PoLR vs Role vs Hidden Agenda

[Kim]

So, did it work?

So, I'm curious. What would be a Ti PoLR hit? Or as Se role hit?

Ti PoLR: "wait a moment, what you said right now totally contradicts what you said five minutes ago. You never make any sense, you go into all directions and then back in a totally chaotic way".

Se PoLR: "you're too nice, you can't say no to anyone, you let everyone trample all over you. That's why nobody takes you seriously at your job and nobody pays any attention to what you're saying".

!!!

the one is perfect!

Here is Expat's customized example for me when I asked a few days ago:

You do realize that it makes no sense at all that you were so convinced that [your boyfriend] was ESTj, then you were writing as if you thought he was ENTp, and now you're back to ESTj? That doesn't make any sense .

It was only an illustration of hitting a Ti PoLR, but I still wanted to curl into a ball and hide and be all shy.
:wink:

[Mea]

So, did it work?

So, I'm curious. What would be a Ti PoLR hit? Or as Se role hit?

Ti PoLR: "wait a moment, what you said right now totally contradicts what you said five minutes ago. You never make any sense, you go into all directions and then back in a totally chaotic way".

Se PoLR: "you're too nice, you can't say no to anyone, you let everyone trample all over you. That's why nobody takes you seriously at your job and nobody pays any attention to what you're saying".

!!!

the one is perfect!

Here is Expat's customized example for me when I asked a few days ago:

You do realize that it makes no sense at all that you were so convinced that [your boyfriend] was ESTj, then you were writing as if you thought he was ENTp, and now you're back to ESTj? That doesn't make any sense .

It was only an illustration of hitting a Ti PoLR, but I still wanted to curl into a ball and hide and be all shy.
:wink:

Heh. Yes. I relate to that too. Since I can't quite decide on what type my boyfriend is too.

[Rocky]

Anyhow, I do think we need an Ne one.

Here's a try at Ne, based on observations: "That excites you? What's so interesting about that? Are you only interested in boring and insignificant things?"

People who have said things along those lines have offended me... I usually take a lot of time learning about certain things that I enjoy but are seperate from mainstream interest, such as if there is a band or a historical figure or whatever that I particuarly enjoy... however I can't choose my socionics PoLR since I would also get a bit depressed if people rejected my efforts to reach out to them, or seemed to not want to include me or something. Meh. I don't get it.

[FDG]

lol I sorta already do with certain people... I'm not really willing to admit to more than that though.

Like we don't notice :wink:

That's pretty accurate. However, it seems more directed towards irrational types.

Yeah, but if somebody were to say that at me, I would shrug it off and say "I just figured out I was wrong before"[/img]

[Expat]

Ti PoLR: "wait a moment, what you said right now totally contradicts what you said five minutes ago. You never make any sense, you go into all directions and then back in a totally chaotic way".

That's pretty accurate. However, it seems more directed towards irrational types.

Well, the two Ti PoLR types are irrational, and .

[Mea]

Well, I'm not too sure what this is. But someone just said something to me that irritated me.

"It's not like you have a choice now. You should do what they expect you to do, at least do the stuff that directly involves you. Like I said, you don't have a say in this matter anymore. You just have to accept it."

I was pretty put off by that. Firstly I was thinking, "what the hell do you mean, that I don't have a choice?? If I wanted a say in the matter, I could and WOULD do something about it. And I do have other choices. This isn't the only way out. And who are you to tell me what I should or should not do?? I know what I'm doing."

Was that an attack on my role function (Se) ??

[Expat]

Was that an attack on my role function (Se) ??

Perhaps it was more like a repression of your base function .

[anndelise]

Jonathon:

The Ti one makes sense, although the other person's Ti one about figuring stuff out by oneself seemed truer to observation.

(I am quoting this one because I couldn't find the one that actually said figuring something out for self.)

I would think that the best PoLR hit would include a hit to the Hidden Agenda as well. Hence why the NeFi's are responding to Expat's Ti example.....it includes a HA "hit".

---

Mea wrote: Was that an attack on my role function (Se) ??

Expat: Perhaps it was more like a repression of your base function Ne.

Has anyone sat down and figured out just how a function attack would feel in the various Model A positions? (italicized and larger due to this being the main question of my post)

Example:
I'm ....fairly....um...unpopular...in my circle of interactions because of the sheer amount of possibilities I pop out. I get agitated when someone tries to "force" me to choose one without allowing me more information from which I can make a choice. However, if someone were to mention that I ...perhaps....missed a couple of rather obvious options, I'd somewhat withdraw into myself as I try to figure out how I'd overlooked those obvious options. And, depending on the situation, I can easily see myself beating myself up over missing those options.

