What is the differences between a dualized SLE/LSI/EIE/IEI & a SLE/LSI/EIE/IEI who is not dualized?
What is the differences between a dualized SLE/LSI/EIE/IEI & a SLE/LSI/EIE/IEI who is not dualized?
IEI, sp/sx 4w3.
What's difference between having a notion of the meaning of life, and experiencing the meaning of life.
STs: more empathetic, generous, caring; seem more "human"
NFs: more stable, driven, less moody; have a sense of direction
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
"What is love?"
"The total absence of fear," said the Master.
"What is it we fear?"
"Love," said the Master.
I chose Love
Are we defining dualization as just 'having a dual around' or does it have to be a romantic dual relationship?
What I mean is, does the fact that my father is LSI and my best friend is LSI make me a 'dualized' individual?
()
3w4-1w2-5w4 sx/sp
"What is love?"
"The total absence of fear," said the Master.
"What is it we fear?"
"Love," said the Master.
I chose Love
McBain has been flushing too many spiders down his holes.
The difference between a dualized and a non-dualized Beta must look kinda like the difference between Silke and Aylen. Or between Strrrng and BnD/crazedrat.
Last edited by Amber; 05-03-2015 at 05:27 PM.
i don't know whether there are really perceivable differences .. for me duality is a pretty invisible thing. internally i feel calmer, more confident, happier being myself, less anxious too, the feeling of 'perfect' moments (perfectly located in time and space, there is no one else where i want to be) but on the outside i'm pretty much the same, i think.
but then again, the closest i come to duality are a few very close interactions in a semi-work environment (not impersonal, though) in the past year in time periods of max. 1-2 weeks each (and then being separated for a long time). not sure how long it takes or what it needs until you see the 'results' of duality (like: "this IEI is actually productive", or something).
what really throws me off course is when we're separated. after i said goodbye to the SLE last time i was perfectly fine for two days. then my mood suddenly drops and i have to force myself out of bed for weeks. and the pain that something very important is missing.. like a pendulum swinging to the other extreme. :/
Last edited by lynn; 06-01-2015 at 06:47 PM.
IEE... but yeah, I agree. I think dualization implicitly has something to do with how naturally and fluidly one already is oriented toward their superid functions. without this, you're likely to get a more polarized experience, i.e. very relaxing but depressed after.
I talk to an SLE once every two weeks or so and it's always very natural and pleasant, and I've never experienced withdrawal. it's always the day after that I feel extremely Se, just disparately spanned across my environment in a kind of self-contained, surreal realm. Se is cool.
4w3-5w6-8w7
Lol hmm I'm comparing this to the vacation I had with an EIE girl. I don't really want to say that it was that terribly strictly organized and planned out in much much detail as described here but yes pretty much it was organized by me. There was still some spontaneity though I would say that's also needed with such things.
Interesting viewpoint there. Does make sense considering my experiences.I think the way it works is that I get really bored easily and I something that I can pour out my emotional energy at/into. Without my dual, I have all this excess to get rid of, almost, and so, in short, I go a little crazy/wild. On the other hand, when I am with my dual, I'm much more content to just stay at home and basically throw all my emotional energy at them, after which, I am nice and calm and they go from robot to human (I'm just joking...right?) And they keep their lives so structured and 'on-track' that it's so easy just to fall back on their structures when my own flimsy self-imposed ones collapse, as they routinely and inevitably do, giving way to my moods/whimsies etc.
Yeah, that's a good way to describe that withdrawal thingie.
Heh, I also noticed this lately with my EIE friends. I temporarily feel more Fe after meeting them. That happens with a slight delay, so like, next day, yeah. It wasn't like this until recently. I'm not sure if it can also mix with the withdrawal thingie? And not sure why I'd experience this change? I'm curious if others here ever experienced anything like this. ?I talk to an SLE once every two weeks or so and it's always very natural and pleasant, and I've never experienced withdrawal. it's always the day after that I feel extremely Se, just disparately spanned across my environment in a kind of self-contained, surreal realm. Se is cool.
