PoLR vs Role vs Hidden Agenda

[Hugo]

Can someone give clear differences between hidden agenda and role function.

Thanks

[Joy]

As for as I know the Role Function is sorta like a switch we can flip on and off... we don't automatically use that function, but when we decide to we can. I think sometimes we use it to cover up for other weak functions just because it's easier to use than they are.

The hidden agenda is used to cover for one specific weak function, the POLR. In my experience, we can use our POLR function if our hidden agenda makes it safe for us. Someone wth a hidden agenda of Si may work out in order to be heathly, even though Se is their POLR. Having Fi as a POLR, I can use it as long as there's plenty of Fe going on. Fe makes me feel safe enough to use Fi.

Does anyone else find that their hidden agenda motivates their Role Function? Like, without their hidden agenda being fullfilled, they have no motivation to use their Role Function? How would being with your dual affect this?

[ConcreteButterfly]

As for as I know the Role Function is sorta like a switch we can flip on and off... we don't automatically use that function, but when we decide to we can. I think sometimes we use it to cover up for other weak functions just because it's easier to use than they are.

The hidden agenda is used to cover for one specific weak function, the POLR. In my experience, we can use our POLR function if our hidden agenda makes it safe for us. Someone wth a hidden agenda of Si may work out in order to be heathly, even though Se is their POLR. Having Fi as a POLR, I can use it as long as there's plenty of Fe going on. Fe makes me feel safe enough to use Fi.

Does anyone else find that their hidden agenda motivates their Role Function? Like, without their hidden agenda being fullfilled, they have no motivation to use their Role Function? How would being with your dual affect this?

Yeah definitely, it's like you temporarily lose all interest in your role, and default instead to your observing function. With the hidden agenda (mobilizing function, which is a much better term!) being fulfilled, the role function becomes energized and you become more expressive of it, and the polr.

[Joy]

observing function

wazzat?

[glam]

wazzat?

another name for the 7th function, the Ignoring

[schrödinger's cat]

For those who (like myself) aren't very familiar with the Socionics terms:

role function - 3d function
PoLR (point of least resistance) - 4th function
hidden agenda - 6th function

Information on the ordering of functions for the different types can be found on www.socion.info or on this site. On this website, your PoLR is called "shyness" and your hidden agenda "estimative", and the function-attitudes themselves are represented by these symbols
Si Ni Fi Ti Se Ne Fe Te .

[science as magic]

In terms of one another? The hidden agenda is the release valve for the mold of the pressure exerted by the role function that "shapes" your interaction function. Like if you took some jello and put it in a mold and then later removed the mold after it had hardened and it plooped down and collapsed into a goeey mess because it was no longer held in shape by the mold.

[Gilly]

I think of Role Functions as being the natural role of an individual in a group situation. For example, an INFp with role might take the role of observing group dynamics and how people interact each other, which helps him use his and to come up with creative solutions for keeping the group emotionally healthy. An ENTp, on the other hand, has :se: as a role function, resulting in her taking a role in the development of group hierarchy, likely taking a lead role.

This is part of what causes conflict between Quasi-Identities: they have each others' Hidden Agendas as Role functions, so they become subconsciously jealous of each others' role within a group, manifesting itself in an outward expression of perceived disdain, which, although it may seem grounded in some case, is actually motivated by Hidden Agenda "starvation."

[Ave]

I think of Role Functions as being the natural role of an individual in a group situation. For example, an INFp with role might take the role of observing group dynamics and how people interact each other, which helps him use his and to come up with creative solutions for keeping the group emotionally healthy. An ENTp, on the other hand, has :se: as a role function, resulting in her taking a role in the development of group hierarchy, likely taking a lead role.

This is part of what causes conflict between Quasi-Identities: they have each others' Hidden Agendas as Role functions, so they become subconsciously jealous of each others' role within a group, manifesting itself in an outward expression of perceived disdain, which, although it may seem grounded in some case, is actually motivated by Hidden Agenda "starvation."

