PoLR vs Role vs Hidden Agenda

[Hugo]

Can someone give clear differences between hidden agenda and role function.

Thanks

[Joy]

As for as I know the Role Function is sorta like a switch we can flip on and off... we don't automatically use that function, but when we decide to we can. I think sometimes we use it to cover up for other weak functions just because it's easier to use than they are.

The hidden agenda is used to cover for one specific weak function, the POLR. In my experience, we can use our POLR function if our hidden agenda makes it safe for us. Someone wth a hidden agenda of Si may work out in order to be heathly, even though Se is their POLR. Having Fi as a POLR, I can use it as long as there's plenty of Fe going on. Fe makes me feel safe enough to use Fi.

Does anyone else find that their hidden agenda motivates their Role Function? Like, without their hidden agenda being fullfilled, they have no motivation to use their Role Function? How would being with your dual affect this?

[schrödinger's cat]

For those who (like myself) aren't very familiar with the Socionics terms:

role function - 3d function
PoLR (point of least resistance) - 4th function
hidden agenda - 6th function

Information on the ordering of functions for the different types can be found on www.socion.info or on this site. On this website, your PoLR is called "shyness" and your hidden agenda "estimative", and the function-attitudes themselves are represented by these symbols
Si Ni Fi Ti Se Ne Fe Te .

[science as magic]

In terms of one another? The hidden agenda is the release valve for the mold of the pressure exerted by the role function that "shapes" your interaction function. Like if you took some jello and put it in a mold and then later removed the mold after it had hardened and it plooped down and collapsed into a goeey mess because it was no longer held in shape by the mold.

[Gilly]

I think of Role Functions as being the natural role of an individual in a group situation. For example, an INFp with role might take the role of observing group dynamics and how people interact each other, which helps him use his and to come up with creative solutions for keeping the group emotionally healthy. An ENTp, on the other hand, has :se: as a role function, resulting in her taking a role in the development of group hierarchy, likely taking a lead role.

This is part of what causes conflict between Quasi-Identities: they have each others' Hidden Agendas as Role functions, so they become subconsciously jealous of each others' role within a group, manifesting itself in an outward expression of perceived disdain, which, although it may seem grounded in some case, is actually motivated by Hidden Agenda "starvation."

[Ave]

I think of Role Functions as being the natural role of an individual in a group situation. For example, an INFp with role might take the role of observing group dynamics and how people interact each other, which helps him use his and to come up with creative solutions for keeping the group emotionally healthy. An ENTp, on the other hand, has :se: as a role function, resulting in her taking a role in the development of group hierarchy, likely taking a lead role.

This is part of what causes conflict between Quasi-Identities: they have each others' Hidden Agendas as Role functions, so they become subconsciously jealous of each others' role within a group, manifesting itself in an outward expression of perceived disdain, which, although it may seem grounded in some case, is actually motivated by Hidden Agenda "starvation."

Interesting idea. Im wondering, though if the role function is an actual role one plays in the eyes of others, or if others who have it as a strong function can see through it. I can see through my mom'e ENFJ friends's as being pretty sloppy, for example.

I have an interesting anecdote in regards to your theory about a girl in my class who was INTJ and how we sort of felt jealous towards each other. Well maybe "jealous" isnt really the word but it was like her role of being able to connect one on one with people, especially the girl I liked, kinda made me wish I had her ability to do the same. Whereas my ability to stay relatively healthy and "go outside with my hair wet when sick" seemed to really piss her off.

[Gilly]

That sounds conceptually similar to the conflict I have in social situations with my ENTj friend. She seems to command alot of the emotionally directed attention of the group just because she tends to attract drama, while I, on the other hand, have more of a leader/controller role in terms of steering the group towards an activity or point of view, and I have both observed, and will admit, that there is an element of jealousy from both sides.

[XoX]

Both can cause suffering in a way. How do you know which one is causing you pain?

