Watchmen

[717495]

Or are Aristocrats the ultimate Rorschach? *ruminates*

[xkj220]

Dr. Manhattan LII
Rorschach LSI
Ozymandias LIE
Nite Owl II EII
Comedian SLE
Silk Spectre II ESE
Silk Spectre I IEI
Dr. Manhattans' Wife IEE

Average movie with moments when it shines through.

[silverchris9]

The Comedian is probably SLE. Why are SLEs in movies always dicks?! It's sort of offensive. I hope Rorschach is LSI. He actually reminds me of my probably-LSI friend quite a lot. But I would believe ESI too. Very likely one or the other. I guess Silk Specter I and the Comedian are another dysfunctional duals type of couple. I'm convinced those pop up in literature and art more often that socionics would expect. I think that the dude who Dr. Manhattan was before he became Dr. Manhattan was almost certainly LII. To what degree Dr. Manhattan is still LII is uncertain. I might agree with whoever said he started acting more ILI as time went on with his powers. Certainly he got more distant from the earth, which is an Ni-ish thing to do.

[Azeroffs]

I thought it was a great movie. I thought the ending was beautiful. I was just like damn.. that's awesome. It definitely had a gamma coloring to it imo. Heavy, dark, and controversial.

Dr. Manhattan is beyond socionics type guys, even assuming that fictional characters are typeable.. lol
He has cognitive abilities beyond that of a human... Maybe he was LII at first and then after he became big blue he held on to the manifestations of type, but really trying to type him after he got his abilities is just pointless because he probably has some kind of 5th perception function. No real person would act that way naturally. If anything, maybe some kind of LII/ILI hybrid.

[Krig the Viking]

I just watched the Director's Cut of the Watchmen movie yesterday, and had some further observations.

First of all, I was wrong, Ozymandias is EIE. My understanding of the types has improved enough that it seems pretty clear now. Gilly, your points about him are accurate. His whole plan involved manipulating the emotions of humanity on a global scale, to make them unite out of fear, and if that's not an EIE scheme, I don't know what is.

The comparisons to ****** are especially appropriate, in light of this typing.

I was pretty sure that Rorschach was LSI before, but now I'm positive. He and Nite Owl II, who is LII, have a close Kindred relationship -- they have very similar crimefighting styles, and their disagreements all fall along the Ne/Se divide. Rorschach is too aggressive and doesn't contemplate alternatives enough for Nite Owl, and Nite Owl is too much of a lazy sissy for Rorschach. But otherwise (and this is clearer in the Director's Cut) they are actually good friends with a lot of similarities.

And like I said, Rorschach's morality is unshakeably Ti. He has explicit, clearly-defined "laws" of morality, which he never, ever breaks.

Silk Spectre I I think is SEE. I think this is better demonstrated in the Director's Cut, where it shows more of the relationship between her and Hollis Mason. Hollis being Delta ST (I said LSE before, but I could see an argument to be made for SLI), their interaction did not strike me as Conflict or Super-Ego. Mirage would make sense.

Also, I found Hollis Mason's death scene to be very moving. The last stand of an ageing hero, and all that.

I found it interesting to note that all three members of Beta Quadra in this movie essentially agreed in their basic view of humanity: that people are basically evil and corrupt. How they reacted to this assessment of humanity is very in keeping with their types:

LSI Rorschach responded by clinging to a rigid system of morality, and severely punishing those who transgressed it.
EIE Ozymandias responded by trying to control what he saw as a dynamic situation; he was trying to force the world around him to conform.
SLE Comedian responded by cynically using it as an excuse to do whatever impulsive thing he felt like, because after all, humanity is evil anyway, right? Unlike Rorschach and Ozymandias, the Beta Rationals, the Comedian saw no need to try to change the evil world or make it a better place; he just went along with it.

The Alpha characters all had a more positive view of humanity. They acknowledged the existence of evil, but they still saw good in people (even Dr. Manhattan, who eventually returned to try to save humanity, because he had seen the value of life). They also responded in characteristic ways to the problem of evil:
LIIs Manhattan and Nite Owl, despite being quite different characters on the surface, actually were very similar in many ways. Both responded to the evil of humanity by withdrawing from the world -- Manhattan hid in his lab, and then Mars, and ultimately left the galaxy. Nite Owl II, after the passage of the Keene Act, mopes around his lair, detached and alone. Interestingly, the only thing capable of rousing either of them out of their stupors and getting them to connect to the world again is an ESE -- Silk Spectre II. In the end, Nite Owl rejoins the world, and Manhattan withdraws completely and leaves the galaxy.

