanity, fatal illness, suicide these calamities in his immediate family embittered and depressed him. Post-war disillusionment, ever more serious alcoholism, impending mental and physical collapse, brought him to the point to self-destruction.
Well if it worked for him great, he is free to believe as he wishes. The fact that he was certain in his Athiesm speakes volumes. But an example of one man's life means nothing.

One night, when confined in a hospital, he was approached by an alcoholic who had known a spiritual experience. Our friend's gorge rose as he bitterly cried out: "If there is a God, He certainly hasn't done anything for me!" But later, alone in his room, he asked himself this question: "Is it possible that all the religious people I have known are wrong?" While pondering the answer he felt as though he lived in hell. Then, like a thunderbolt, a great thought came. It crowded out all else:

"Who are you to say there is no God?"
Yes, the man with who had consumed too much of a mind altering drug was a great source of "truth"...lol.

Anyway, again this is full of absolutes akin to any devout religious person. He is not in a position to say there is no God, but this does not mean that he is in a postiton to say there is one either.

This man recounts that he tumbled out of bed to his knees. In a few seconds he was overwhelmed by a conviction of the Presence of God. It poured over and through him with the certainty and majesty of a great tide at flood. The barriers he had built through the years were swept away. He stood in the Presence of Infinite Power and Love. He had stepped from bridge to shore. For the first time, he lived in conscious companionship with his Creator.
Why do I not experience this, why does God care if I believe or not? why does he pick special people? why does God not just reveal him/herself?

Thus was our friend's cornerstone fixed in place. No later vicissitude has shaken it. His alcoholic problem was taken away. That very night, years ago, it disappeared. Save for a few brief moments of temptation the though of drink has never returned; and at such times a great revulsion has risen up in him. Seemingly he could not drink even if he would. God had restored his sanity.
If he needed God to cure his alcoholism then so be it, it does not mean anything other than that he needed a belief in a higher power to make him happy... good for him.

What is this but a miracle of healing? Yet its elements are simple. Circumstances made him willing to believe. He humbly offered himself to his Maker then he knew.
Again, whatever makes him happy, I am sure every successful surgical operation is a miracle *rolleyes*

Even so has God restored us all to our right minds. To this man, the revelation was sudden. Some of us grow into it more slowly. But He has come to all who have honestly sought Him.

When we drew near to Him He disclosed Himself to us!"
So the almighty God, who created me wishes me to believe? it shoudn't be hard, he is all-powerful after all.


I am aware that my own responses are open to scrutiny, I know that we could go down the subjective reality, nothing provable route... but that, the above responses and a heel of a lot more are why I am undecided on the question of God, I very much doubt I will ever been satisfied enough to answer in my life time.