However, for most of my life (up until I was about 26-28yo), I've heard phrases similar to Expat's example of Ti PoLR: "wait a moment, what you said right now totally contradicts what you said five minutes ago. You never make any sense, you go into all directions and then back in a totally chaotic way". These phrases would cause a withdrawal as I'd go through what I said "5 minutes ago" and what I said "now" to find out what the differences were. This would take time and lots of concentration as I felt my way around how I had felt "5 minutes ago" vs how I felt "now". Sometimes, I'd feel a torn feeling, when I'd come across a certain part, and upon reflection would realize that I had two (or more) contradicting thoughts on whatever was being talked about. Sometimes I wouldn't be able to see/feel how what I had said "5 minutes ago" was contradictory to what I had said "now". And sometimes I couldn't even see a difference between them, different paths to the same concept, maybe, but still the same concept.

My point? Irregardless of whether it's my base function or my polr function being "hit", the reaction is similar...withdrawal to figure out how to solve/avoid the problem presented.

About the only differences I can think of may come from the severity (intensity or length of time) of the withdraw reaction.
-----



btw, Jonathon, I hadn't known that Ecclesiastes was Solomon. I had just figured that whoever Ecclesiastes was was a drunkard. Like, someone who had (near the end of his life) lost hope and/or faith and thus turned to drinking. Finding out it's Solomon kind of puts a twist on things...I'll have to read more about Solomon though.

[Exodus]

Ti PoLR: "wait a moment, what you said right now totally contradicts what you said five minutes ago. You never make any sense, you go into all directions and then back in a totally chaotic way".

That's pretty accurate. However, it seems more directed towards irrational types.

Well, the two Ti PoLR types are irrational, and .

True. However, it seems to me that the content of an attack on someone's (weak) Ti should be the same for Role, or for wherever the function was in their Model A. Only their reaction to it would distinguish the function placement.

[Exodus]

Jonathon:

The Ti one makes sense, although the other person's Ti one about figuring stuff out by oneself seemed truer to observation.

(I am quoting this one because I couldn't find the one that actually said figuring something out for self.)

I would think that the best PoLR hit would include a hit to the Hidden Agenda as well. Hence why the NeFi's are responding to Expat's Ti example.....it includes a HA "hit".

This is a good point; when an Se type attacks my PoLR, he usually also attacks my Si > Se preference. For instance, someone might say to me,

"Sure you can sit around and theorize all day, but when it comes to getting work done you're a joke. Don't be so lazy."

That way they've attacked my Si (desire for comfort) and my Ne (abstract theorizing) at the same time as my PoLR.

Although calling it a "hit" may not be accurate. In this example the hit might have come from Expat's Te POV.

[krieger]

That is an interesting point. I was thinking about this the other day.

What puzzled me was, what could it possibly be that threatens ENTj's about the 'warm, fuzzy, comfort function' that is Si?

What came up was that the ENTj's with their Se HA, must at all times be a bit apprehensive about their physical presence, and their 'survival value', eg. 'how easy is it for people to take advantage of me?'.

Now when an Si person comes along and notices the ENTj's apprehension around his physique, their instinct would be to draw this to light in the completely wrong way. Instead of feeling grateful for having their difficulties recognized, the ENTj would see the 'Si' comment as an exposition; an invitation towards his surroundings to jump on his supposed 'weakness'.

I've been wondering how much merit this idea carries.

(as for the questions; Se polr is a dead horse, and I cannot for the life of me imagine getting hit by something called 'introverted feeling'.)

[XoX]

Now what is the difference? Do you have any personal experiences about these.

Edit: Added role hits there too.

[Expat]

Ah that's more interesting.

A PoLR agenda hit is more like -- "why is this person worrying about something so unimportant, why is this person even criticising me on that? They shouldn't. It's not important. I don't care about that, why do they want to make me care about that? Can they really care about that?"

A hidden agenda hit is more like "ok, they are right, I am not as good in that as I should be or would like to be, but they don't have to rub it in".

[Slacker]

I don't think something that gets at my hidden agenda is a "hit". I am confused by Ti, and if someone uses Ti arguments with me it can make me feel stupid, but then if someone turns around and explains whatever it is with Te, I'm happy because I can understand it and I no longer feel stupid.

[XoX]

I don't think something that gets at my hidden agenda is a "hit". I am confused by Ti, and if someone uses Ti arguments with me it can make me feel stupid, but then if someone turns around and explains whatever it is with Te, I'm happy because I can understand it and I no longer feel stupid.