Seriously, this is one of the most realistic movies I've seen as far as characterization and accurate portrayal of the types goes.

[silverchris9]

I found it interesting to note that all three members of Beta Quadra in this movie essentially agreed in their basic view of humanity: that people are basically evil and corrupt. How they reacted to this assessment of humanity is very in keeping with their types:

LSI Rorschach responded by clinging to a rigid system of morality, and severely punishing those who transgressed it.
EIE Ozymandias responded by trying to control what he saw as a dynamic situation; he was trying to force the world around him to conform.
SLE Comedian responded by cynically using it as an excuse to do whatever impulsive thing he felt like, because after all, humanity is evil anyway, right? Unlike Rorschach and Ozymandias, the Beta Rationals, the Comedian saw no need to try to change the evil world or make it a better place; he just went along with it.

It all goes to show, without an IEI around, everything goes to shit.

[Krig the Viking]

It all goes to show, without an IEI around, everything goes to shit.

Presumably, the IEI would be writing poetry about how horrible the human race is.

[Gilly]

I just watched the Director's Cut of the Watchmen movie yesterday, and had some further observations.

First of all, I was wrong, Ozymandias is EIE. My understanding of the types has improved enough that it seems pretty clear now. Gilly, your points about him are accurate. His whole plan involved manipulating the emotions of humanity on a global scale, to make them unite out of fear, and if that's not an EIE scheme, I don't know what is.

Thank you. I suppose I can see where the LIE considerations come from, but to me, he is an obvious EIE.

I was pretty sure that Rorschach was LSI before, but now I'm positive. He and Nite Owl II, who is LII, have a close Kindred relationship -- they have very similar crimefighting styles, and their disagreements all fall along the Ne/Se divide. Rorschach is too aggressive and doesn't contemplate alternatives enough for Nite Owl, and Nite Owl is too much of a lazy sissy for Rorschach. But otherwise (and this is clearer in the Director's Cut) they are actually good friends with a lot of similarities.

I still think Night Owl II is EII, personally; I think Silk Spectre II is his beneficiary, SEI, which explains why she takes him over Manhattan on a whim, but cannot deny that her real "purpose" is complimentary to Manhattan, and that she is the only one who can convince him of the value of humanity; her fascination with NO II seems perhaps transient and is based on a combination of similarity (appreciating that he is ethical, understands people, etc) and complimentary traits (he is receptive to her initiative and soforth).

Silk Spectre I I think is SEE. I think this is better demonstrated in the Director's Cut, where it shows more of the relationship between her and Hollis Mason. Hollis being Delta ST (I said LSE before, but I could see an argument to be made for SLI), their interaction did not strike me as Conflict or Super-Ego. Mirage would make sense.

She is certainly an Se valuing ethical extrovert, so yeah, SEE or EIE. SEE might make more sense.

I found it interesting to note that all three members of Beta Quadra in this movie essentially agreed in their basic view of humanity: that people are basically evil and corrupt.

Indeed. Philosophically, Betas are the quadra that seeks to examine the core internal operational dynamics of human nature (Ni+Fe) based on the basic rules of humanity's physical constitution and the laws of nature it is governed and sustained by (Ti+Se). This is why they see futility in Delta's attempts to implement systems that seek to curb or ameliorate the harshness of human nature.

How they reacted to this assessment of humanity is very in keeping with their types:

LSI Rorschach responded by clinging to a rigid system of morality, and severely punishing those who transgressed it.
EIE Ozymandias responded by trying to control what he saw as a dynamic situation; he was trying to force the world around him to conform.
SLE Comedian responded by cynically using it as an excuse to do whatever impulsive thing he felt like, because after all, humanity is evil anyway, right? Unlike Rorschach and Ozymandias, the Beta Rationals, the Comedian saw no need to try to change the evil world or make it a better place; he just went along with it.