Interesting idea. Im wondering, though if the role function is an actual role one plays in the eyes of others, or if others who have it as a strong function can see through it. I can see through my mom'e ENFJ friends's as being pretty sloppy, for example.

I have an interesting anecdote in regards to your theory about a girl in my class who was INTJ and how we sort of felt jealous towards each other. Well maybe "jealous" isnt really the word but it was like her role of being able to connect one on one with people, especially the girl I liked, kinda made me wish I had her ability to do the same. Whereas my ability to stay relatively healthy and "go outside with my hair wet when sick" seemed to really piss her off.

[Gilly]

That sounds conceptually similar to the conflict I have in social situations with my ENTj friend. She seems to command alot of the emotionally directed attention of the group just because she tends to attract drama, while I, on the other hand, have more of a leader/controller role in terms of steering the group towards an activity or point of view, and I have both observed, and will admit, that there is an element of jealousy from both sides.

[XoX]

Both can cause suffering in a way. How do you know which one is causing you pain?

Take for example ESTp with Fi PoLR and Fe hidden agenda. If people feel negatively and criticize them for their behavior doesn't it hit both at the same time? How can you hit only one of them? Are PoLR and hidden agenda somehow connected?

[Joy]

We like to think we're good at whatever our hidden agenda is. We resent being expected to use our PoLR function. We don't think we should have to.

[Ave]

I've been confused about this myself...I've always understood it like this: both are very weak, but the hidden agenda thinks its strong and is not afraid of critcism while the polr knows its weak and is.

[Joy]

The hidden agenda hates criticism. It likes to believe it's strong.

[Expat]

We like to think we're good at whatever our hidden agenda is. We resent being expected to use our PoLR function. We don't think we should have to.

I think that's a good way of putting it.

[Joy]

How does it feel when someone hits your Role vs. how it feels when they hit your PoLR?

[pezzonovante]

I'll give this one a shot.

I took a PoLR hit today, I just thought "fuccckkkkkk" to myself and didn't talk for a while. I notice that when I take a PoLR hit I can never really respond to it well. Usually with other types of criticism I will either deflect it with a joke or turn it around and hit them back.

As far as a Role hit, I can't really think of a time when someone hit my role. My third function is stronger than usual because I am a subtype, this may or may not have something to do with it. Give me an example of a hit and I'll tell you how I felt.

[Smilingeyes]

Give me an example of a hit and I'll tell you how I felt.

*an attempt at a Fe-hit follows*

Sorry, but nobody cares about what you ask because you're not part of the group. You can't just barge into a thread about types and try to turn it into all about you. You have to give something before you expect you can make others do something for you. It's obvious that you didn't care about what Joy asked for so nobody cares about you either.

[FDG]

Role hit is rare indeed, and not particularly unpleasant, since it seems to lead to actions aimed at improving the situation, and not the opposite. Thus, I'd say that the role function is something that, when hit, can be recognized as a problem, and the person can do something about it.

My PoLR has been hit with not particularly high frequency. More than the usual "you are unreliable" stuff, which isn't said to me that often, I get told that I am excessively private about my relationships with other people. Truth to be told, it's not that I am excessively private: I just don't have a clue about what they are. So, I'd say that a PoLR hit is something that we have to take and swallow without being able to do something to better the situation.

[XoX]

Sorry, but nobody cares about what you ask because you're not part of the group. You can't just barge into a thread about types and try to turn it into all about you. You have to give something before you expect you can make others do something for you. It's obvious that you didn't care about what Joy asked for so nobody cares about you either.

That was an attempt at a Fe-hit btw, not a real opinion.

Lol, I was really confused about where that opinion came from It is good I read this whole thread before answering I wonder if it hit MY role or PoLR too Because I do that kind of stuff all the time it is almost like indirectly aimed at me. Made me really feel like "Damn, am I doing something wrong? Should I change something? Or is smilex just overly judging and I shouldn't even care about this kind of criticism?".

