The Beatles

[JuJu]

Socionics case study: The Beatles

I came across an old thread on the Beatles' types, (three years old or thereabouts.) Obviously, that thread was started long before anyone here knew much about Socionics, so the guesses were a bit off, i.e. someone said they were all Alpha. I thought about this b.s. this morning, as I have the week off from school.

In terms of Socionics, the Beatles worked well together because both Lennon's and Harrison's beta writings were balanced by McCartney's alpha writings. Beatles albums were rarely, if ever, 'too heavy' (the critique frequently levied against both Lennon's and Harrison's solo albums) or 'too light' (the general critique of McCartney's solo albums.)

More specifically, for every biting, dissonant "Happiness is a Warm Gun," or experimental "A Day In The Life," (both Lennon songs,) McCartney would counter with upbeat songs like "Your Mother Should Know," "Two of Us," or ballads like "I Will" and "The Long and Winding Road."

Sometimes different quadra voices could be heard in the same Beatles' song, e.g. "I've Got a Feeling," (a typically upbeat McCartney rock n' roll song until Lennon starts singing about having a hard year and wet dreams,) or even the 90s Beatles' song, "Free as a Bird." In other cases, McCartney would write the melody to a Lennon lyric, to make the song more commercially appealing, e.g. "Nowhere Man." Likewise, Lennon would sometimes add lyrics to McCartney songs to give them more bite, e.g. "Getting Better." ("I have to admit/ It's getting better/Better all the time." - McCartney. "It couldn't get much worse." -Lennon.)

Even the Beatles' albums can be characterized by Socionics quadra, with Sgt. Pepper dominated by alpha themes and songs, (e.g. "A little help from my friends;" "Lovely Rita," down to the album concept and cover art.) The White Album is filled with beta songs and themes, ("Revolution 9; Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except for Me and My Monkey," down to the album cover and concept.)

John Lennon = ENFj ... His wife, Yoko Ono, is ISTj. Lennon's closest friend in the Beatles was Harrison, another beta NF... Critical of McCartney for years after The Beatles' break-up, (see: "How Do You Sleep?" from Imagine.) That said, Lennon seemed to envy McCartney's post-Beatles commercial success, e.g. reportedly waking Yoko up during the night and asking, "why do they always cover Paul's songs and not mine?" Also saying that "no one has caused [him] more pain in life" than McCartney. To those familiar with Socionics, the case for Lennon as ENFj becomes fairly obvious during interviews, especially post-Beatles, (see interview with Dick Cavett on YouTube.)

George Harrison = INFp ... Wife Olivia is ESTp. Solo material emphasized religion, Eastern wisdom, and mysticism. Caustic, ironic sense of humor, (see interview with Dick Cavett on YouTube.) Frequently criticized and made fun of McCartney following the Beatles' break-up, and openly resented him before it, (see: Let it Be film.) Looked to Lennon as a mentor. "The quiet Beatle," with the 'I'm looking through you' Ni look you see on people like Nick (strrrng.)

Paul McCartney = ISFp ... McCartney's long-time wife, Linda, was ENTp. Both were large proponents of vegetarianism and animal rights. As they matured, McCartney and Lennon (and Harrison, for that matter,) did not did not see eye-to-eye beyond music, (or even re: music,) i.e. different philosophies, exemplified by McCartney's reveling in the pastoral and domestic (see Ram, McCartney solo albums) vs. John's politicizing and avant-garde interests (see Plastic Ono Band and Sometime In New York City solo albums.) Defiantly released popular songs about nothing for years following the Beatles break-up, e.g. "Silly Long Songs."

Ringo Starr = ENTp ... Wife Barbara Bach (former Bond Girl, I'm pretty sure,) is ISFp. Did not write his own songs, for the most part, (except "Octopus' Garden" and "Don't Pass Me By," and maybe a couple others,) although his personality comes through in interviews. Good friends with McCartney, i.e. in the Beatles, would often vacation with McCartney, while Lennon would often vacation with Harrison.

[ArchonAlarion]

I've heard that they were actually into socionics and self-typed as all Gamma.

Not only does that sound strange, but the self-typing as gamma is kinda ridiculous. I think overall they are Alpha.

[JuJu]

Not only does that sound strange, but the self-typing as gamma is kinda ridiculous. I think overall they are Alpha.

Like I said in that massive missive, it depends on which album you're talking about... Overall, I agree with you though--the popular image of the Beatles that survives is of the Sgt. Pepper era, which is decidedly Alpha.

Perhaps largely b/c Paul McCartney, in all his Alpha-ness, was their most potent and prolific songwriter at the height of their popularity. (Lennon had his moments, for sure, but his influence loomed largest during their early years, e.g. "Help!" and during the white album.)