Spot on.

Seriously, this is one of the most realistic movies I've seen as far as characterization and accurate portrayal of the types goes.

Indeed. I thought that Night Owl's "rejoining" is perhaps indicative of emphasis on Fi/Te acceptance of external reality and willingness to cooperate with the necessary sacrifices, contrasted with Manhattan's more idealistic Fe/Ti stance which causes him to retreat from reality into the realm where he is more personally comfortable and can operate and live under his own rules and conditions.

[strangeling]

Saw this two days ago; thought about Jung/socionics in it, very analytical thoughts:

I got out of it,

Manhattan - ILI -> Mystic, Seer, hermit-like, has a hard time relating with humanity when he feels so disappointed by their ethical choices. I thought the scene with the Comedian killing the pregnant woman was his way of showing his dissatisfaction. The comedian saw it differently, that because he didn't do anything, Manhattan is just as bad, but to intervene is to tell someone else what ethical choices to make. In IP fashion, he probably wanted to see what the Comedian would do of his own volition and judge him on his own actions. Greatly disagrees and is dissatisfied with the ethics of others and retreats from relationships with them in the only way that he can agree with, none at all (highly schizoid). Struggles with feeling because of this, but in his melancholy probably secretly wishes he didn't have to feel the need to separate himself from others. Seemed to have a problem with sensing (namely Se) when he was put on that show and freaked out from being overloaded by everything that was happening at once, using Se in a way that was neurotic (teleporting everyone away) and caused him to be seen in a negative light.

Silk Spectre II - SEI -> But I don't have a strong argument for this. She seemed to struggle with thinking more than feeling, often frustrated by the behavior of Dr. Manhattan in a way that Dr. Manhattan couldn't seem to help her understand (which probably makes sense if he's Fi-valuing). Didn't seem to relate with Dr. Manhattan much and seemed IP temperament. She didn't seem very neurotic though, so maybe it's hard to make a strong argument, not sure.
Comedian - SLE -> Ni inferior/suggestive/whateveryoucallit in the way he'd look at things, often taking the most contradictory and negative way of understanding the nature of things, that everything is kind of a joke, but especially the idea that as super heroes they could claim a moral ground above others - "Justice is coming to all of us, no matter what the fuck we do." Seemed to struggle with feeling as well. Didn't seem to know how to express himself in a way that others would accept or could agree with.

Rorschach - LSE -> Extrovert over introvert because he was not IP temperament and didn't seem to have trouble reconciling an internal world with the external world like an introvert does, but seemed to have trouble looking inward for meaning and introspecting on his own impulses; without the external world, he wouldn't have much of an identity. Huge problems with feeling. Could very rarely get anyone to agree with how he felt about the ethical actions of others, but felt strongly about them either way and would act on them regardless; probably the most neurotic of all the Watchmen due to seemingly being the most reactive in this regard. Si seemed most apparent in the very negative associations he'd make with the world around him. For example,

Rorschach: [reading from journal] Rorschach's Journal. October 12th, 1985: Dog carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst stomach. This city is afraid of me. I have seen its true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"... and I'll whisper "no."

Rorschach: I heard joke once: Man goes to doctor. Says he's depressed. Life seems harsh, and cruel. Says he feels all alone in threatening world. Doctor says: "Treatment is simple. The great clown - Pagliacci - is in town. Go see him. That should pick you up." Man bursts into tears. "But doctor..." he says "I am Pagliacci." Good joke. Everybody laugh. Roll on snare drum. Curtains.

Night Owl - ESI -> Seemed to often restrain his thinking side in conflicts, preferring to find ways that others could agree with what's going on. But also had this sort of idealized aspect to humanity when it came to morality of a seemingly humanistic philosophy. His neurotic side came out when he beat up that guy in the bar, despite the fact that the guy probably had nothing to do with his friend's murder and when he went after Ozymandias for Rorschach's death, despite the fact that Dr. Manhattan was the one that actually killed Rorschach. Felt bad about it when Rorschach told him not to do that in front of civilians. That seemed to be a neurotic Te side to his much more benevolent Fi. Seemed to get along with Rorschach pretty well and even told Rorschach (in his basement) how much of an ass Rorschach was being in a way that Rorschach was responsive too. They seemed to compliment each other in that regard. Night Owl was pretty distraught over Rorschach dying.

