Dualized Betas

[Velvet]

I could feel comfortable in an "equal" relationship, but I could not stand feeling superior. If that was the case, I would not even enter the relationship in the first place.

That's what Starfall called the worthy opponent I guess. Personally the only time I was completely heels over head (and still am) was about this guy who is very assertive and intimidating to some point. His confidence made me push my personal boundaries and I came into close to a make over (and this is something he will never know because I will be silent as grave about it, but unconciously he helped me a lot with my low self esteem). I need to admire the person to go further, fighting can be good at times to win the prize (and I will be that prize) but constant challenge and competition can be exhausting.

[darya]

I'm probably the total rain on the parade shithead here, but the whole beta dualism idealism has always struck me as terrible naive and brain dead. While I understand being attracted to people opposite in certain strength to you and who you feel comfortable at close distance with, as I'm also turned on by Se and Ti (....and even Ne is terribly sexy to me- what does that mean?????), I feel the more people you've been intimate with and in relationships with, the more you notice other compatibilities are much more important. Maybe these things wouldn't bother me as much, if it wasn't for the annoying semi-masochistic occult posts of people who can barely survive without their duals. I mean, please, get a fucking grip and some self confidence. Love your SO for the person he/she is, not what he/she can give you or ways he can make you more functional in the world. These cheesy contrived socionics inter-type relationships are just nauseating.

If you're IEI in love with SLE just say you're in love with how he makes you feel and what a great person he is, kind of more natural than reading from the Augusta manual.

[darya]

Are you drunk?

No, why ? This has always been my opinion on over -idealized duality in general, it just seems to be more pronounced in Beta quadra. It's not targeted on any specific people that have posted in this thread, just something that has always bothered me with socionics - this naivete about intertype relationships that just doesn't hold water irl - i mean, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, but certainly not enough times to write that many articles about. I've seen many duality relationships play out, and while they may have lasted and were even great relationships, they weren't any different from others as far as I could tell

[Myst]

Just to clarify: when I say EIEs and LSIs want to be "equals" the emphasis should be placed on equals in terms of competing against one another...Healthy competition should be stressed here...so as a metaphor for the erotic relations characteristic of this think of either a long drawn out battle that never ends because both partners won't back down or one in which either fights harder than the other, so to speak, to earn their victory...gender probably plays a role here as well. I do want to win in this respect but I don't want to be dominant in the sense of winning every time easily and the same for the LSI to some degree -- that would suck for the both of us because really it is the process of competing that is enjoyable. For a LSI male and EIE female it might be a bit more one sided -- your mileage may vary. It's not like a moralistically informed egalitarianism that one finds in some sanitizing feminist gender role shit -- like we're two homogenized and asexual equals. It is agonistic -- combative, empowering, and yeah blurs the lines in some respects.

I do very much enjoy various forms of fighting with certain EIEs I've known, that's with the ones that are the more provocative and energetic type and with the ones that are more submissive victimy I just enjoy being in charge though it's really for the good of both of us because I do care about the person. It's hard to say which version is more enjoyable for me, heh. For the former, I do like it when they do give in though. I also like it when they sometimes don't so it's all good. But for me the whole topic of dominance/submission/equality goes much beyond just simple competitive aspects when it's explicitly a romantic relationship. Maybe I'll put my thoughts on all of it together one day.

I'm probably the total rain on the parade shithead here, but the whole beta dualism idealism has always struck me as terrible naive and brain dead. While I understand being attracted to people opposite in certain strength to you and who you feel comfortable at close distance with, as I'm also turned on by Se and Ti (....and even Ne is terribly sexy to me- what does that mean?????), I feel the more people you've been intimate with and in relationships with, the more you notice other compatibilities are much more important. Maybe these things wouldn't bother me as much, if it wasn't for the annoying semi-masochistic occult posts of people who can barely survive without their duals. I mean, please, get a fucking grip and some self confidence. Love your SO for the person he/she is, not what he/she can give you or ways he can make you more functional in the world. These cheesy contrived socionics inter-type relationships are just nauseating.

If you're IEI in love with SLE just say you're in love with how he makes you feel and what a great person he is, kind of more natural than reading from the Augusta manual.

OK well you are saying in your later post that you didn't mean anyone specifically here but then what's the rain on the parade about. Anyway I don't mind your opinion, don't get me wrong

I do agree very much about loving your friend or SO for the person they are. I don't really care for duality in terms of it making me more "functional" or what. To me it's not about that, at all.

