Oh, I don't micromanage, LIEs can explain with their Ne demo/Ni creative anyway very well why something they are doing is going to work out.Originally Posted by Ares
I find they don't have a problem with following standard procedures if those are enforced.
In the case of LIE you at least have the Ni/Se to help smooth things out, this would be more apparent in relations with LSE. I would note however that I don't think shared Se valuing always help relations with someone especially if they aren't your dual. Two Se types arguing over something could lead to a worse situation then if one of them was a Si type.
LIE/LSE still have strong Ti so they would still pay more attention towards procedures then an SEE or IEE would. Its just that they are good at knowing when procedures interfere with their ability to perform a task better, and they will not hesitate to disregard them when they think they can get away with it. Nevertheless they can still make mistakes by ignoring procedures and anger Ti leads in such cases.
I'm sure there are a load more factors affecting these situations.
Dunno, I really never had this problem with them.LIE/LSE still have strong Ti so they would still pay more attention towards procedures then an SEE or IEE would. Its just that they are good at knowing when procedures interfere with their ability to perform a task better, and they will not hesitate to disregard them when they think they can get away with it. Nevertheless they can still make mistakes by ignoring procedures and anger Ti leads in such cases.
But that whole thing together is just really Fi focused to me because - if I were to be the recipient of the criticism - it's kinda questioning my own sensitivity about the personal feelings of mine and other people's. And that's absolutely Fi. Do you see what I mean?Well Fe is also personal... but it's more general in the way that it's about basic emotions, like anger or happiness. So maybe that's what it's meant by being general.So for example, where you talk of "disturbing the emotion of others" here is a good example of Fi, the way you put it, due to your linking emotion to the individual, makes me think of having to be very careful of all the different personal feelings. It makes me feel like I have to focus on each person as their own individual, with much sensitivity required to not upset them with something silly.
Fe is about "objectification of the subjective" or "objective emotions"... if you know what I mean. All feelings are subjective, and hence why Fe is "Internal Dynamics of Objects". But Fe is what's "out there" and what's broad-casted to the outside world, like facial expressions, body posture, tone of voice and so on. Fe types are usually good at picking up those information.
The "Fe sensibility" can vary from person to person. But the basic rule is to not disturb those "objective emotions". The "Fe sensibility" will be offended when they observe that others' emotions get disturbed, as in they got their "feelings hurt". Some people may get their feelings hurt easily, some people don't. Fe types are usually sensitive to those things, so it does have to be dealt with on a person-to-person basis somewhat.
But this should not be confused with thinking that "Fi is what people are feeling on the inside" or "personal feelings". Fe is also about what people are "feeling on the inside", like anger or happiness. It's just that Fe deals with something more dynamic, like those feelings themselves. Feelings are constantly moving and changing. Fi is something more static, like morals or judgments.
Well that's probably because you're an LSI, they don't usually offend the "Fe sensibilities" because they are usually polite and not very offensive. However, obviously Fe types can criticize anyone if they feel that somebody is hurting others' feeling. They can criticize other Ti types, they can criticize other Fe types.No, then how would ExE dualize with LxI? I find it's truly disturbing to the Fi types only. In my experience Fe types don't criticize it, or they might joke about it, but no such serious criticism like the one you are talking about, they will just instead focus on getting things (emotionally) moving and I easily go along with it.
Why would Ti types hurt Fi types? Because they try to rationalize and make sense of moral judgments, which are usually based on feelings only, "just because" "because it's right" etc, and they don't necessarily have any logic or rationality behind them.
Last edited by Singu; 01-29-2017 at 04:03 AM.
Yeah, turns out I'm SEE, not LIE. Whoops. Also, I don't actually talk to anyone like that. lol
No, I meant more the "objectification" by being general. It's not just about basic emotions.
So how does this differ from Fi seeing their feelings or some other person's feelings getting hurt?The "Fe sensibility" can vary from person to person. But the basic rule is to not disturb those "objective emotions". The "Fe sensibility" will be offended when they observe that others' emotions get disturbed, as in they got their "feelings hurt". Some people may get their feelings hurt easily, some people don't. Fe types are usually sensitive to those things, so it does have to be dealt with on a person-to-person basis somewhat.
I'm not saying Fe can't have that, just you are not being very clear to me here.
I know about the dynamic/static difference and that both Ethics functions are Internal information (not explicit like Logic, more "inside" in this way, sure).But this should not be confused with thinking that "Fi is what people are feeling on the inside" or "personal feelings". Fe is also about what people are "feeling on the inside", like anger or happiness. It's just that Fe deals with something more dynamic, like those feelings themselves. Feelings are constantly moving and changing. Fi is something more static, like morals or judgments.