Take for example ESTp with Fi PoLR and Fe hidden agenda. If people feel negatively and criticize them for their behavior doesn't it hit both at the same time? How can you hit only one of them? Are PoLR and hidden agenda somehow connected?

[Joy]

We like to think we're good at whatever our hidden agenda is. We resent being expected to use our PoLR function. We don't think we should have to.

[Ave]

I've been confused about this myself...I've always understood it like this: both are very weak, but the hidden agenda thinks its strong and is not afraid of critcism while the polr knows its weak and is.

[Joy]

The hidden agenda hates criticism. It likes to believe it's strong.

[Expat]

We like to think we're good at whatever our hidden agenda is. We resent being expected to use our PoLR function. We don't think we should have to.

I think that's a good way of putting it.

[Joy]

How does it feel when someone hits your Role vs. how it feels when they hit your PoLR?

[pezzonovante]

I'll give this one a shot.

I took a PoLR hit today, I just thought "fuccckkkkkk" to myself and didn't talk for a while. I notice that when I take a PoLR hit I can never really respond to it well. Usually with other types of criticism I will either deflect it with a joke or turn it around and hit them back.

As far as a Role hit, I can't really think of a time when someone hit my role. My third function is stronger than usual because I am a subtype, this may or may not have something to do with it. Give me an example of a hit and I'll tell you how I felt.

[Smilingeyes]

Give me an example of a hit and I'll tell you how I felt.

*an attempt at a Fe-hit follows*

Sorry, but nobody cares about what you ask because you're not part of the group. You can't just barge into a thread about types and try to turn it into all about you. You have to give something before you expect you can make others do something for you. It's obvious that you didn't care about what Joy asked for so nobody cares about you either.

[FDG]

Role hit is rare indeed, and not particularly unpleasant, since it seems to lead to actions aimed at improving the situation, and not the opposite. Thus, I'd say that the role function is something that, when hit, can be recognized as a problem, and the person can do something about it.

My PoLR has been hit with not particularly high frequency. More than the usual "you are unreliable" stuff, which isn't said to me that often, I get told that I am excessively private about my relationships with other people. Truth to be told, it's not that I am excessively private: I just don't have a clue about what they are. So, I'd say that a PoLR hit is something that we have to take and swallow without being able to do something to better the situation.

[XoX]

Sorry, but nobody cares about what you ask because you're not part of the group. You can't just barge into a thread about types and try to turn it into all about you. You have to give something before you expect you can make others do something for you. It's obvious that you didn't care about what Joy asked for so nobody cares about you either.

That was an attempt at a Fe-hit btw, not a real opinion.

Lol, I was really confused about where that opinion came from It is good I read this whole thread before answering I wonder if it hit MY role or PoLR too Because I do that kind of stuff all the time it is almost like indirectly aimed at me. Made me really feel like "Damn, am I doing something wrong? Should I change something? Or is smilex just overly judging and I shouldn't even care about this kind of criticism?".

And about the actual subject, I'm not sure because I don't know my exact type What I have been wondering, however, is how much subtype affects Role and PoLR. E.g. would INFp intuitive sub behave like Si is their PoLR and Te is their role. Sort of like an ENFj with IP temperament. And so on.

[snegledmaca]

I don't think I've had my role or polr hit. Actually, what would constitute a polr or role hit, how would one know, recognize their polr or role had been hit?

[cracka]

oooh oooh, i wanna be hit too...someone gimme a PoLR hit...lol

haha, i don't really know what it would be, but if it's something that a person does or says that makes me want to actually rip their head off I probably already know what it is.

[Exodus]

Remind me again what a Ti hit would be like? Someone explained it last time you asked this question, but I forgot what they said.

Can't you figure it out yourself? You're always relying on other people's judgment. Think for yourself for once.

oooh oooh, i wanna be hit too...someone gimme a PoLR hit...lol

Are you sure about this? I don't think you've carefully considered what would happen in such a circumstance--It could have many unintended consequences.


hehehe. Don't kill me.