How about when you actively use Te and someone criticizes how your effort sucks? You are only talking about a "passive" use of Hidden Agenda there. I assume you don't even try to actively use Ti which is a difference.

So let's try to rephrase.

When someone else uses your PoLR function it can make you feel inferior or you can get a "whatever, I don't care" feeling. So either you feel inferior or totally numb. Generally it is unlikely that you even seriously try to (pro)actively use your PoLR function.

When someone else uses your Hidden Agenda function it makes you feel good as you generally appreciate it. Occasionally you try to (pro)actively use your Hidden Agenda function too but in these cases criticism toward you is perceived as a "hit" in a way which can make you feel annoyed about your own incapability to use it.

When someone else uses your Role function it annoys you as you sense that the function has some social value but you would prefer that you don't have to use it. Occasionally you try to use the role function (pro)actively because of social pressure, when you perceive you "have to" but you feel ackward about it.

So..

PoLR: sense of inferiority or total numbness, only passive usage never (pro)active

HA: appreciation, occasional voluntary (pro)active usage, feeling of personal failure if your (pro)active usage of it is perceived as a failure (you accuse yourself more than you accuse the other people)

Role: depreciation, occasional forced (pro)active usage, feeling of annoyance towards other people who perceive you have failed in usage of it (here you are more likely to be annoyed at other people where in HA hit you are annoyed about yourself)

How would you make these definitions better?

[anndelise]

Note: please read the following with tongue in cheek....


Ti Polr = why am I being required to give this type of information? Why do I have to spell it out for you? Can't you get an impression/idea of what I'm talking about? The best I can do is try to point you into the direction to look, it takes too much out of me to even try to spell it out for you.

Te HA = You still want me to spell it out for you? Nevermind, it's not important enough for me to even try.
OR....
Ugh, fine, I'll do my best. Here are the objects, concepts, ideas that I'm referring to. Here is their arrangement. Now it should be easier for you to get an idea of they relate to each other.

Se Role = JFC, you STILL want me to spell it out for you? I put in all that work for you and you still wanna act like an a**??? Go find someone else to play your games with, I'm done!!!

[Blaze]

discuss.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

It depends. Polr is much more apparent as soon as you guys dig beneath the surface and get a glimpse of the 'real soul' behind the person's social mask. (I hope that makes sense) Role is probably much more noticeable in average social situations though. This is a good question, because most of us only know everybody we hang around with superficially- as it just takes up too much time and energy to get deep and intimate with everybody. I think there are types that naively BELIEVE they're being that way with a bunch of people, but they're really not.

For example have you ever noticed how cocky extroverts get if an introvert tells them something about themselves and they think they can then start defining that person for them? They kinda give that 'ah-ha' look like they think they got that person pegged when really, I can't comprehend my best friend of 10 years much of the time.

[Blaze]

It depends. Polr is much more apparent as soon as you guys dig beneath the surface and get a glimpse of the 'real soul' behind the person's social mask. (I hope that makes sense) Role is probably much more noticeable in average social situations though. This is a good question, because most of us only know everybody we hang around with superficially- as it just takes up too much time and energy to get deep and intimate with everybody. I think there are types that naively BELIEVE they're being that way with a bunch of people, but they're really not.

For example have you ever noticed how cocky extroverts get if an introvert tells them something about themselves and they think they can then start defining that person for them? They kinda give that 'ah-ha' look like they think they got that person pegged when really, I can't comprehend my best friend of 10 years much of the time.

yeah i agree i think. my younger daughter is an entp i think and her role function is much more readily apparant than her polr. but you do see the polr given enough exposure.

extraverts can be a pain for sure. we're so externally focused. that's why we need introverts...to kind of make us look inside a little more.

[Kristiina]

I think I don't notice either really. And I sometimes notice people trying to reduce how much their ego block shows. e.g Fe people trying to hide their emotional motives, or Ne types trying to hide that they don't like final decisions. But I don't notice Fe types trying to seem practical or Ne types trying to be categorical one-truth people.

[Expat]

I don't think that one is consistently easier to notice than the other.

[strrrng]

It depends on who is interacting with whom. An INFp's Te polr is easier to spot during interaction with an ENTj...

[dbmmama]

I think I don't notice either really. And I sometimes notice people trying to reduce how much their ego block shows. e.g Fe people trying to hide their emotional motives, or Ne types trying to hide that they don't like final decisions. But I don't notice Fe types trying to seem practical or Ne types trying to be categorical one-truth people.

