Welp, I'm incapable of intimacy

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Khola aka Bee]

You have to be yourself, instead of acting differently because you are obsessed with her. When you are yourself, that is when you can easily figure out what you want.

Oh this is so true. I have a tendency to behave like this due to nerves around my current love interest. It does seem to get better with time I suppose.

And for all of you Alpha NTs out there worrying, don't. Seriously, this guy is still biding his time with me, and we're still not even official, even though things have been going on for about 9-10 months now. You probably all think I'm nuts for hanging around but I think he's worth it. I can see that there's more beneath the surface and as much as it hurts at times, I'm still happy to go slow and wait for him to be more comfortable at this point, I'm just slowly letting him in and not forcing him to give me answers. I'm always really interested when he has something personal to say, but I hate seeing him feeling as if he's being forced out of his emotional shell. I find he will tell me what I want to know most of the time, but it's almost as if it wounds him to have emotional subjects and topics forced out, and he becomes resentful. I'm happy for him to blossom out of it in his own time - he's much more comfortable that way.

So here I am still not even officially in a relationship with him and he is still the person I have the most time for in this world. I'm sure you will all eventually find a nice Alpha SF to do the same. We have weak points too you know, you do have a lot to give as well.

To be honest, the only reasons that I want to have some sense of official relationship status with this guy at this point is so the I can be more publically affectionate and be able to do nice things for him, like little surprise gifts and dates/one-on-one time just exploring things further away from other people. You know - that shared learning of adventures, places, fun things to do...

I hope this gives you people a bit more hope....?

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Warlord]

This sort of advice is completely wrong, however. Turn off the lifetime channel. When someone has a problem of not taking action (in my case not establishing intimacy), the solution is not to "be myself". Being myself is to be the same guy who hasn't been able to move past the surface in ANY of my romantic relationships.

Totally, "just be yourself" is a really crappy relationship advice, one of the worst. 100% of my relationship problems are caused because "I'm just being myself" and don't know how to change.

[Brilliand]

when i said there is no problem i meant no that this thread should not exist

This made me feel like I was reading a machine translation from Russian

"meant no"->"didn't mean"

Oh this is so true. I have a tendency to behave like this due to nerves around my current love interest. It does seem to get better with time I suppose.

And for all of you Alpha NTs out there worrying, don't. Seriously, this guy is still biding his time with me, and we're still not even official, even though things have been going on for about 9-10 months now. You probably all think I'm nuts for hanging around but I think he's worth it. I can see that there's more beneath the surface and as much as it hurts at times, I'm still happy to go slow and wait for him to be more comfortable at this point, I'm just slowly letting him in and not forcing him to give me answers. I'm always really interested when he has something personal to say, but I hate seeing him feeling as if he's being forced out of his emotional shell. I find he will tell me what I want to know most of the time, but it's almost as if it wounds him to have emotional subjects and topics forced out, and he becomes resentful. I'm happy for him to blossom out of it in his own time - he's much more comfortable that way.

So here I am still not even officially in a relationship with him and he is still the person I have the most time for in this world. I'm sure you will all eventually find a nice Alpha SF to do the same. We have weak points too you know, you do have a lot to give as well.

To be honest, the only reasons that I want to have some sense of official relationship status with this guy at this point is so the I can be more publically affectionate and be able to do nice things for him, like little surprise gifts and dates/one-on-one time just exploring things further away from other people. You know - that shared learning of adventures, places, fun things to do...

I hope this gives you people a bit more hope....?

That is a more hopeful message, although I still need to translate it from SEI to ESE.

[Park]

Totally, "just be yourself" is a really crappy relationship advice, one of the worst. 100% of my relationship problems are caused because "I'm just being myself" and don't know how to change.