And about the actual subject, I'm not sure because I don't know my exact type What I have been wondering, however, is how much subtype affects Role and PoLR. E.g. would INFp intuitive sub behave like Si is their PoLR and Te is their role. Sort of like an ENFj with IP temperament. And so on.

[snegledmaca]

I don't think I've had my role or polr hit. Actually, what would constitute a polr or role hit, how would one know, recognize their polr or role had been hit?

[cracka]

oooh oooh, i wanna be hit too...someone gimme a PoLR hit...lol

haha, i don't really know what it would be, but if it's something that a person does or says that makes me want to actually rip their head off I probably already know what it is.

[Exodus]

Remind me again what a Ti hit would be like? Someone explained it last time you asked this question, but I forgot what they said.

Can't you figure it out yourself? You're always relying on other people's judgment. Think for yourself for once.

oooh oooh, i wanna be hit too...someone gimme a PoLR hit...lol

Are you sure about this? I don't think you've carefully considered what would happen in such a circumstance--It could have many unintended consequences.


hehehe. Don't kill me.

[Shytan]

Gimme an example of an Se-Polr hit

[Beautiful sky]

Gimme an example of an Se-Polr hit

An SLE looking directly at me and pointing to my acne scars and saying "you had acne here and here" I respond very badly to this type of criticism. I look away and it brings feelings of sadness and awareness which makes me feel inadequate. My duals don't do this shit. My duals want to fix things so they will reference to solution saying "drinking more water will make your skin less dry" and "I saw this person putting sour cream all over their face and it cleared their acne; here do you have some? I have some I can give you to try" My duals

[Mr inappropriate]

An SLE looking directly at me and pointing to my acne scars and saying "you had acne here and here" I respond very badly to this type of criticism. I look away and it brings feelings of sadness and awareness which makes me feel inadequate. My duals don't do this shit. My duals want to fix things so they will reference to solution saying "drinking more water will make your skin less dry" and "I saw this person putting sour cream all over their face and it cleared their acne; here do you have some? I have some I can give you to try" My duals

Your example just made me imagine that you are living in a secret society with people IQ levels below 80. "you had acne here"; "here do you have some ? I mean sour cream. try it" WHAT ? lol

[Joy]

As far as a Role hit, I can't really think of a time when someone hit my role. My third function is stronger than usual because I am a subtype, this may or may not have something to do with it. Give me an example of a hit and I'll tell you how I felt.

The best examples of what it's like for me that I can come up with are how I feel when people try to stick me in gender roles. For example, a therapist told me that I have "gender role reversal" issues because I want a stay at home spouse, and I got super pissed off and never went back. Who is she to tell me what my role ought to be?

[Mea]

Umm, I have no idea what a hit is like directed at my role function.
Does it work like when someone tries to control an ENFp? Like ordering them around and stuff?
Well, when that happens it gets me really mad. I'll have no problems confronting that person, and I don't think I'll sound very nice. LOL!

[UDP]

polr hit is a great motivation, as far as I'm concerned. It does not feel good, but I've learned to appreciate it rather than anything else. Se polr hits usually occur in two kinds -- one's that I don't care about because certain people perceive Se in certain ways, and have different values than I do.

Other ones burn more obviously. Competence and value, having meaning is important.

They are less devistating than they used to be, though, because I've refined my views more to look at Se. I was actually considering being an LSI recently, . But that whole process in general helped position things. It made my stronger, and made me more conscious about , so it worked out well.