There is not a single one of the Beatles, you are right, who is Gamma. (Or Delta for that matter.)

[ScarlettLux]

How lucky for all 4 of them to have married their Duals. Sweet.

[07490]

How lucky for all 4 of them to have married their Duals. Sweet.

Wp gave me a link which i find very interesting. in there it saids there is a study conducted that about 30% of the people have a dual as their marriage partner which i thought was hard to believe at first, but based on my account of experiences I think that percentage may be legit I have passed by alot of duality partner.

Here is the link.

Experiencing Dual Relations

[Brilliand]

Also, I'd expect people who marry their duals to be more successful... all that psychic backup has to count for something.

Of course, marriage isn't the only thing you can do with your dual that will help (e.g. a long-term business partnership).

[HarryBottom]

Don't know if there is a general consensus on this, but I searched the forum to no avail.

Anyone else think EIE for Lennon?
What about IEI for McCartney? I actually know little about the man, but some VI and seeing the interaction b/w him and Lennon makes me wonder. His songwriting might vouch for the idea as well. Seems to lack the obscurity that I'd expect, however, being that what they were doing is considered to have been very redefining in its time, it's hard to say. He seems to center around a lot of romanticism conceptually though, and I could very easily see the more tame sort of IEI songwriter there.

[stanprollyright]

Beta NF makes sense for Lennon
McCartney I see as Alpha, maybe ESE?
I don't know enough about the other two.

[HarryBottom]

Sorry, I actually meant IEE for Lennon. I used to post way back before ya'll started using the socionics acronyms.
Does this greatly conflict with you?
Beta NF seems to be a worthy consideration for most musicians in these types of positions. I read part of a biography and it was definately steering me in a VERY IEE direction, though.

And I could see McCartney I could definately see as Alpha as well, though I'd be more inclined to put him as SEI.

[crazedrat]

ENTp makes more sense for lennon. ESFp for mccartney, maybe INTj for harrison and alpha SF for ringo.

[HarryBottom]

ENTp makes more sense for lennon. ESFp for mccartney, maybe INTj for harrison and alpha SF for ringo.

Or maybe I'm just getting a VERY Ne vibe, fair enough. Why do you say ENTP makes more sense?

[Dionysius]

Lennon is ILE-Ti
Paul is SEI-xx
Harrison is LII-Ne
Ringo is Alpha SF

They're all alpha.

[Radio]

Lennon - ILE E6
McCartney - SEI E3
Harrison - LII E9
Starr - SEI E9

[Words]

Seems like a lot of effort to type 4 people

I don't have any qualms with The McCartney being SEE - clear as day

[Not A Communist Shill]

@mu4 persuaded me that Paul is probably SEE, @Radio probably inadvertently made me think George was EII (I think I thought IEI for ages). I keep thinking John was IEI but ILE may well be correct. Ringo as SEI, sure.

[IBTL]

@mu4 persuaded me that Paul is probably SEE, @Radio probably inadvertently made me think George was EII (I think I thought IEI for ages). I keep thinking John was IEI but ILE LIE may well be correct. Ringo as SEI, sure.

Paul SEE, George EII, John LIE, and Ringo SEI

[Contra]

Just to throw my vote in there:

McCartney- SEI.

Harrison- LII

Lennon- ILE

Ringo Starr- SEI

McCartney and Lennon are the most clear in my opinion.

[Sol]

@Rusal
About typing by fragmented behavior of not well known people. Descriptions of a behavior by other people have additional distortions.
VI have no these problems - you see the behavior yourself and it's rather whole behavior for typing. If you significantly type by VI IRL and notice good match of common behavior to type's impressions goten by VI - you may trust to your VI skills.
For famouses - VI is the primary and the only trusty approach, when it gives assured impressions.

Besides data quality problem, the other is high speculativity of today methods which allow multiple interpretations of the same data. It's the other reason for low interest to discussions and arguments about what type is. Both sides may think their arguments as weighty and generally there is no objective basis to change the opinions. The main sense to exchange by those opinions as this arises the chance an opinion will be accepted in case the other side will doubt in own opinion sometimes. And it's easier to get doubts from novices who do not trust to own opinions highly.
Take into account that the speculativity stays and an opinion has significant chance to be incorrect, despite how many people have agreed with it. Having generally high typing conformism (due to muddy methods, lack of data and that most are noobs) the number of people who share same opinion means even lesser.

If you notice that opinion of more experienced in typing differs, the more reasonable approach is not to try to convince by noobish arguing, but to try understand why other opinion can be possible. As often your current opinion will be incorrect.

There is Trump thread. I'm sure his type is EIE. The majority thinks as S*E. I mainly typed by VI. They use probably public texts and words of a politician and about him. Just an example to explain the value of texts and noobs' opinions.