[Joy]

As far as a Role hit, I can't really think of a time when someone hit my role. My third function is stronger than usual because I am a subtype, this may or may not have something to do with it. Give me an example of a hit and I'll tell you how I felt.

The best examples of what it's like for me that I can come up with are how I feel when people try to stick me in gender roles. For example, a therapist told me that I have "gender role reversal" issues because I want a stay at home spouse, and I got super pissed off and never went back. Who is she to tell me what my role ought to be?

[Mea]

Umm, I have no idea what a hit is like directed at my role function.
Does it work like when someone tries to control an ENFp? Like ordering them around and stuff?
Well, when that happens it gets me really mad. I'll have no problems confronting that person, and I don't think I'll sound very nice. LOL!

[UDP]

polr hit is a great motivation, as far as I'm concerned. It does not feel good, but I've learned to appreciate it rather than anything else. Se polr hits usually occur in two kinds -- one's that I don't care about because certain people perceive Se in certain ways, and have different values than I do.

Other ones burn more obviously. Competence and value, having meaning is important.

They are less devistating than they used to be, though, because I've refined my views more to look at Se. I was actually considering being an LSI recently, . But that whole process in general helped position things. It made my stronger, and made me more conscious about , so it worked out well.

[mustachio]

i've gotten my PoLR hit so many times it hurts talking about it. i'm just not good with feelings. if i do share my feelings with somebody then it's because i fully trust them. otherwise, i can be very insecure. but my insecurity only manifests itself with people i care about. i always wonder if i can truly trust them. like i'm in a spy game or something and they're out to get me. a PoLR hit can seem paralysing. a Fi hit can seem like paranoia. it's like a deep wound that never fully heals. "the first cut is the deepest".

a role hit? hmm, that's kind of obscure to me. mine would be Ne=intuition of potentialities. i think you can still defend yourself but you can't really understand the situation, or perhaps, what the other person is talking about. it's like the edge of your mind, the extent of your intelligence. anything beyond is a black hole. so you stand firmly by your base function seeing as it makes more sense. or you try to relate the foreign concept to you ego block which is no small feat. i dunno, does this make sense to any of you?

[Mea]

i've gotten my PoLR hit so many times it hurts talking about it. i'm just not good with feelings. if i do share my feelings with somebody then it's because i fully trust them. otherwise, i can be very insecure. but my insecurity only manifests itself with people i care about. i always wonder if i can truly trust them. like i'm in a spy game or something and they're out to get me. a PoLR hit can seem paralysing. a Fi hit can seem like paranoia. it's like a deep wound that never fully heals. "the first cut is the deepest".

a role hit? hmm, that's kind of obscure to me. mine would be Ne=intuition of potentialities. i think you can still defend yourself but you can't really understand the situation, or perhaps, what the other person is talking about. it's like the edge of your mind, the extent of your intelligence. anything beyond is a black hole. so you stand firmly by your base function seeing as it makes more sense. or you try to relate the foreign concept to you ego block which is no small feat. i dunno, does this make sense to any of you?

You sure you have a Fi PoLR?

[maze]

i've gotten my PoLR hit so many times it hurts talking about it. i'm just not good with feelings. if i do share my feelings with somebody then it's because i fully trust them. otherwise, i can be very insecure. but my insecurity only manifests itself with people i care about. i always wonder if i can truly trust them. like i'm in a spy game or something and they're out to get me. a PoLR hit can seem paralysing. a Fi hit can seem like paranoia. it's like a deep wound that never fully heals. "the first cut is the deepest".