[mustachio]

i've gotten my PoLR hit so many times it hurts talking about it. i'm just not good with feelings. if i do share my feelings with somebody then it's because i fully trust them. otherwise, i can be very insecure. but my insecurity only manifests itself with people i care about. i always wonder if i can truly trust them. like i'm in a spy game or something and they're out to get me. a PoLR hit can seem paralysing. a Fi hit can seem like paranoia. it's like a deep wound that never fully heals. "the first cut is the deepest".

a role hit? hmm, that's kind of obscure to me. mine would be Ne=intuition of potentialities. i think you can still defend yourself but you can't really understand the situation, or perhaps, what the other person is talking about. it's like the edge of your mind, the extent of your intelligence. anything beyond is a black hole. so you stand firmly by your base function seeing as it makes more sense. or you try to relate the foreign concept to you ego block which is no small feat. i dunno, does this make sense to any of you?

[Mea]

i've gotten my PoLR hit so many times it hurts talking about it. i'm just not good with feelings. if i do share my feelings with somebody then it's because i fully trust them. otherwise, i can be very insecure. but my insecurity only manifests itself with people i care about. i always wonder if i can truly trust them. like i'm in a spy game or something and they're out to get me. a PoLR hit can seem paralysing. a Fi hit can seem like paranoia. it's like a deep wound that never fully heals. "the first cut is the deepest".

a role hit? hmm, that's kind of obscure to me. mine would be Ne=intuition of potentialities. i think you can still defend yourself but you can't really understand the situation, or perhaps, what the other person is talking about. it's like the edge of your mind, the extent of your intelligence. anything beyond is a black hole. so you stand firmly by your base function seeing as it makes more sense. or you try to relate the foreign concept to you ego block which is no small feat. i dunno, does this make sense to any of you?

You sure you have a Fi PoLR?

[maze]

i've gotten my PoLR hit so many times it hurts talking about it. i'm just not good with feelings. if i do share my feelings with somebody then it's because i fully trust them. otherwise, i can be very insecure. but my insecurity only manifests itself with people i care about. i always wonder if i can truly trust them. like i'm in a spy game or something and they're out to get me. a PoLR hit can seem paralysing. a Fi hit can seem like paranoia. it's like a deep wound that never fully heals. "the first cut is the deepest".

Herzy wrote something similar to this experience too. I've read something about SLE's expecting dirty tricks from others. A teacher I worked with was ready to bring war upon the person who sent her crappy books. She figured she got the bad end of the selection on purpose, because she isn't liked. (she's the union rep.) I told her she doesn't know that. Maybe the selection was random? She calmed down and thanked me for the reassurance I provided. She still tracked down the person who sent out the books and questioned her motives. lol But it was done in a much more diplomatic fashion.

a role hit? hmm, that's kind of obscure to me. mine would be Ne=intuition of potentialities. i think you can still defend yourself but you can't really understand the situation, or perhaps, what the other person is talking about. it's like the edge of your mind, the extent of your intelligence. anything beyond is a black hole. so you stand firmly by your base function seeing as it makes more sense. or you try to relate the foreign concept to you ego block which is no small feat. i dunno, does this make sense to any of you?

It makes sense in my case as well. Whenever I feel Si information is being asked of me, I feel like a retard.

*I don't know if so and so looks thinner, and if I'm asked if I think so and so lost weight, I draw an uncomfortable blank.
*I get a sense that people are always watching the internal needs of others and since I'm usually in Ni la-la-land, I feel like a selfish-insensitive person for not noticing that...the plant is drying out.
*I'm not comfortable brainstorming about the best solution for attaining....water. Just....whatever the other person wants is fine with me.
*I don't like to be in discussions that deal with problem solving everyday survival stuff. I always feel like it's trivial-talk that removes me from my thoughts.

[pezzonovante]

Sorry, but nobody cares about what you ask because you're not part of the group. You can't just barge into a thread about types and try to turn it into all about you. You have to give something before you expect you can make others do something for you. It's obvious that you didn't care about what Joy asked for so nobody cares about you either.