Which type is the one that CAN see and identify those in others? That's what I meant when I said I can see what's missing...including what other's value but aren't fulfilling in their lives or is missing from their childhood and life experiences and choices.

love,
kj

[Creepy-bg]

It depends on who is interacting with whom. An INFp's Te polr is easier to spot during interaction with an ENTj...

ya... something like that. I think it depends on the type of the one looking and the type of the one being scrutinized. like maybe it's easier for somebody with a base {{anyfunction}} to notice the difference between somebody with {{anyfunction}} as a POLr and {{anyfunction}} as role. Or something along those lines

[Ezra]

I'm inclined to say Role. Take the LSI and the SLE. A lot of people know what Fi in an SLE looks like, but not many know what it looks like in the LSI. What they do see in the LSI is Ne PoLR; an unwillingness to consider the possibilities. I'd say the logic for this is that, basically, what we're weakest and strongest in shines through the most, and all the in between is more difficult to spot.

[Park]

e.g Fe people trying to hide their emotional motives,

Do they also hate it when you want (ask) them to be (verbally) straight about it?

[Blaze]

It depends on who is interacting with whom. An INFp's Te polr is easier to spot during interaction with an ENTj...

yeah. like maybe your identity partner can see your weaknesses crystal clear. kinda like takes one to know one.

it probably is type dependent....like i can see an LSI polr right away but then again i'm their supervisor. but i can see their role function, too. they're always trying to blend in socially, won't ever take any social risks.

[Logos]

I think it may be easier to spot the two working in conjunction with each other than strictly one versus the other.

[Kristiina]

Do they also hate it when you want (ask) them to be (verbally) straight about it?

yeah, if you tell them, "stop pretending it makes sense. You simply made that decision because you felt like it, so stop rationalizing!", then Fe types get upset.

[Joy]

Depends on what the information elements are to me.

[Blaze]

Depends on what the information elements are to me.

ok so what elements are most apparant to you? types? etc?

[Rubicon]

How would someone's reaction to being hit in their Polr differentiate from their reaction to having their role function criticised?

[Expat]

I think the PoLR leaves you more or less unsure of what to say, or annoyed that someone would even see it as important. The role makes you more concerned or defensive.

[Wynch]

When someone criticizes my role (Se) I honestly couldn't care less. I'm messy and lack self-discipline? Woah, big surprise. What a shocker.

Now when someone attacks my PoLR (Fi) it get's my back up because it's something I already feel helpless about.

My roles is something I more or less choose to ignore. Every once an a while I'll clean and organize and shape up, but then I stop caring again and it's gone. Fi, on the other hand, I have no power over, but I wish I was better with. It's like a giant gaping hole in my sense of reason that I can't fill no matter how hard I try.

[Joy]

I think that when someone criticizes your role you tend to wonder if they're right, or if you should at least give it more consideration than you were. You may feel irritated and/or frustrated at the same time.

If someone criticizes your PoLR, you feel helpless, like there's nothing more you could have done.

[Joy]

for me it would be making excuses or laziness, but it's the same idea

I don't worry about PoLR much these days though. I've found that it's much more of an issue when you're unhappy/internally conflicted than it needs to be.

[BLauritson]

The only time I can remember having a PoLR hit, as in a proper criticism by an ESE based on how I visibly wasn't enjoying myself at a work party (yes, she really is that shallow. Fortunately I know not all ESEs are like this), I misinterpreted it as an HA hit in the sense that I thought based on what she'd said that all my coworkers were angry with me and thus that I'd essentially damaged my relations with my coworkers. She didn't actually say this, but that was how I'd intepreted it. As a result I felt extremely guilty until the next day when I found out that, actually, my other coworkers weren't at all phased by how I was. At which point said guilt quickly disappeared, knowing that I hadn't at all damaged my relations with those I care about.

Since I'm not really sure what constitutes an actual "hit" as such, that's the only example I consider of me having had one. The only other instances I can think of (of which there have been a fair few over time) is when someone is visibly angry by something I've said or done, at which point I either feel intimidated by the person and worry I've unwittingly made an enemy of them, or, in one example when an EIE who hated me anyway basically twisted something I said and shouted at me for several minutes for it in front of all of my coworkers, I basically hold an eternal grudge against them and fantasise about their violent deaths until they are permanently removed from my life one way or another.

What I'm trying to get at with all of this is that if ever I'm criticised or otherwise cause trouble in matters relating to Fe, I worry about Fi. I genuinely couldn't care less about Fe for its own sake, perhaps because I'm confident enough in myself that it's not important for my own values and interests, even though it is important for those who do value it. If that makes any sense whatsoever. meh.