Herzy wrote something similar to this experience too. I've read something about SLE's expecting dirty tricks from others. A teacher I worked with was ready to bring war upon the person who sent her crappy books. She figured she got the bad end of the selection on purpose, because she isn't liked. (she's the union rep.) I told her she doesn't know that. Maybe the selection was random? She calmed down and thanked me for the reassurance I provided. She still tracked down the person who sent out the books and questioned her motives. lol But it was done in a much more diplomatic fashion.

a role hit? hmm, that's kind of obscure to me. mine would be Ne=intuition of potentialities. i think you can still defend yourself but you can't really understand the situation, or perhaps, what the other person is talking about. it's like the edge of your mind, the extent of your intelligence. anything beyond is a black hole. so you stand firmly by your base function seeing as it makes more sense. or you try to relate the foreign concept to you ego block which is no small feat. i dunno, does this make sense to any of you?

It makes sense in my case as well. Whenever I feel Si information is being asked of me, I feel like a retard.

*I don't know if so and so looks thinner, and if I'm asked if I think so and so lost weight, I draw an uncomfortable blank.
*I get a sense that people are always watching the internal needs of others and since I'm usually in Ni la-la-land, I feel like a selfish-insensitive person for not noticing that...the plant is drying out.
*I'm not comfortable brainstorming about the best solution for attaining....water. Just....whatever the other person wants is fine with me.
*I don't like to be in discussions that deal with problem solving everyday survival stuff. I always feel like it's trivial-talk that removes me from my thoughts.

[pezzonovante]

Sorry, but nobody cares about what you ask because you're not part of the group. You can't just barge into a thread about types and try to turn it into all about you. You have to give something before you expect you can make others do something for you. It's obvious that you didn't care about what Joy asked for so nobody cares about you either.

When I first read this I really did feel the role hit. I took instant offense to it and prepared to respond to it in a way that would even the score. But it was much different than a PoLR hit, much less severe. After a PoLR hit I feel almost depressed, while as after the Role hit I just felt offended. However getting a Role hit IRL will probably be somewhat more severe.

Great idea BTW.

[flower]

Yeah, I think when your polr is hit you feel depressed when you reflect on it, it makes you feel inadequate and worthless. As someone before said, it can however turn into a great motivator as you see it as a path to becoming a more complete person.

Im not sure about role function, I think its usually taking in good spirit or a positive critisism though.

[snegledmaca]

Sorry, but nobody cares about what you ask because you're not part of the group. You can't just barge into a thread about types and try to turn it into all about you. You have to give something before you expect you can make others do something for you. It's obvious that you didn't care about what Joy asked for so nobody cares about you either.

When I first read this I really did feel the role hit. I took instant offense to it and prepared to respond to it in a way that would even the score. But it was much different than a PoLR hit, much less severe. After a PoLR hit I feel almost depressed, while as after the Role hit I just felt offended. However getting a Role hit IRL will probably be somewhat more severe.

I doubt that had anything to do with your Role. My first reaction was the same as yours. I'd call getting insulted by that comment a normal reaction, and *not* getting insulted as perhaps an indicator of something.

Yeah, I think when your polr is hit you feel depressed when you reflect on it, it makes you feel inadequate and worthless.

In that case my PoLR has to do with relationships.

[Smilingeyes]

I doubt that had anything to do with your Role. My first reaction was the same as yours. I'd call getting insulted by that comment a normal reaction, and *not* getting insulted as perhaps an indicator of something.

Yeah, I think when your polr is hit you feel depressed when you reflect on it, it makes you feel inadequate and worthless.

In that case my PoLR has to do with relationships.

Sneg, you're reading it wrong. No matter what function you use to hit someone it's always generally insulting. The reaction is just different when you're hit with something that targets your ego functions vs. non-ego functions. You're defensive which fits an ego function hit, pezzo got angry at first then nulled the comment, neither of you got the feeling of a PoLR hit from that. There was some discussion a long time back about creating good insults against different functions. None of them were nice but most of them didn't feel like they really hurt.