But do you think that you NEED TO change? I go with the thought that I shouldn't change because of social norms and standards or someone else's criteria or expectations, but indeed just "be myself" and try/insist to stand firmly for who I am, while developing my full capacity and potential as a human being. And perhaps somewhat stubbornly and idealistically, I also believe that there is someone out there that can really understand and accept me for how I am, without needing me to change, or to do any FUNDAMENTAL changes. So yeah, I'm not saying I'm perfect, I'm quite defective actually, but I am who I am. What you see is what you get, take it or leave it.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Mediator Kam]

But do you think that you NEED TO change? I go with the thought that I shouldn't change because of social norms and standards or someone else's criteria or expectations, but indeed just "be myself" and try/insist to stand firmly for who I am, while developing my full capacity and potential as a human being. And perhaps somewhat stubbornly and idealistically, I also believe that there is someone out there that can really understand and accept me for how I am, without needing me to change, or to do any FUNDAMENTAL changes. So yeah, I'm not saying I'm perfect, I'm quite defective actually, but I am who I am. What you see is what you get, take it or leave it.

This is exactly how I view it. I find it incorrect that someone would think they should fundementally change how they act in order to find a partner. You are you, and barring you being a pedophile or other deviant, you don't need to change a thing. At least that is my idealistic spin on it.

[Park]

This is exactly how I view it. I find it incorrect that someone would think they should fundementally change how they act in order to find a partner. You are you, and barring you being a pedophile or other deviant, you don't need to change a thing. At least that is my idealistic spin on it.

Yeah, absolutely. And in addition to what I said; No one should try to get me to change, because I won't. It's like... guarantied. I can only pretend, but that's not the way I roll.

@ephemeros: try using a better machine translator. but first, learn to talk.

[Warlord]

But do you think that you NEED TO change? I go with the thought that I shouldn't change because of social norms and standards or someone else's criteria or expectations, but indeed just "be myself" and try/insist to stand firmly for who I am, while developing my full capacity and potential as a human being. And perhaps somewhat stubbornly and idealistically, I also believe that there is someone out there that can really understand and accept me for how I am, without needing me to change, or to do any FUNDAMENTAL changes. So yeah, I'm not saying I'm perfect, I'm quite defective actually, but I am who I am. What you see is what you get, take it or leave it.

Yes, I think the same way. And I don't want to change. But that also results in utter failure relationship-wise.

[Warlord]

@Warlord: i disagree with you. of course every one should revise his character for ugly or antisocial stuff, but at the core he should stay himself. so, everything depends what someone perceives as "himself".
for me, at least, this advise worked, it is easy to predict which one will like or dislike me and why. it's a matter of adaptation and that depends on what i want. lately i keep in mind that people/places where i'm not welcome are not worth bothering. but yeah it's your life and happiness after all, do as you wish.

The advice only works if someone is not being themself, and it's the reason for their failure. If the person is already being themself, it's a useless and dumb advice to give. And based on BP's answer, that was the case.

[Mediator Kam]

The advice only works if someone is not being themself, and it's the reason for their failure. If the person is already being themself, it's a useless and dumb advice to give. And based on BP's answer, that was the case.

Just be yourself.

But I am a firm believer that someone is there for you warlord.

[Brilliand]

The advice only works if someone is not being themself, and it's the reason for their failure. If the person is already being themself, it's a useless and dumb advice to give. And based on BP's answer, that was the case.

Like most advice, it only works when it addresses the problem. :tongue:

@Kamajama: I think he needs to be himself in the right place at the right time. That's tricky. Although somehow it seems especially suited for an ILI.... ah, except the part about actually going there.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Park]

Yes, I think the same way. And I don't want to change. But that also results in utter failure relationship-wise.