I'm not really sure how I respond to role hits...probably indifference. I dunno, I just get the feeling that the whole thing about the super-ego being some big evil poisoned dagger which constantly backstabs you at every opportunity is rather over-dramatised (yes, I'm aware of the irony of complaining it's over-dramatised despite having just written an overly dramatic description myself, so no cookie for pointing it out). I'm not saying it's insignificant, but I don't think it's as bad as it's made out to be. Says me who's rather paranoid about Fe and thus takes lots of steps to avoid any of the situations described above, much to the annoyance of Fi-valuers who notice this enough within me, but meh. I dunno.

[Brilliand]

What a PoLR hit is

A PoLR hit is not caused by someone using your PoLR function around you; it takes more than that. A PoLR hit occurs when someone claims that you are responsible for dealing with issues involving your PoLR. This may happen with a member of a side quadra who mistakes you for your supervisor, or a member of the opposing quadra who just thinks that you're being dumb. However, PoLR hits have little effect on a person who has accepted their weakness. If you can answer to a demand that you use your PoLR with essentially "I am not responsible for that" (or "I can't"), then the crisis is averted, and the issue simply becomes who is responsible for it.

Hidden Agenda Hits

On the other hand, many of the painful things that have been labeled PoLR hits are not in fact PoLR hits. For instance, when an Se ego frightens an Ne ego, the issue here is not Se. Se is not at stake here, and Ne probably isn't either, else the Infantile would be retaliating rather than cowering. What is at stake here is Si. Whereas a Caregiver would respond to the stress on Sensing by smoothing it out and perhaps getting a bit miffed, the Infantile finds that his superid is in trouble. If he's been lucky enough to notice his dual in the past, he may go looking for a Caregiver, or slightly less fortunately, try to make the Aggressor act like a Caregiver (which will certainly not be taken kindly). If he hasn't had the good fortune of noticing who has been taking care of him, or even that he has been taken care of, he may simply become insecure, and wonder why something he has always relied upon is suddenly missing.

All HA hits on static types will follow this pattern of the clumsy static functioning of the other person threatening the delicate balance of the first person's dynamic HA. Unlike a PoLR hit, which is best ignored or discussed detachedly, an HA hit must be cleaned up; and the HA itself is usually not capable of cleaning up after a strong function.

Dynamic-type HA hits

Dynamic types have static HAs, which can be just as painful, but in the opposite way. Let us take for example the HA of an Ni creative, that is Se - this function suffers most under the behavior of an Si dominant. Si, being a dynamic function, notices small variations in its subject matter, and prefers that it remain fluid, so as to easily influence it toward good variations and away from harmful variations. This close, detailed watch on the physical world, which in Si proves so beneficial to Infantiles, comes with a general fluidity, which has a nasty tendency to disrupt the stable state of (in the case of Si) Se. Thus the Hidden Agenda of the XIE is brought under threat, and the XIE seeks a way to clean it up - perhaps seeking an aggressor, perhaps pressuring the Si dominant to act as an aggressor, or perhaps lapsing into general insecurity due to knowing of no way to cope with the problem.

On the naming of the romance styles (tangent)

At this point, I note that the four romance styles are all named from the perspective of Si. The Caregivers (Si ego) are the people who make the present as it "should be" - fluid, and generally improving. The Infantiles (Si superid) are the people who want the present to be as it "should be," but can't set it to rights themselves - they want to be taken care of by their more capable duals. The aggressors (Si id) set the present as it shouldn't be - flaunting the detailed nature of the present, and forcing it into a mold. The Victims (Si superego) don't do much to the present directly, but mystifyingly, they seem to appreciate the behavior of the Aggressors.

These four titles - Caregiver, Infantile, Agressor and Victim - could actually be applied from the perspective of any element, based on whether that element is in the ego, superid, id or superego, respectively. (Therefore, I am a Caregiver in terms of Ti, and a Victim in terms of Fi.)

Application to all elements

Recall that Sensing, Intuition, Logic and Feeling each have both a Static and a Dynamic form, and each of these will clash in the same way that Si and Se are described above.

[Warlord]

Good thing that this finally has brought in attention. PoLR is more like a shield that protects HA from getting hurt, by keeping it in check. When you get really hurt, it's not the PoLR that gets hurt it's HA.

[Brilliand]

Good thing that this finally has brought in attention. PoLR is more like a shield that protects HA from getting hurt, by keeping it in check. When you get really hurt, it's not the PoLR that gets hurt it's HA.

A shield? Ah - you're thinking of the ILI emotion-suppressing. That's interesting; you seem to be looking at the PoLR function as something that suppresses the element placed in it. Can't say I've ever looked at it that way before - I always view the function as sharing its identity with the element.