[Kristiina]

Maybe it's PoLR hit when someone would tell me - It's great that you dream about being a scientist. And that you're not discouraged by bad grades or that the odds of being paid a decent salary are so small. That's so great, I'm happy for you. <--that's the ISFp way of hitting my PoLR and reminding me that despite all my dreams I'm still just a nobody. ISTp would also try to be practical and advise me of the small odds that my plan of life would ever succeed... Makes me feel bad and worthless either way. It's not like I can even argue with that - they are right. I'm just a nobody with dreams. Reaction - smile and nod, keep telling myself that all I need is faith that I will succeed. (which sounds totally depressing - building a life upon faith.).

I have a hard time seeing the difference between role hit and critics in my field. I just know this - I feel absolutely emotionally shattered for a moment when someone tells me, "I don't care how things generally are - tell me what it was exactly." and "This is totally untrue! Actually it is <paraphrase of what I just said>". Kinda makes me die inside a little.

[Smilingeyes]

Hmm, it appears Transigent killed his "Function insults" thread.
And Slava's PoLR insult generator -program is not available anymore either. So I guess there's actually a need for new insults if someone wants to test his PoLR.

[snegledmaca]

Sneg, you're reading it wrong. No matter what function you use to hit someone it's always generally insulting. The reaction is just different when you're hit with something that targets your ego functions vs. non-ego functions. You're defensive which fits an ego function hit, pezzo got angry at first then nulled the comment, neither of you got the feeling of a PoLR hit from that. There was some discussion a long time back about creating good insults against different functions. None of them were nice but most of them didn't feel like they really hurt.

How was I being defensive?

[Smilingeyes]

How was I being defensive?

Sorry, that's a catch-22, because asking that is itself defensive.

[snegledmaca]

How was I being defensive?

Sorry, that's a catch-22, because asking that is itself defensive.

Hmm, I guess you're right about that. The thing is that I'm kind of surprised by that assessment cause I was pointing towards people getting carried away in talking about their "imaginary friends" and using them to explain things instead of using more realistic explanations.

[Jonathan]

Maybe it's PoLR hit when someone would tell me - It's great that you dream about being a scientist. And that you're not discouraged by bad grades or that the odds of being paid a decent salary are so small. That's so great, I'm happy for you. <--that's the ISFp way of hitting my PoLR and reminding me that despite all my dreams I'm still just a nobody. ISTp would also try to be practical and advise me of the small odds that my plan of life would ever succeed... Makes me feel bad and worthless either way. It's not like I can even argue with that - they are right. I'm just a nobody with dreams. Reaction - smile and nod, keep telling myself that all I need is faith that I will succeed. (which sounds totally depressing - building a life upon faith.).

I would hate, hate, hate is someone did that to me. What an underhanded passive-aggressive way of tearing someone down!

The thing I don't get though is that if these are accurate, they should only be effective against opposing quadras. Surely, an Alpha or Delta N person should have just as much of a problem with these kinds of attacks as any other N person, right? After all, Ne types are supposed to be dreamers as much as Ni types.

Really, though, do you think an ISFp would really say something like that? I may have a limited idea of ISFps, but my impression is that they don't usually try to start a conflict.

[cracka]

ok, someone tell me if this would be someone hitting my PoLR... It happened a few years ago...

I'm at work. I'm the area coordinator and pretty much let people know what needs to be done. I don't usually order people around but in this case the guy I was talking to was a very lazy bastard and I confronted him on it.
So I told him, dude, you need to start working on the same level with the rest of us, way too much of your weight is being carried by everyone else.
his response was, who the fuck are you to give me orders, to which I replied, I'm the AC and it's on me if shit doesn't get done.
Then he looks at me and tells me that I don't mean anything and that I'm on the same level with him and I can't tell him what HE needs to do. He said, You ain't shit here, even if you think you are... and then a few insults etc before I slammed him up against a wall... (at work, this type of outburst had never happened before and won't ever happen again, if it were anyone else I would have been fired)
I'd never ever been as pissed as I was when he pretty much said that I really didn't mean anything to my area like I thought I did...
Just wondering if this was a case of someone hitting my PoLR? if not, I really do want someone to give me an example...lol I swear I won't kill or hit anyone... not even an E-Pimpslap online...