The politeness is Fi role. But also, I can go along with the Fe input, so that helps.Well that's probably because you're an LSI, they don't usually offend the "Fe sensibilities" because they are usually polite and not very offensive. However, obviously Fe types can criticize anyone if they feel that somebody is hurting others' feeling. They can criticize other Ti types, they can criticize other Fe types.
What I said is that Fe types don't criticize me like Fi types do about being "robotic". Probably, as I said, because I'm not robotic with them anyway.
Sure.Why would Ti types hurt Fi types? Because they try to rationalize and make sense of moral judgments, which are usually based on feelings only, "just because" "because it's right" etc, and they don't necessarily have any logic or rationality behind them.
All in all that post of yours that I called all Fi, it sure has the same effect on me as when Fi types criticize people. Fe criticism has a different effect on me. It doesn't mean I will feel good with it, it just means I can organize their input much better for myself than the Fi inputs. And so I can respond better, too (even if sometimes it can take time to fully "get it" first).
And I think I can organize it better because it focuses on the emotional states/"objects", which I didn't see in your example post that tried to be Fe that I called Fi.
Well both Fe and Fi would care about hurt feelings in general, but I think Fi is more about seeing (and setting straight) disturbances in established relationships. So Fi would probably be less likely to just go up to a random person/stranger and do the thing that I said in my example. They care less about people that they don't have any personal established connections to, while Fe would just "see" any disturbances in people's feelings, regardless of the relation. But this is just a general trend, I'm sure there are time when Fi types care and Fe types don't care.
I also think that Fi is more likely to criticize ethical behavior, while Fe is more like to criticize or soothe hurt feelings.
So how I think about it is this, for Fi types the Fe is subordinated to Fi, and for Fe types the Fi is subordinated to Fe.
So feelings FOLLOW relationships for Fi
While relationships FOLLOW feelings for Fe.
An example is this, a Fi type might say, "You should love your brother". That's because the relational ethics say that you should love your brother because of being blood family or whatever (which is kind of circular). So you love him, THEN you are nice to him. Fi > Fe
But a Fe type might say or think, "If you loved your brother, then you would be nice to him". Or "Being nice shows that you love him". So it's more Fe > Fi. It's more "objective" than subjective.
I could be wrong, but that's how I think about it atm.
Well I wouldn't say "robotic", but that's actually how a T type described herself. But a Fe type might say that he/she has "no emotion", because the person is not displaying any outward emotion, which is typical of Fe-PoLR types.What I said is that Fe types don't criticize me like Fi types do about being "robotic". Probably, as I said, because I'm not robotic with them anyway.
Well, I think it's consistent with Fe. But maybe Fe-leading is a little different than Fe-creative.All in all that post of yours that I called all Fi, it sure has the same effect on me as when Fi types criticize people. Fe criticism has a different effect on me. It doesn't mean I will feel good with it, it just means I can organize their input much better for myself than the Fi inputs. And so I can respond better, too (even if sometimes it can take time to fully "get it" first).
And I think I can organize it better because it focuses on the emotional states/"objects", which I didn't see in your example post that tried to be Fe that I called Fi.
If you look at SLI's Fe-PoLR description, maybe you can kind of understand it:
http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...averted_ethics
Last edited by Singu; 01-31-2017 at 09:55 AM.
I don't think those examples were very good tbh. Niceness can be either Fe or Fi in that reasoning, for example. For the niceness stuff, the last example was a bit more Fe than the other one.
Well what I meant to illustrate was, I think for Fe relations come before emotions, and for Fi, emotions come before relations. So if it were not for "niceness", then it could be something like anger:
"If you loved your parents, then you would not be angry around them".
vs.
"You should love you parents, and then you would not be angry with them".
Well that's just really black and white, but only meant to illustrate a point.
Back to the original point, I think "Fi criticism" would be more like criticizing the character of a person, like "You are a terrible person" or "You should be nicer to others" (moral judgments). While Fe is just more "emotional criticism", like "You hurt the other person, therefore you are a bad person" (more "objective"). Fi would be more like "You are a terrible person, and therefore you hurt others (and continue to do so)".
I think a Fe type is less likely to say those "moral judgments" out loud, like "You are a terrible person" (even though he's probably thinking "this person is terrible" etc), while Fi types are more likely to make those judgments clear and heard. A Fe type would simply, try to control the offender's emotions. A Fi type controls through moral judgments.
Last edited by Singu; 02-02-2017 at 09:39 PM.
Ask Fe and Fi egos if they see it this way.
This is backwards again. But even the opposite would be an oversimplification. Fi- and Fe-egos often use similar phrasing and vocabulary, but they are moved to speech or action by different nuances.
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