Yeah, 4 years for someone to open up to you is way too long. But you shouldn't have waited 4 years to realize that ..... I know it's hard and I sound like a jerk, but i'll say it anyhow.
Yeah, 4 years for someone to open up to you is way too long. But you shouldn't have waited 4 years to realize that ..... I know it's hard and I sound like a jerk, but i'll say it anyhow.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
BP I know where you are coming from dude. For many of the same reason you stated too. The difference is I don't let those things phase me.
Kam and Ryu are right. You have to be yourself, instead of acting differently because you are obessed with her. When you are yourself, that is when you can easily figure out what want. Then you are not wasting four years deciding what to do.
Sounds to me your attitude is the problem. I am certain she picked up on it. You attitude is you think she owes you to be open with you, and that she should respect and love you, but you feel slighted because you cannot accept that everything did not go how you thought it out. And it is causing you to complain about it to her. I don't know how long you been like this with her, though the longer you keep this up the less she will respect you and start to resent you.
Understand what she is telling you. She is basically saying she was waiting for you to make a move. You never did, so she thought you were not interested. Now you're getting on her case, four years later, cause some other guy back when had the nuts to do what you couldn't. All of sudden it looks like you can't make up your mind. That is confusing to her. She can't open up to you because she can't trust you. She can't trust you because you are not being yourself around her. Basically, she does not know what your true intentions are because you are giving mixed signals. Let's add that many women have to deal with guys on a daily basis that have poor intentions. In a nutshell, she is not going to depend on you to be there for her, since you have showed you can't make up your mind.
But somehow, through it all, you have reasoned she has xray vision. Somehow she is aware of your problems with your lack intimacy and relationship experience. As if she is looking down on those things. Which is not true because she just told you to stop worrying and enjoy yourself. How could she know you have those problems unless you make an issue of it to her, like you are doing to us now?
I'd say learn to stop being your own worse enemy.
I'm just sayin.
ILE
Two people can be awesome and just not really be right for each other, no matter what they've got going for them. Sometimes things don't work out. We've all got our problems and hangups, sure. I think Kam's got it right in that you shouldn't feel like you have to be anyone other than who you are. People go through life letting so very little of what goes on inside really show to the world. It's easy to be frightened about sharing how you feel, that's understandable, but knowing what holds you back is the first step to pushing past that when it's important, you know?
I agree with most of what you said, that's pretty good advice. To be clear though, this relationship wasn't one of those situations where I pursued and was obsessed for 4 years, in fact I ignored her a lot longer than I was attracted to her and she suffered unrequited affection as long as I did. There are several elements to the relationship that I didn't get into, including a lot of unhealthy behaviors of hers, a mutual friend who turned the situation into a threesome most of the time, and me generally being an asshole not noticing her soon. By no means do I have her on a pedestal, but her good qualities did outweigh her bad.Originally Posted by ScanDave
This particular relationship is shot and unrecoverable, and I've moved on, but she has brought up an issue in my own life.
This sort of advice is completely wrong, however. Turn off the lifetime channel. When someone has a problem of not taking action (in my case not establishing intimacy), the solution is not to "be myself". Being myself is to be the same guy who hasn't been able to move past the surface in ANY of my romantic relationships.
Assuming that the whole world is wrong and you just need to "be yourself" is not a legitimate solution. I have a problem with my interaction with the world, and the only way to fix that is to change the one variable I control: me. I've moved on from this particular girl, but her comments have given me enough of a kick in the balls to piss me off and want to prove that I can establish a healthy relationship. That requires action on my part, which is a change from the usual inaction that would occur if I were "being myself".
ILE-Ti
6w7 sx/sp (low level of confidence)
+1
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
me too.
i'm bitter about duality atm, though i'm just bitter in general atm so whatever.
Totally, "just be yourself" is a really crappy relationship advice, one of the worst. 100% of my relationship problems are caused because "I'm just being myself" and don't know how to change.
...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.
INTp
But do you think that you NEED TO change? I go with the thought that I shouldn't change because of social norms and standards or someone else's criteria or expectations, but indeed just "be myself" and try/insist to stand firmly for who I am, while developing my full capacity and potential as a human being. And perhaps somewhat stubbornly and idealistically, I also believe that there is someone out there that can really understand and accept me for how I am, without needing me to change, or to do any FUNDAMENTAL changes. So yeah, I'm not saying I'm perfect, I'm quite defective actually, but I am who I am. What you see is what you get, take it or leave it.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
This is exactly how I view it. I find it incorrect that someone would think they should fundementally change how they act in order to find a partner. You are you, and barring you being a pedophile or other deviant, you don't need to change a thing. At least that is my idealistic spin on it.
D-SEI9w1
This is me and my dual being scientific together
Yeah, absolutely. And in addition to what I said; No one should try to get me to change, because I won't. It's like... guarantied. I can only pretend, but that's not the way I roll.This is exactly how I view it. I find it incorrect that someone would think they should fundementally change how they act in order to find a partner. You are you, and barring you being a pedophile or other deviant, you don't need to change a thing. At least that is my idealistic spin on it.
@ephemeros: try using a better machine translator. but first, learn to talk.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Yes, I think the same way. And I don't want to change. But that also results in utter failure relationship-wise.
...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.
INTp
Most of my relationships are (or usually end up as) total failures, too. Hell, I think my whole life is a fucking failure. And I know that there's very little you'll NOT do to improve your situation. And if you're like me, you'll always end up blaming yourself for every single failure and disappointment in your life, and you'll ask yourself why is life [mis]treating you so badly. And as much as this hurts, the only way to survive and keep on movin' is to live with your shame. As much as I, and others have tried, I've realized that CHANGE doesn't really happen. People have tried to change me, to reshape and adjust me to their perceptions of how I 'should be', and I've even tried to comply in certain instances, but all these efforts have always been in vain. This approach only results in - me getting more (and more) resistant, and the build-up of psycho-emotional tension that eventually results in wrong decisions and even more mistakes on my part.