Full disclosure, as a couple of you know, I have had a dual friend living with me for a little while now because I owed them that. They have been a tremendous help in dealing with things around my house that I was clueless and/or lacked motivation to do. This frees me up from stressing over stuff I have no inclination to do so my comment about being lazy was more facetious than anything, although socionics is far from a serious matter in my perception.
But yeah one can become dependent on that but there is a certain need for healthy interdependence for someone like me. I have fought hard to be independent but when all is said and done, I can't do it all alone. They allow me to focus on things I would rather be doing like getting my computers organized and my home network running smoothly. I am not going to give them all the credit for my newfound motivation but I am sure it is an influence. Some of my "duals" on this forum have been equally motivating privately in different areas of my life.
The only reason I can see for feeling withdrawal from someone is that it is a romantic situation? Yeah I have had that happen with a couple different types so I don't think it is just a dual thing.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
I experienced this brand of feeling of withdrawal outside romantic situations. I have EIE friends/acquaintances who I didn't meet for a while and I started feeling this. Also, last year I was talking to / meeting with an EIE guy for a while.. and I remember that afterwards, going home I actually felt a slight withdrawal thingie even tho' it wasn't really a romantic situation. Well sure he was into me pretty quickly but I wasn't.. I wasn't going much beyond just being friends. Yet, the communication and just being together was so good and then I got this feeling afterwards.
But overall, I don't really think I'm dualized much, I see this process as requiring more than just spending time sometimes with duals. Needs more time, more depth of communication, maybe more self-awareness too. I don't know.
sadly, i think it's very easy to become dependent on a dual. for me it's not about the part doing stuff for me, or something like that, (i have other people to help me ) but i'm dependent on the Se source of energy (together with Ti; SEE's can't help me with this at all) to feel less disembodied and actually leave my house without feeling that life's demands are to heavy on me. (i fall easily into long phases of inactivity where i feel lifeless and disconnected from the physical world or anything.) with a SLE around, or with the right ISTj together with a very vibrant ENFj, everything feel's fine for a moment ...
I know Words is banned now but in case anyone else would ever get confused like him, I would like to point out that duality/a dual is a much more specific concept than simply being adapted or a special friend/partner and that's what gives the concept its value, it's about more than just generic talk about how it's good to be adapted and whatever. Of course that's also working with the assumption that it's a concept that is anchored to reality but IMO it is
Honestly your examples of being needy and lazy don't really sound as such to me. Why not delegate tasks that you are less efficient about doing, to other people if they are willing to do it? Then you can focus on what you're really good at and improve in that. And I suppose if you really need to solve such issues on your own later when your duals aren't around (hopefully only temporarily ), you can still figure it out if you must. Practicing a few specific tasks wasting much time when you could've had a dual sort it out within minutes will not make your superid much better anyway as those functions are not high dimensional information processing, meaning the practice you get, if you even learn something from trying so hard, will not readily be transferred to new types of situations. Especially true of DS function, HA not as much but somewhat applies to HA as well. This is the idea in theory and I find it does line up with reality but I'll add my own observation about that; if you already understand where your weaknesses lie in a cognitive sense, you can make yourself switch your mindset and focus on these elements of information processing sometimes when you need to and that is helpful more than just practicing tasks blindly.
Also, looks like your SLE friend understands how not to let you get overly lazy anyway. So I don't know how common that is with duals but that's very cool and it means duality doesn't have to result in that sort of bad laziness that you originally meant. I also relate to this myself, when helping EIEs, btw.
Hmm I guess it depends on the person too but I don't think I ever had a problem with trying to supply too much Ti to my duals. I think it kinda is natural for me to see when they need it and if not then I don't try to interfere. Like, why would I do that if I believe my dual is intelligent enough to figure out a hard task that they seem to be enjoying. The only exception so far was when one of my friends got into a very stressful life situation and she truly seemed helpless at figuring things out, then I'm sure I got a bit too interfering and she consequently became a bit overly reliant on me which I noticed quickly so then we were able to communicate that issue to each other so it was OK in the end. I'm not going to say it was not flattering in a sense that I was needed so much but I thought it was not good for her to be over-reliant like that. Really it was just her stressful situation clouding my judgment a bit too because I was involuntarily feeling too involved. I read somewhere in some article about stages of duality that duality can get into this stage - after duality already deepened a lot - where one dual in very bad stress can completely pull in the other one too. I would like to think that I can resist that if I recognize it in time, though
How do you think power dynamics are different between SLE/IEI vs LSI/IEI?