When I first read this I really did feel the role hit. I took instant offense to it and prepared to respond to it in a way that would even the score. But it was much different than a PoLR hit, much less severe. After a PoLR hit I feel almost depressed, while as after the Role hit I just felt offended. However getting a Role hit IRL will probably be somewhat more severe.

Great idea BTW.

[flower]

Yeah, I think when your polr is hit you feel depressed when you reflect on it, it makes you feel inadequate and worthless. As someone before said, it can however turn into a great motivator as you see it as a path to becoming a more complete person.

Im not sure about role function, I think its usually taking in good spirit or a positive critisism though.

[snegledmaca]

Sorry, but nobody cares about what you ask because you're not part of the group. You can't just barge into a thread about types and try to turn it into all about you. You have to give something before you expect you can make others do something for you. It's obvious that you didn't care about what Joy asked for so nobody cares about you either.

When I first read this I really did feel the role hit. I took instant offense to it and prepared to respond to it in a way that would even the score. But it was much different than a PoLR hit, much less severe. After a PoLR hit I feel almost depressed, while as after the Role hit I just felt offended. However getting a Role hit IRL will probably be somewhat more severe.

I doubt that had anything to do with your Role. My first reaction was the same as yours. I'd call getting insulted by that comment a normal reaction, and *not* getting insulted as perhaps an indicator of something.

Yeah, I think when your polr is hit you feel depressed when you reflect on it, it makes you feel inadequate and worthless.

In that case my PoLR has to do with relationships.

[Smilingeyes]

I doubt that had anything to do with your Role. My first reaction was the same as yours. I'd call getting insulted by that comment a normal reaction, and *not* getting insulted as perhaps an indicator of something.

Yeah, I think when your polr is hit you feel depressed when you reflect on it, it makes you feel inadequate and worthless.

In that case my PoLR has to do with relationships.

Sneg, you're reading it wrong. No matter what function you use to hit someone it's always generally insulting. The reaction is just different when you're hit with something that targets your ego functions vs. non-ego functions. You're defensive which fits an ego function hit, pezzo got angry at first then nulled the comment, neither of you got the feeling of a PoLR hit from that. There was some discussion a long time back about creating good insults against different functions. None of them were nice but most of them didn't feel like they really hurt.

[Kristiina]

Maybe it's PoLR hit when someone would tell me - It's great that you dream about being a scientist. And that you're not discouraged by bad grades or that the odds of being paid a decent salary are so small. That's so great, I'm happy for you. <--that's the ISFp way of hitting my PoLR and reminding me that despite all my dreams I'm still just a nobody. ISTp would also try to be practical and advise me of the small odds that my plan of life would ever succeed... Makes me feel bad and worthless either way. It's not like I can even argue with that - they are right. I'm just a nobody with dreams. Reaction - smile and nod, keep telling myself that all I need is faith that I will succeed. (which sounds totally depressing - building a life upon faith.).

I have a hard time seeing the difference between role hit and critics in my field. I just know this - I feel absolutely emotionally shattered for a moment when someone tells me, "I don't care how things generally are - tell me what it was exactly." and "This is totally untrue! Actually it is <paraphrase of what I just said>". Kinda makes me die inside a little.

[Smilingeyes]

Hmm, it appears Transigent killed his "Function insults" thread.
And Slava's PoLR insult generator -program is not available anymore either. So I guess there's actually a need for new insults if someone wants to test his PoLR.

[snegledmaca]

Sneg, you're reading it wrong. No matter what function you use to hit someone it's always generally insulting. The reaction is just different when you're hit with something that targets your ego functions vs. non-ego functions. You're defensive which fits an ego function hit, pezzo got angry at first then nulled the comment, neither of you got the feeling of a PoLR hit from that. There was some discussion a long time back about creating good insults against different functions. None of them were nice but most of them didn't feel like they really hurt.

How was I being defensive?

[Smilingeyes]

How was I being defensive?

Sorry, that's a catch-22, because asking that is itself defensive.