I think I also already made the distinction that duality is one factor between many other factors. I do find it an important factor for a good close relationship, though. Or other compatible intertype relations can also be good, sure. That all is a bit more complex than I can say it in just one line and probably also dependent on the specific types. It's also dependent on what we mean by "good close relationship".

No, why ? This has always been my opinion on over -idealized duality in general, it just seems to be more pronounced in Beta quadra. It's not targeted on any specific people that have posted in this thread, just something that has always bothered me with socionics - this naivete about intertype relationships that just doesn't hold water irl - i mean, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, but certainly not enough times to write that many articles about. I've seen many duality relationships play out, and while they may have lasted and were even great relationships, they weren't any different from others as far as I could tell

Why do you call it naivete when it's based in real life experience? Don't get me wrong, again, see for more below

What would be naivete is idealizing it and stretching the framework beyond its limits which does often seem to happen to socionics fans.

That duality doesn't always play out does not necessarily refute the concept because that depends on what conditions affect the outcome, we need to examine all such conditions to determine what exactly duality as a factor on its own contributes and how or if it does work consistently at all.

[Velvet]

I'm probably the total rain on the parade shithead here, but the whole beta dualism idealism has always struck me as terrible naive and brain dead. While I understand being attracted to people opposite in certain strength to you and who you feel comfortable at close distance with, as I'm also turned on by Se and Ti (....and even Ne is terribly sexy to me- what does that mean?????), I feel the more people you've been intimate with and in relationships with, the more you notice other compatibilities are much more important. Maybe these things wouldn't bother me as much, if it wasn't for the annoying semi-masochistic occult posts of people who can barely survive without their duals. I mean, please, get a fucking grip and some self confidence. Love your SO for the person he/she is, not what he/she can give you or ways he can make you more functional in the world. These cheesy contrived socionics inter-type relationships are just nauseating.

If you're IEI in love with SLE just say you're in love with how he makes you feel and what a great person he is, kind of more natural than reading from the Augusta manual.

I get what you mean and I don't occult or idealize socionics in any way whatsoever. Actually I met (and liked) the guy long ago before knowing what the world typology even mean. He happens to be an SLE but even if he was any type I'd go for it because some things are just amazing without trying to make them fit into a manual.

[golden]

Just to clarify: when I say EIEs and LSIs want to be "equals" the emphasis should be placed on equals in terms of competing against one another...Healthy competition should be stressed here...so as a metaphor for the erotic relations characteristic of this think of either a long drawn out battle that never ends because both partners won't back down or one in which either fights harder than the other, so to speak, to earn their victory...gender probably plays a role here as well. I do want to win in this respect but I don't want to be dominant in the sense of winning every time easily and the same for the LSI to some degree -- that would suck for the both of us because really it is the process of competing that is enjoyable. For a LSI male and EIE female it might be a bit more one sided -- your mileage may vary. It's not like a moralistically informed egalitarianism that one finds in some sanitizing feminist gender role shit -- like we're two homogenized and asexual equals. It is agonistic -- combative, empowering, and yeah blurs the lines in some respects.

Jesus L. Pancake, you're reminding me of the year-plus I spent "dating" an EIE man. I want to win but I don't really want to win, and I want to lose but I don't really want to lose, and every time you turn around you're going to be chasing me just because that's so fun for us. Isn't it? Of course it is. Look at me look at me look at me look at me I'm so clever clever clever clever clever. And at one point the relationship came down to him literally saying, "It seems like we're always competing for the same attention from people." And then when I finally dumped him for someone else, "I want to marry you." Ugh. So glad I'm not an LSI. (I mean, in retrospect he just needed his ass handed to him.)

Look at all the bad memories you've evoked, McB!!!!!!!

[darya]

I do very much enjoy various forms of fighting with certain EIEs I've known, that's with the ones that are the more provocative and energetic type and with the ones that are more submissive victimy I just enjoy being in charge though it's really for the good of both of us because I do care about the person. It's hard to say which version is more enjoyable for me, heh. For the former, I do like it when they do give in though. I also like it when they sometimes don't so it's all good. But for me the whole topic of dominance/submission/equality goes much beyond just simple competitive aspects when it's explicitly a romantic relationship. Maybe I'll put my thoughts on all of it together one day.




OK well you are saying in your later post that you didn't mean anyone specifically here but then what's the rain on the parade about. Anyway I don't mind your opinion, don't get me wrong

I do agree very much about loving your friend or SO for the person they are. I don't really care for duality in terms of it making me more "functional" or what. To me it's not about that, at all.