Most of my relationships are (or usually end up as) total failures, too. Hell, I think my whole life is a fucking failure. And I know that there's very little you'll NOT do to improve your situation. And if you're like me, you'll always end up blaming yourself for every single failure and disappointment in your life, and you'll ask yourself why is life [mis]treating you so badly. And as much as this hurts, the only way to survive and keep on movin' is to live with your shame. As much as I, and others have tried, I've realized that CHANGE doesn't really happen. People have tried to change me, to reshape and adjust me to their perceptions of how I 'should be', and I've even tried to comply in certain instances, but all these efforts have always been in vain. This approach only results in - me getting more (and more) resistant, and the build-up of psycho-emotional tension that eventually results in wrong decisions and even more mistakes on my part.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Creepy-male]

Ah, must be a Gamma thing then.

[Brilliand]

"Be yourself" could be interpreted as "don't try."

That tends to result in failure, or at least non-success.

[ScanDave]

This sort of advice is completely wrong, however. Turn off the lifetime channel. When someone has a problem of not taking action (in my case not establishing intimacy), the solution is not to "be myself". Being myself is to be the same guy who hasn't been able to move past the surface in ANY of my romantic relationships.

Assuming that the whole world is wrong and you just need to "be yourself" is not a legitimate solution. I have a problem with my interaction with the world, and the only way to fix that is to change the one variable I control: me. I've moved on from this particular girl, but her comments have given me enough of a kick in the balls to piss me off and want to prove that I can establish a healthy relationship. That requires action on my part, which is a change from the usual inaction that would occur if I were "being myself".

Alrighty. But being yourself includes being comfortable with who you are. You say your issue is establishing intimacy. Part of being intimate with others means exposing yourself to those you wish to be intimate with. Anytime you put yourself out there, you put your being at risk to be judged. That means you will get kicked in the balls from time to time. It also means you will find great people to share yourself with from time to time.

I do not think you have problems establishing intimacy. The issue is you are picking on people to reciprocate establishing intimancy with you, who wish not to establish intimancy with you at that moment. You seem to have no problem coming on this forum and talking about yourself to complete strangers. It cannot be expected to gain intimancy over night, however. But look at what we have in this thread; you have people listening to you and giving you feed back and sharing their own experiences on a personal matter. That's a start.

That is until you start thinking back to those it never worked on. Then you throw up this wall by getting caught up in "OMG I suck at peoples!" The wall is blocking you from the people who wish to reciprocate establishing intimancy with you. The other side of the coin is maybe the people you have around only want surface level with you. If that is the case, you are doing nothing wrong. It's them, not you.

So you can stop focusing on people who don't give a damn about you if you like. Just roll with the cool ones. Whatever happens, happens.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Wynch]

Alrighty. But being yourself includes being comfortable with who you are. You say your issue is establishing intimacy. Part of being intimate with others means exposing yourself to those you wish to be intimate with. Anytime you put yourself out there, you put your being at risk to be judged. That means you will get kicked in the balls from time to time. It also means you will find great people to share yourself with from time to time.

I do not think you have problems establishing intimacy. The issue is you are picking on people to reciprocate establishing intimancy with you, who wish not to establish intimancy with you at that moment. You seem to have no problem coming on this forum and talking about yourself to complete strangers. It cannot be expected to gain intimancy over night, however. But look at what we have in this thread; you have people listening to you and giving you feed back and sharing their own experiences on a personal matter. That's a start.

That is until you start thinking back to those it never worked on. Then you throw up this wall by getting caught up in "OMG I suck at peoples!" The wall is blocking you from the people who wish to reciprocate establishing intimancy with you. The other side of the coin is maybe the people you have around only want surface level with you. If that is the case, you are doing nothing wrong. It's them, not you.

So you can stop focusing on people who don't give a damn about you if you like. Just roll with the cool ones. Whatever happens, happens.

I don't think it necessarily has to do with being comfortable with yourself. There's a possibility, but there are other possibilities as well. I think that people often jump to the "it's all about loving yourself" mentality when that's not always the case. I know that in my case my issue with intimacy is that it makes me feel uncomfortable because I can't simply mastermind my way to a solution if anything should happen and that makes me feel extremely vulnerable. I'm used to being able to channel my life in whatever direction I need, and one-on-one relationships with people are not something I can do that with.