Ozy - Don't have a strong argument here either, since he didn't seem that neurotic. I'd at least say Ti/Fe valuing, either IJ or EJ. I guess EIE is popular and probably makes sense, given that Ozy's identity was tied up into the goal of conquering the evils of humanity through his understanding of human nature, particularly his utilitarian approach that parallels 1984's War is Peace, whereby making Dr. Manhattan the enemy of humanity, it brought humanity together against Dr. Manhattan at the same time. I was looking up his soliloquy from the movie that expresses this most and thought the one from the comic was more interesting.

My parents reached America the year I was born, 1939. Entering school, I was already exceptionally bright, my perfect scores on early test papers arousing such suspicion that I carefully achieved only average grades thereafter. What caused such precociousness? My parents were intellectually unremarkable, possessing no obvious genetic advantages. Perhaps I decided to be intelligent rather than otherwise? Perhaps we all make such decisions, though that seems a callous doctrine. By seventeen, my parents were both dead, and I faced a different decision. My inheritance offered life long idle luxury, and yet, needing nothing, I burned with the paradoxical urge to do everything. Do you understand? My intellect set me apart. Faced with difficult choices, I knew nobody whose advice might prove useful. Nobody living. The only human being with whom I felt any kinship died three hundred years before the birth of Christ. Alexander of Macedonia. I idolized him. A young army commander, he'd swept along the coasts of Turkey and Phoenicia, subduing Egypt before turning his armies towards Persia. He died, thirty-three, ruling most of the civilized world. Ruling without barbarism! At Alexandria, he instituted the ancient world's greatest seat of learning. True, people died ... perhaps unnecessarily, though who can judge such things? Yet how he nearly approached his vision of a united world! I was determined to measure my success against his. Firstly, I gave away my inheritance. to demonstrate the possibility of achieving anything starting from nothing. Next, I departed for Northern Turkey, to retrace my hero's steps. I wanted to match his accomplishment, bringing an age of illumination to a benighted world. Heh. I wanted to have something to say should we meet in the hall of legends. I followed the path of Alexander's war machine along the black sea coast, imagining his armies taking port after port, blood on ancient bronze. Perhaps because of the challenge it represented: the ancient world's greatest puzzle was there, a knot that couldn't be untied. Alexander cut it in two with his sword. Lateral thinking, you see. Centuries ahead of his time. Heading south, he entered Egypt through Memphis, where they proclaimed him son of Amon, judge of the dead, whose name means "hidden one." Under rule from Alexandria, the classic culture of the great Pharaohs was restored. I followed him through Babylon, up through Kabul to Samarkhand then down the Indus, where he met the first elephants of war. Where he'd turned back to quell dissent at home, I travelled on, through China and Tibet, gathering martial wisdom as I went. Alexander returned to Babylon to die of an infection, aged thirty-three, amongst its ruined ziggurats. I saw at last his failings. He'd not united all the world, nor built a unity that would survive him. Disillusioned, but determined, to complete my odyssey, I followed his corpse to its resting place in Alexandria. The night before returning to America, I wandered into the desert and ate a ball of hashish I'd been given in Tibet. The ensuing vision transformed me. Wading through powdered history, I heard dead kings walking underground, heard fanfares through human skulls. Alexander had merely resurrected an age of Pharaohs, their wisdom, truly immortal, now inspired me. What intellectual magnificence their system encouraged.. Ptolemy seeking the universe's pivot from his light-house at Pharos, Eratosthenes, measuring the world using only shadows … their greatest secrets entrusted to their servants, buried alive with them in sand-flooded chambers. Adopting Ramses the Second's Greek name and Alexander's free-booting style, I resolved to apply antiquity's teachings to today's world. Thus began my path to conquest … conquest not of men. But of evils that beset them. Today, that conquest becomes assured, in which your unquestioning assistance has proven invaluable. Do you comprehend the triumph which you have contributed, the secret glory that it affords? Do you understand my shame at so inadequate a reward?