Btw, doing the taxes is fucking boring, trust me, lol. And bills, uh, keep that shit simple within a neat system.
Oh how does the Ti matter, why doesn't it work with SEEs? And what is it about LSI/EIE being around helping you, how?
How could you marry an ESE as an IEI Type 4? Surely, there must have been factors I don't know of (yet), but I know for myself as a fellow IEI Type 4 that it would be very unlikely for me to marry an ESE – dare I say close to impossible. Maybe it is partly you being Fe subtype that changes the dynamic for the better?
Last edited by Myst; 05-29-2015 at 01:49 PM.
I am going through an amazing dual communication at the moment and thoughts like this make me smile. This relationship (if I can call it as such because we are not really committed in a usual societal understanding) is something really outstanding that we both have never experienced before.
I think that EIE/LSI as a rational entity presents a certain necessity to know where they both stand before switching their roles. The SLE/IEI dynamics is different since we don’t have this need to feel “equal” or to blur the lines. Our way of dealing with each other is quite gender marked (something that you may have associated with that caveman thing). I do enjoy the feeling being a fragile little thing and he totally enjoys to be the rock I can rely on. Our conversations are very fluid, both being quite closed/guarded in a different way, we are extremely sincere and open between us. We can also be extremely teasing but somehow none of us feels bad about it, I feel like I don't wreck him in his insecurities (he is really very very guarded).
In 24 hours I took 0 decisions and that was heaven. It made me feel totally energized and I talked more than I usually do. He on the other hand does need to take the lead but I have a kind of calming even balancing influence on him.
That's what Starfall called the worthy opponent I guess. Personally the only time I was completely heels over head (and still am) was about this guy who is very assertive and intimidating to some point. His confidence made me push my personal boundaries and I came into close to a make over (and this is something he will never know because I will be silent as grave about it, but unconciously he helped me a lot with my low self esteem). I need to admire the person to go further, fighting can be good at times to win the prize (and I will be that prize) but constant challenge and competition can be exhausting.
Interesting... I can relate to that in some way. I like this kind of dynamic in the beginning of a relationship, when both people engage in some sort of dance, and the other is sometimes close to "getting" me, but then I draw back again. Once the relationship is established, there may be some power struggles initially, but eventually I can see myself giving in at the end. Overall, it would not be a long drawn out battle, but more like a few battles in bursts for establishing greater tension, so that the accompanying release is more satisfying.
Jesus L. Pancake, you're reminding me of the year-plus I spent "dating" an EIE man. I want to win but I don't really want to win, and I want to lose but I don't really want to lose, and every time you turn around you're going to be chasing me just because that's so fun for us. Isn't it? Of course it is. Look at me look at me look at me look at me I'm so clever clever clever clever clever. And at one point the relationship came down to him literally saying, "It seems like we're always competing for the same attention from people." And then when I finally dumped him for someone else, "I want to marry you." Ugh. So glad I'm not an LSI. (I mean, in retrospect he just needed his ass handed to him.)
Look at all the bad memories you've evoked, McB!!!!!!!
I'm probably the total rain on the parade shithead here, but the whole beta dualism idealism has always struck me as terrible naive and brain dead. While I understand being attracted to people opposite in certain strength to you and who you feel comfortable at close distance with, as I'm also turned on by Se and Ti (....and even Ne is terribly sexy to me- what does that mean?????), I feel the more people you've been intimate with and in relationships with, the more you notice other compatibilities are much more important. Maybe these things wouldn't bother me as much, if it wasn't for the annoying semi-masochistic occult posts of people who can barely survive without their duals. I mean, please, get a fucking grip and some self confidence. Love your SO for the person he/she is, not what he/she can give you or ways he can make you more functional in the world. These cheesy contrived socionics inter-type relationships are just nauseating.