Last edited by Park; 03-23-2009 at 04:40 AM.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Ah, must be a Gamma thing then.
"Be yourself" could be interpreted as "don't try."
That tends to result in failure, or at least non-success.
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
Type complacency
Anyone finding socionics to be slightly counter-productive in the relationship arena. The ESE caregiver thing has led me to be very passive because of this strange expectation that they are in charge of the social arena and I should just go along for the ride. Had I not read any of this though, ESE would probably not have been the type I would intuitively have gone after, though I probably would have ended up with one purely from compatibility. It just seems like I have bought into my role as an LII to a relatively unhealthy level. A bit ofnow and again, though uncomfortable and in my opinion unecessary may be just what is needed for full type realisation. This could only apply to me though, but I was curious if anyone else has gone through the same.
LII?
Well, bucko (can I call you that?
Well, at least, in theory. Was that what you were describing?
(Also, I've found from personal experience, that I use my PoLR sometimes. The problem is that I can't switch it off again in a hurry, and that's what leads to the reactionary policy of "D:", because usually it just winds up with my whinging anxiously about The Uncertain Future. Similarly with LIIs, is it like the ESE pushes you to jump up off your ass and move? This possibly explains why SLIs seem so dead to me--not only are they uncomfortable with Fe impulses, but the Se prods bounce off them.)
Alrighty. But being yourself includes being comfortable with who you are. You say your issue is establishing intimacy. Part of being intimate with others means exposing yourself to those you wish to be intimate with. Anytime you put yourself out there, you put your being at risk to be judged. That means you will get kicked in the balls from time to time. It also means you will find great people to share yourself with from time to time.
I do not think you have problems establishing intimacy. The issue is you are picking on people to reciprocate establishing intimancy with you, who wish not to establish intimancy with you at that moment. You seem to have no problem coming on this forum and talking about yourself to complete strangers. It cannot be expected to gain intimancy over night, however. But look at what we have in this thread; you have people listening to you and giving you feed back and sharing their own experiences on a personal matter. That's a start.
That is until you start thinking back to those it never worked on. Then you throw up this wall by getting caught up in "OMG I suck at peoples!" The wall is blocking you from the people who wish to reciprocate establishing intimancy with you. The other side of the coin is maybe the people you have around only want surface level with you. If that is the case, you are doing nothing wrong. It's them, not you.
So you can stop focusing on people who don't give a damn about you if you like. Just roll with the cool ones. Whatever happens, happens.
ILE
Removed at User Request
I don't think it necessarily has to do with being comfortable with yourself. There's a possibility, but there are other possibilities as well. I think that people often jump to the "it's all about loving yourself" mentality when that's not always the case. I know that in my case my issue with intimacy is that it makes me feel uncomfortable because I can't simply mastermind my way to a solution if anything should happen and that makes me feel extremely vulnerable. I'm used to being able to channel my life in whatever direction I need, and one-on-one relationships with people are not something I can do that with.
That's just me though *shrugs*
ILE
7w8 so/sp
Very busy with work. Only kind of around.
Removed at User Request
It refers to all aspects of my life.
ILE
7w8 so/sp
Very busy with work. Only kind of around.
I think this applies to all Yielding types, although it's often misattributed tovs.
On a more hopeful note, that pre-existing intimacy is something that can be worked toward; it doesn't have to be accidental.
EDIT: Wikisocion's description of yielding/obstinate is useless. I've found, in my limited observations (consisting of Gulanzon, Khola and myself), that the difference between "strong emotions" and "detailed emotions" is the easiest to identify with.
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
Oh this is so true. I have a tendency to behave like this due to nerves around my current love interest. It does seem to get better with time I suppose.
And for all of you Alpha NTs out there worrying, don't. Seriously, this guy is still biding his time with me, and we're still not even official, even though things have been going on for about 9-10 months now. You probably all think I'm nuts for hanging around but I think he's worth it. I can see that there's more beneath the surface and as much as it hurts at times, I'm still happy to go slow and wait for him to be more comfortable at this point, I'm just slowly letting him in and not forcing him to give me answers. I'm always really interested when he has something personal to say, but I hate seeing him feeling as if he's being forced out of his emotional shell. I find he will tell me what I want to know most of the time, but it's almost as if it wounds him to have emotional subjects and topics forced out, and he becomes resentful. I'm happy for him to blossom out of it in his own time - he's much more comfortable that way.
So here I am still not even officially in a relationship with him and he is still the person I have the most time for in this world. I'm sure you will all eventually find a nice Alpha SF to do the same. We have weak points too you know, you do have a lot to give as well.
To be honest, the only reasons that I want to have some sense of official relationship status with this guy at this point is so the I can be more publically affectionate and be able to do nice things for him, like little surprise gifts and dates/one-on-one time just exploring things further away from other people. You know - that shared learning of adventures, places, fun things to do...
I hope this gives you people a bit more hope....?
Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .
Removed at User Request
This made me feel like I was reading a machine translation from Russian
"meant no"->"didn't mean"
That is a more hopeful message, although I still need to translate it from SEI to ESE.
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
Removed at User Request
The advice only works if someone is not being themself, and it's the reason for their failure. If the person is already being themself, it's a useless and dumb advice to give. And based on BP's answer, that was the case.
...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.
INTp
Make some loud noises!!This made me feel like I was reading a machine translation from Russian
"meant no"->"didn't mean"
That is a more hopeful message, although I still need to translate it from SEI to ESE.
Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .
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