[strrrng]

what really stood out to me about this film was how evil was used tastefully. it cast everything in the proper light.

rorschach: Se-ESI 6w5 sx/so
laurie: Ti-LSI 3w4
dr. manhattan: Ni-ILI 5w4
adrian: Ni-EIE 3w4 so/sp
comedian: Se-SEE (or SLE, he just seemed existentially 'loose' in a kind of democratic way) 7w8 sx/so
dan: Fi-IEE
sally: Ti-LSI

[Makuta]

Dr mannhatan : ILI. he have the cold detached attitude of a Fe porl, he is also more interested by humanity as a subject that he have to understand the moving mechanism (Te) rather than integrate humanity in a static world View. his speech about his perception of time his very Ni ish. he clearly represent the water elements of gamma, he is the voice of pragmatism with Veidt .more ILI-Ni than ILI-Te

Silk spectre II: SEI. no offence but LSI is a ridiculous typing for her (there is no Se authoritarianism or violence or any Ti rigid worldview, or Ne vulnerable). SEI fit best, harmony seeking and always wearing the most easthetic clothe, easely make jokes to bring up a positive atmosphere when she is with Nite Owl II. she represent the present oriented attitude of alpha.

Rorschach: LSI . ESI is a possible option but his ethic is too absolute and not enough contextual to be Fi, Fi is much more about self rightness and caregiving rather than absolute rules that have to be followed. his discussion about the rape of Silk Spectre I eliminate the correctness of a Fi base, it show the blind cause following of Ti base,his "someone have to know the truth" is also representative of a Ti base morality (like Kant's) obvious Se creative. he represent the fire impossible to douse of Beta, he was the one who never stopped to fight for the vigilante cause.

Ozymandias: LIE. Te base: pragmatism and machine builder. Check. Ni creative passion about antiquity, plan a long term future for humanity. Check. Si vulnerable: may not seem connected to the reality. check. he is like i said before the pragmatic of the band, he is mocking the Beta fighting style of Hero and create a correction of humanity's mistakes ==> Gamma to the hell. he represent he hidden force of the water quadra.

Nite Owl II: LII. he is a fucking nerd who classify birds: Ti base stereotype. his understanding of phenomena and his creativity indicate a Ne creative. his explosion when rorschach create a volitionnal pressure on him scream vulnerable Se. his reaction to ozimandias's plan with his "peace based on a lie" seem Ti. he is somewhat naive but creative in his view like most alpha (wind element).

The Comedian : SLE conqueror sadistic nihilist prototype. Se violence and leading ability, Ti non-nonsense replica. Beta patriotism (like Rorschach). Fi vulnerable insensitivity:Check.

Nite Owl I: typical nostalgic scrappy and drinking mate delta ST. the element of earth (wize, litteral and conservative) of Delta are evident in him.

Silk Spectre I: ESE: always joking Fe base+Si sensory stimulation seeking.

[PussyInASarcophagus]

Nite Owl II - LII - Harmonizing sub

Nite Owl I - Pathetic LSE - Creative sub

Dr. Manhattan - LIIEST OF ALL TIME. OF ALL TIME

Rorschach - I thought LSI but he resembles your average negativist justice fighter that are usually ESIs. Sorta admires The Comedian for having a similar outlook on the world, but he doesn't abide to it completely like The Comedian does. That signaled a mirror relationship, especially when Rorschach nagged him for being so chaotic and nihilistic. LSI Dominant sub

Silk Spectre II - Whiny SEI dominant sub. ESE would have a semi duality relationship with Rorschach which she clearly lacked.

Silk Spectre I - EIE Normalizing sub makes sense for her. Having an absurd sexual outlook on life. Despite raping her, she still comprehended The Comedian like no one else did. In a very catatonic manner mind you. Negativist Fe valuing type.

The Comedian - Chad GOD SLE Creative sub.

Ozymandias - Positivist to the max, LIE makes sense. His actions, plans all make perfect sense. But yeah, his damage would only heal temporary wounds. Only The Comedian and Manhattan could've seen this. Like always, the LIE seems to misunderstand logical actions with silly Hallmark pragmatism.

Zack Snyder: Beta of some sort. Irrational for sure. One of the greatest artistic minds of the 21st Century.

[Still Alive]

I think Dr. Manhattan is a LII, but since Alan Moore is an ILI, he also has many Ni aspects in his character.