That's just me though *shrugs*

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Khola aka Bee]

This made me feel like I was reading a machine translation from Russian

"meant no"->"didn't mean"



That is a more hopeful message, although I still need to translate it from SEI to ESE.

Make some loud noises!!

[Wynch]

does that refer to career or something?

It refers to all aspects of my life.

[Brilliand]

I always look at history and how other ILE's conducted relationships as a guide for how to build a successful one. Following the principles and parameters and adapting them to my own life.

However.. the prognosis is not good. A lot of ILE get into relationships with people they're already close to. Einstein after losing his first wife to infidelity, married his cousin who nursed his health due to his excesses. He did not marry again after she died soon after.

Marx's wife was Jenny von Westphalen, who was a childhood friend next door and who he married after many arduous years of fighting his family as well as hers. I think the disapproval strengthened their relationship, althrough he did cheat on her with the maid.

But either way, a majority of relationships I've seen ILE engage in successfully thru history is based on pre-existing/accidental intimacy and closeness rather then something that is consciously developed. I've found it basically impossible for me to "fall in love" with anyone, I either fall initially(not first sight usually) and it goes away or it never happens.

I think this applies to all Yielding types, although it's often misattributed to vs. (resulting in many contradictions about how valued/unvalued manifests).

On a more hopeful note, that pre-existing intimacy is something that can be worked toward; it doesn't have to be accidental.

EDIT: Wikisocion's description of yielding/obstinate is useless. I've found, in my limited observations (consisting of Gulanzon, Khola and myself), that the difference between "strong emotions" and "detailed emotions" is the easiest to identify with.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Creepy-bg]

cool! if i were you i'd be a king already.
now seriously, i had this the impression before, that you are a judging type, now i'm sure. basically this means that you can't be an ILE.

anyway, about the issue, i noticed that strongly career-oriented people have problems in relationships, usually. i think this is connected to the strong self-imposed discipline which builds a "new self", or something. considering this self is vital for their life, i believe they feel hard to open up and be natural even with the partner.
so mn0good, in your case, what could happen to leave you vulnerable? basically your motivation and reason are important, not what happens, because i believe it's not shyness-related, right?

you question other peoples self typings a lot. it's annoying. just letting you know.

/edit maybe try stating those things as "your opinion" (which they are) instead of fact.

[Banana Pancakes]

epheremos:

I had initially typed her as IEI, but she's Si. Those words aren't really good ones to type her by, she rarely talks aggressively and I worked really hard to get that strong of a response. Half of those aren't even her words, she's just quoting me and other people. I've never enjoyed being around anyone so much in my life, and she felt the same way, there were just problems moving forward.

Don't get me wrong, I don't really want her to be my dual, but if she's IEI than I'm SLE.

And if mn0good isn't ILE, I'm not either. I'm tired of people on this site attributing problems to mistyping, type conflicts, etc. People of the same type can have different opinions than you! Successful people are those who can coexist with anyone regardless of type. The only variable you control in any situation is YOU.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Banana Pancakes]

"I also realized that my duals really do understand how terrible I am at SiFe and that I'm incapable of intimacy." - this is why i got involved here, it is not true. your feelings have nothing to do with Socionics, you also look hurt and i'm sad to see you like this. i'm also sad you put your feelings above the truth. bye!

I appreciate the thought, I'm not really feeling bad any more though . I'm trying to move on from the relationship and get something useful from it.

Also, have you made a thread about your fake dual and your new one? I wouldn't mind hearing about that.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Banana Pancakes]

things like this happened to me before and i know how excruciating are, but i had an excuse: i was not aware of Socionics. actually, this is the reason i got into it. you don't have this excuse

Actually...she made it quite clear the time she liked me was when I was just getting in to socionics, and she hates socionics because I was always telling her she was IEI and not my dual. So actually, socionics fucked me here, for better or worse.