If you're IEI in love with SLE just say you're in love with how he makes you feel and what a great person he is, kind of more natural than reading from the Augusta manual.
I get what you mean and I don't occult or idealize socionics in any way whatsoever. Actually I met (and liked) the guy long ago before knowing what the world typology even mean. He happens to be an SLE but even if he was any type I'd go for it because some things are just amazing without trying to make them fit into a manual.
I swear I didn't mean anyone specific and wasn't even annoyed by the personal stories in this thread - I'm very happy for anyone who's in a great dual relationship and get how it could work and make you feel completed when people are compatible - even when chemistry is right, dating people too similar to yourself is usually bad for self-development and seldom works long-term.
My irritation is targeted at the internet phenomenon of people who go strictly for their socionics duals and claim that their duals and only their duals are the ones that can make them happy. That's when it becomes naive and removed from reality. And these delusional people are for some odd reason predominantly certain IEI's, who praise the mighty SLE like a bizzare cult. Seems like an unhealthy fetishization (not to mention ass-kissing ).
No, why ? This has always been my opinion on over -idealized duality in general, it just seems to be more pronounced in Beta quadra. It's not targeted on any specific people that have posted in this thread, just something that has always bothered me with socionics - this naivete about intertype relationships that just doesn't hold water irl - i mean, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, but certainly not enough times to write that many articles about. I've seen many duality relationships play out, and while they may have lasted and were even great relationships, they weren't any different from others as far as I could tell
I do very much enjoy various forms of fighting with certain EIEs I've known, that's with the ones that are the more provocative and energetic type and with the ones that are more submissive victimy I just enjoy being in charge though it's really for the good of both of us because I do care about the person. It's hard to say which version is more enjoyable for me, heh. For the former, I do like it when they do give in though. I also like it when they sometimes don't so it's all good. But for me the whole topic of dominance/submission/equality goes much beyond just simple competitive aspects when it's explicitly a romantic relationship. Maybe I'll put my thoughts on all of it together one day.
OK well you are saying in your later post that you didn't mean anyone specifically here but then what's the rain on the parade about. Anyway I don't mind your opinion, don't get me wrong
I do agree very much about loving your friend or SO for the person they are. I don't really care for duality in terms of it making me more "functional" or what. To me it's not about that, at all.
I think I also already made the distinction that duality is one factor between many other factors. I do find it an important factor for a good close relationship, though. Or other compatible intertype relations can also be good, sure. That all is a bit more complex than I can say it in just one line and probably also dependent on the specific types. It's also dependent on what we mean by "good close relationship".
Why do you call it naivete when it's based in real life experience? Don't get me wrong, again, see for more below
What would be naivete is idealizing it and stretching the framework beyond its limits which does often seem to happen to socionics fans.
That duality doesn't always play out does not necessarily refute the concept because that depends on what conditions affect the outcome, we need to examine all such conditions to determine what exactly duality as a factor on its own contributes and how or if it does work consistently at all.
I think beta dual relations are over-idealized, intense and ridiculous, because, well, the beta quadra is intense, over-idealistic, and ridiculous. Also, thanks to mass media plus Se, Fe makes users feel the need to be in the most ridiculous, movie-like relationships that they can get themselves in.
Dualized betas are a bit like people in the constant state of a high after orgasm. NFs seem more mentally and physically awake, as if they've taken a shot of red bull, and STs seem like they've inhaled some laughing gas or had a glass of wine. NFs are more productive; STs calm down and enjoy society. If you've ever had tantric sex, this is what it feels like. Energy put into the relationship is 100% used into building the relationship. It is "recycled" totally and put into good use that benefits all involved.
Around SLEs a lot: I like doing things and talking to people.
Not around SLEs: I like laying in my bed and doing the internet.
I guess you could say that dualization moderates the temperaments. IPs learn how to get off of our asses, EPs learn that they don't always have to act IMMEDIATELY, IJs learn that not *everything* has to fit their internal monitor, and EJs learn that sometimes it helps to intentionally choose to do the most, rather than just doing the most all the time automatically.