I think I also already made the distinction that duality is one factor between many other factors. I do find it an important factor for a good close relationship, though. Or other compatible intertype relations can also be good, sure. That all is a bit more complex than I can say it in just one line and probably also dependent on the specific types. It's also dependent on what we mean by "good close relationship".




Why do you call it naivete when it's based in real life experience? Don't get me wrong, again, see for more below

What would be naivete is idealizing it and stretching the framework beyond its limits which does often seem to happen to socionics fans.

That duality doesn't always play out does not necessarily refute the concept because that depends on what conditions affect the outcome, we need to examine all such conditions to determine what exactly duality as a factor on its own contributes and how or if it does work consistently at all.

I get what you mean and I don't occult or idealize socionics in any way whatsoever. Actually I met (and liked) the guy long ago before knowing what the world typology even mean. He happens to be an SLE but even if he was any type I'd go for it because some things are just amazing without trying to make them fit into a manual.

I swear I didn't mean anyone specific and wasn't even annoyed by the personal stories in this thread - I'm very happy for anyone who's in a great dual relationship and get how it could work and make you feel completed when people are compatible - even when chemistry is right, dating people too similar to yourself is usually bad for self-development and seldom works long-term.

My irritation is targeted at the internet phenomenon of people who go strictly for their socionics duals and claim that their duals and only their duals are the ones that can make them happy. That's when it becomes naive and removed from reality. And these delusional people are for some odd reason predominantly certain IEI's, who praise the mighty SLE like a bizzare cult. Seems like an unhealthy fetishization (not to mention ass-kissing ).

[Myst]

I swear I didn't mean anyone specific and wasn't even annoyed by the personal stories in this thread - I'm very happy for anyone who's in a great dual relationship and get how it could work and make you feel completed when people are compatible - even when chemistry is right, dating people too similar to yourself is usually bad for self-development and seldom works long-term.

My irritation is targeted at the internet phenomenon of people who go strictly for their socionics duals and claim that their duals and only their duals are the ones that can make them happy. That's when it becomes naive and removed from reality. And these delusional people are for some odd reason predominantly certain IEI's, who praise the mighty SLE like a bizzare cult. Seems like an unhealthy fetishization (not to mention ass-kissing ).

Sure I have seen that phenomenon before. There must be a reason why is it IEI/SLE that gets idealized like that.. As for myself I make very sure to never believe in illusions so I base my opinion on duality on real experiences

[niffer]

I think beta dual relations are over-idealized, intense and ridiculous, because, well, the beta quadra is intense, over-idealistic, and ridiculous. Also, thanks to mass media plus Se, Fe makes users feel the need to be in the most ridiculous, movie-like relationships that they can get themselves in.

Dualized betas are a bit like people in the constant state of a high after orgasm. NFs seem more mentally and physically awake, as if they've taken a shot of red bull, and STs seem like they've inhaled some laughing gas or had a glass of wine. NFs are more productive; STs calm down and enjoy society. If you've ever had tantric sex, this is what it feels like. Energy put into the relationship is 100% used into building the relationship. It is "recycled" totally and put into good use that benefits all involved.

[Olimpia]

Dualized betas are a bit like people in the constant state of a high after orgasm. NFs seem more mentally and physically awake, as if they've taken a shot of red bull, and STs seem like they've inhaled some laughing gas or had a glass of wine. NFs are more productive; STs calm down and enjoy society. If you've ever had tantric sex, this is what it feels like. Energy put into the relationship is 100% used into building the relationship. It is "recycled" totally and put into good use that benefits all involved.

Sounds good to me. Haha.

[silverchris9]

Around SLEs a lot: I like doing things and talking to people.
Not around SLEs: I like laying in my bed and doing the internet.

I guess you could say that dualization moderates the temperaments. IPs learn how to get off of our asses, EPs learn that they don't always have to act IMMEDIATELY, IJs learn that not *everything* has to fit their internal monitor, and EJs learn that sometimes it helps to intentionally choose to do the most, rather than just doing the most all the time automatically.

In 24 hours I took 0 decisions and that was heaven.

Ugh, I'm so jealous I mean I would never sign up to be a woman in america bc sexism but like damn if I could just follow and talk/think for 24hrs I would be the most joyful boy in town.

[Satan]

shit there are a lot of words. the gist?