PS: i talked so bad about her in the hope your feelings can be distracted. i think there is a possibility that she "played" with you, thought which i don't enjoy. in any case, that is not a SEI behavior :|

There were a lot of things I disliked about her and a lot of things I liked. Really don't want to get into them, want to forget about her at this point

hmm... i don't think i know what you're talking about. can you elaborate?

I was referring to this comment:

imo you're a bit living in a fantasy world about the ILE's dual. it happened to me before, but when i discovered the things were kinda different from what i imagined. that *%#$* was not an SEI, and the problem on this thread is there is no problem!

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[buckland]

Anyone finding socionics to be slightly counter-productive in the relationship arena. The ESE caregiver thing has led me to be very passive because of this strange expectation that they are in charge of the social arena and I should just go along for the ride. Had I not read any of this though, ESE would probably not have been the type I would intuitively have gone after, though I probably would have ended up with one purely from compatibility. It just seems like I have bought into my role as an LII to a relatively unhealthy level. A bit of now and again, though uncomfortable and in my opinion unecessary may be just what is needed for full type realisation. This could only apply to me though, but I was curious if anyone else has gone through the same.

[Creepy-male]

Well, bucko (can I call you that? ), duals help you with your PoLR, by basically lifting the load and saying "Let's do this! But you can stop and rest any time."

Well, at least, in theory. Was that what you were describing?

(Also, I've found from personal experience, that I use my PoLR sometimes. The problem is that I can't switch it off again in a hurry, and that's what leads to the reactionary policy of "D:", because usually it just winds up with my whinging anxiously about The Uncertain Future. Similarly with LIIs, is it like the ESE pushes you to jump up off your ass and move? This possibly explains why SLIs seem so dead to me--not only are they uncomfortable with Fe impulses, but the Se prods bounce off them.)

[buckland]

Well, bucko (can I call you that? ), duals help you with your PoLR, by basically lifting the load and saying "Let's do this! But you can stop and rest any time."

Well, at least, in theory. Was that what you were describing?

(Also, I've found from personal experience, that I use my PoLR sometimes. The problem is that I can't switch it off again in a hurry, and that's what leads to the reactionary policy of "D:", because usually it just winds up with my whinging anxiously about The Uncertain Future. Similarly with LIIs, is it like the ESE pushes you to jump up off your ass and move? This possibly explains why SLIs seem so dead to me--not only are they uncomfortable with Fe impulses, but the Se prods bounce off them.)

Prefer Bucky actually :wink:. Yeah, I know that duals do that with the polr and I have experienced it. I think the problem is that before socionics, this happened naturally without any analysis on my part making our interactions natural. Now, a part of me is probably playing up to the LII image I have in my head rather than just being me. There is constant 2nd guessing which is counter productive in some sense. I do totally love the ESE push, they infuse me with energy purely by their presence. I just wish sometimes that I could shut off the analysis and just be... And the ESE whining, I know it annoys a lot of people but it seems to just slide off my back. There is a mixture of ignoring and caring that I seem to be able to do that works just right for you guys. Sure I am not the only LII, or person for that matter, where that happens but I guess the converse is true with my weaknesses.

[Creepy-male]

How would you say you play this LII image up? And what is it?

Also, maybe it's just dualdar, but I find LIIs to be really energizing myself.

(And I hear you! Intuitively I guess I'd have gone after SEIs... if it weren't for the fact that I'm ironically rather socially anxious )

EDIT

Like the girl in my avatar! LIIs make me want to hug them, they're so radiant and d'awwwwwww.

[Brilliand]

How would you say you play this LII image up? And what is it?

It's helplessness/inability to face challenges due to not having at all. I've played that image before.

EDIT: That isn't all of it, of course.

[crazedrat]

you're incapable of intimacy because your life is lame and you have nothing to be intimate about.