[Mea]

ok, someone tell me if this would be someone hitting my PoLR... It happened a few years ago...

I'm at work. I'm the area coordinator and pretty much let people know what needs to be done. I don't usually order people around but in this case the guy I was talking to was a very lazy bastard and I confronted him on it.
So I told him, dude, you need to start working on the same level with the rest of us, way too much of your weight is being carried by everyone else.
his response was, who the fuck are you to give me orders, to which I replied, I'm the AC and it's on me if shit doesn't get done.
Then he looks at me and tells me that I don't mean anything and that I'm on the same level with him and I can't tell him what HE needs to do. He said, You ain't shit here, even if you think you are... and then a few insults etc before I slammed him up against a wall... (at work, this type of outburst had never happened before and won't ever happen again, if it were anyone else I would have been fired)
I'd never ever been as pissed as I was when he pretty much said that I really didn't mean anything to my area like I thought I did...
Just wondering if this was a case of someone hitting my PoLR? if not, I really do want someone to give me an example...lol I swear I won't kill or hit anyone... not even an E-Pimpslap online...

Well, maybe you were hitting HIS PoLR . But seriously, those words he said, would've pissed me off too. He sounded rude. Not hitting your PoLR IMO, but I'm not sure.

[cracka]

ok, someone tell me if this would be someone hitting my PoLR... It happened a few years ago...

I'm at work. I'm the area coordinator and pretty much let people know what needs to be done. I don't usually order people around but in this case the guy I was talking to was a very lazy bastard and I confronted him on it.
So I told him, dude, you need to start working on the same level with the rest of us, way too much of your weight is being carried by everyone else.
his response was, who the fuck are you to give me orders, to which I replied, I'm the AC and it's on me if shit doesn't get done.
Then he looks at me and tells me that I don't mean anything and that I'm on the same level with him and I can't tell him what HE needs to do. He said, You ain't shit here, even if you think you are... and then a few insults etc before I slammed him up against a wall... (at work, this type of outburst had never happened before and won't ever happen again, if it were anyone else I would have been fired)
I'd never ever been as pissed as I was when he pretty much said that I really didn't mean anything to my area like I thought I did...
Just wondering if this was a case of someone hitting my PoLR? if not, I really do want someone to give me an example...lol I swear I won't kill or hit anyone... not even an E-Pimpslap online...

Well, maybe you were hitting HIS PoLR . But seriously, those words he said, would've pissed me off too. He sounded rude. Not hitting your PoLR IMO, but I'm not sure.

I was just thinking of something that made me really really mad from my past...lol So, what would be someone hitting my PoLR?

[Joy]

A couple days ago I was talking to my boss about real estate investing, and he was talking about how prices are going to drop in our area... I didn't disagree, and told him that I had some other areas in mind... I started mentioning a few of them, and for every single area he had some warning, a reason not to invest there (generally something sorta silly, from my perspective). Then he started talking about how you have to be careful with "funny" financing, because if you don't have equity in the property you can find yourself upside down and in a lot of trouble... and I reminded him that I'm watching market cycles and investing based on that, and besides, there will be equity in the properties. He said something about having the capital... to which I replied that I didn't need the capital because I had a partner who would be coming up with the 20% down payment, then he was like, "You know what you gotta watch for with partners? They'll want you to take all of the liability and be personally responsible for the debt..." and on and on and on... and I answered each of his concerns on every point and was about to say, "There's no such thing as the perfect investment. You just have to manage risk by doing your homework.... " and so on, when I remembered why I ever stopped talking to him about investments in the first place.

Silly ESFjs.