[Amber]

Paul McCartney: SEI > gamma sf

Lennon: Alpha NT (probably ILE-Ti subtype)

Ringo Star: SEI-Fe

George Harrison: ILI or IEI (Ni subt of either type)

[silke]

Lennon: ILE sp/so

George Harrison: LII 9w8

[para]

Lennon seems like an ILI to me.

[SyrupDeGem]

I could see:

Lenon as ILE

MCartney as ESE

Harrison as EII

Starr... unsure

[Marep]

I could see:

Lenon as ILE

MCartney as ESE

Harrison as EII

Starr... unsure

I agree with your typings, except for Harrison who I'd type ESI (reminds me of Bob Dylan).
As for Starr, I'll stick to my previous typing for him, which is SEE.

[para]

George Harrison a Ni lead? Or LII?

[Guillaine]

I think Harrison might be SLI... that or very si-SEI Harmonsizer which strengthens Te

[nefnaf]

Lennon: LIE contacting
McCartney: SEE distancing
Harrison: SLI distancing
Ringo: ESE distancing

[para]

Paul McCartney - SEI?

[para]

@Sol
If John Lennon is SLI, what about the other Beatles?

[Sol]

If John Lennon is SLI, what about the other Beatles?

Paul McCartney - SEI
George Harrison - ILI
Ringo Starr - SEI
para - SLI

[para]

Paul McCartney - SEI
George Harrison - ILI
Ringo Starr - SEI
para - SLI

It's about time i was recognized as the 'fifth Beatle'. What would they have done without my Socionics posts?

[Sol]

It's about time i was recognized as the 'fifth Beatle'. What would they have done without my Socionics posts?

they'd had lesser of inspiration

[ooo]

Lennon EIE
Paul IEE
Ringo SLI
Harrison LSI

[Marep]

Ringo Starr looks exactly like a SEE-Fi guy I know. He could very well be his twin brother, for all I know.

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=...LrjEQvVXon79M:

[Realistic Socionist]

The suggestion that all Beatles' were married to their Duals is quite funny. But of course it's almost impossible, as we know Duality is rare, imagine happening to the 4 of them.

Harrison is the easiest to type. Introverted, sensitive, disconnected from reality and his emotions flow inwardly (Fi > Fe). He was INFj, Fi subtype.

Paul is by far the toughest to type. Despite his obvious emotionality and expressiveness (strong Fe), and apparent introversion (low energy), he looks quite imaginative, which can also lead to the impression of intuition. But my conclusion tells me he is neither introverted nor intuitive. He is Extraverted and Sensing. Very expressive in his interviews, very open about things, and a clear and inquestionable leader - he wrote most of the Beatles' songs, of course by forcing his way out of things. He is a soft subtype of the ESFp, the Fi variation. I thought for a while he was SEI and an argument could be made in favour of Dumas for him, but his strenght and my VI experience lead me to choose SEE for him. Even after the Beatles, Paul's seeking for success, ambition and amplifying growth is typical of Se Ego and SEEs specially.

Lennon was obviously an intuitive and an extravert (abstract, imaginative and high energy, erratic, leader). However, he was not a Fe Base type as some suggested. He was very little emotionally expressive in his facial muscles which is the most characteristic trait of Fe Egos. They very openly express their emotions even unintentionally. Lennon was not like that. He was guarded, his emotions were flowing more inwardly - which suggests Fi. ILEs can resemble Fi types sometimes because of their repressed emotions, but ILEs have strong lines in their faces, along with cold, scientist-like eyes, as a rule. Lennon had gentle facial lines along with somewhat sentimental eyes. This combined with his lack of vivid expressiveness (Fi > Fe) and his marriage to Yoko (ISFj, probably Se subtype) indicates he was ENFp. I believe Lennon was the Fi subtype. "Artistic, impatient, extravagant, unpredictable" (Meged, subtypes)

Ringo I don't know, never took the time to figure out his type, but looks Fi Base, I'd bet on EII but latter I'll take a look.

Either way, Beatles were Fi. SEE, IEE, EII. Lennon-McCartney was a Business relationship.

[user123]

Lennon EIE
Harrison LSI

[khcs]

Paul McCartney - ISTP - Gabin

[khcs]

George Harrison - ENFJ - Hamlet

[khcs]

Ringo Starr - INTP - Balzac

[Dauphin]

khcs those are impressively bad typings

[Adam Strange]

For me, Harrison is easiest at LSI, and then Ringo as ESI.

Lennon and McCartney are harder. I've thought that Lennon could be LII or EIE (WTF, right? Although his cold, analytical eyes point more towards LII), while McCartney seems an Alpha Feeler. Unfortunately, I don't know any male SEI's to compare him to, so he's just ???.