Ugh, I'm so jealous I mean I would never sign up to be a woman in america bc sexism but like damn if I could just follow and talk/think for 24hrs I would be the most joyful boy in town.In 24 hours I took 0 decisions and that was heaven.
Not a rule, just a trend.
IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.
Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...
I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.
Duals just make you lazy and needy if you rely on them to cover your weaknesses and do everything for you. Some of my SLE duals have helped push me out of my comfort zone and do things I didn't believe I could do or even know that I wanted to do BUT other types have done the same. ILI hit me with that Te until I had to suck it up and deal with it. If it wasn't for an ILI I would have never gone back to school. The biggest difference is that I am less inclined to get seriously angry with an SLE dual for pushing too hard. Of course all this is hindsight since I didn't even know what a dual was until I joined here. Romantic dual relationships should be like some kind of end of life reward. After the world has had it's way with you. <3
So dualised Betas become Delta? Talk about a rough deal...
Well, that would explain some things I have observed.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
I could see you were saying a lot of the stuff about the theory that's stated by various socionics theorists is bullshit - which we totally agree on - but I wasn't clear on where you place the idea of duality in terms of that. Did you mean your experience does support the duality idea just as stated in orthodox socionics while duality* may check out less for other people?
*: I would agree that for a good relationship you do need more than duality, other factors obviously also matter so I'm not asking about that. Just simply about the factor of duality itself.
This is so cool, Bain. Happy for you!
I will just give one example of where being lazy and/or needy comes into play. I know how to put furniture together. I have figured it out for myself many times in the past. My ese sister and I put a whole room together by ourselves once. But with my friend, who is a dual, around, all of a sudden I kinda feel like I can't do things like that well enough anymore. I look at the instructions and get a headache. Recently I asked my IEI brother to put something together for me because I did not want to do it and I did not want to impose on my friend. My brother did it and it was put together wrong. He misjudged the force needed and screwed it too tight. The table was a bit lopsided and we were both just looking at it and decided "good enough". hahah
The truth is it wasn't good enough and it was bothering me. I wanted it to look perfect but I didn't want my brother to feel bad. I would have done it myself but I was not picking up on what he did wrong. I thought the parts may not have been aligned correctly at the factory and it might have been defective. I didn't put much thought into it. My SLE friend walks in and immediately looks at the table and knows exactly what went wrong and went to work fixing it. Took like 3 minutes. Seems like my brother and are starting to totally rely on him fixing things because we know he knows what he is doing. It comes naturally to him or something.
Before he was around, if we needed something done, we had to do it ourselves. I don't know if it is laziness or neediness but I have grown used to asking him to do things I do not want to do and I appreciate it when he does but I don't want to take advantage of anyone. There are areas though where he has made me do things I do not want to do and afterwards I feel good about it. Not resentful at all. I hate to appear weak and now I feel I may be subconsciously projecting weakness which makes my friend go into action mode to sort me out. He is also very good at praising my strengths and he downplays my weaknesses or just ignores them sometimes. He will tell me to "stop being a pussy" and do it if he thinks I am being lazy. It is like he can tell the difference. Maybe that is an intuitive sense he gets.
I realize there is a difference in romantic duality and friendship duality. I am not as emotionally invested as I would be if we were. I feel secure in our friendship and believe it is a lasting one. His Ni seeking is obvious and he takes every opportunity to listen to me when I am talking about things I am confident about. He takes my advice seriously and does not make fun of my spiritual ramblings and predictions. He actually gives me a lot of credit when it comes to forecasting how events will unfold. This friendship is very easy/comfortable. I did ask if I was asking for too much and he said no. He does not resent being asked for help. I think he kind of likes it as long as he is in charge and is appreciated for it. He has a lot of energy and is always doing things. I would be exhausted living his life.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
Do people use duality as a metaphor for being adapted.
Or everyone is saying that you need a special someone, a dual to be not crazy.
I dunno if you're all romantics, idealists or leeches.