ISFjs and "holding grudges"

[Minde]

IMO Minde and Calenwen are right here most of the others are wrong. I think most of you are misinterpreting the reasons ISFjs and INFJs have for their actions.

ISFjs are holistic perceivers. They see the whole person mirrored from single actions. It's not that they think about someone and judge them, it's that they perceive someone to be wholly worthless with Se. Fi is what makes them rethink things if you openly confront them, which is something that they do.

Example: An ISFj nurse I had not really ever talked to comes to me in the cafeteria and just flat out shouts: "Take your hat off!". I immediately take it off and apologize. Suddenly she's the warmest person ever and for the rest of the day she helps me beyond her well beyond her job description.

I think you people are mistaking "being absolutely negative and confrontational towards a person" with "judging".

A much larger problem is introduced if the ISFj is very high Se subtype and actually has quite low capacity for Fi-related forgiving.

One thing that ISFjs do is that they remember an event which triggered their impulse of confrontation, but if they didn't react, but they can't quite forgive and forget either, they end up dwelling with it, haunted by the memory, repetitively dwelling in negative thoughts and memories about a person. When meeting someone, the person may feel that they have been prejudged. But that word prejudged has nothing to do with socionic judging and nothing to do with Fi. It's the absence of that releasing Fi, the inability of the ISFj to make a genuine judging decision to be friendly towards someone that creates the situation of sincere intense dislike.

Furthermore, for most ISFjs it's standard operating procedure to be negative towards people. So another thing I've seen is that an ISFj may meet someone and be happy, but be so unused to actually liking someone that they go over the meeting in their head until they remember some little detail that they can dislike and through concentrating on that they restore the original state of confrontation. Again, that's not something personal, that's not Fi but absence of it. The Fi works to build bridges DESPITE all the bad memories.

To reiterate: ISFj- Se = the mental perceptive snapshot of a situation, concentrating on the problems more often than not
ISFj-Fi = ability to forgive, if not forget

From my experience, if the ISFj is given an opportunity to know the reason for an action in such a way that they can relate the single slighting event to a larger positive context, they become quite delightful people in most situations.

That is how it seems to me. If someone who is actually ISFj or ISTj or INFj wants to correct me, I'd be happy to read whatever you choose to comment on. I'm probably wrong about some things regarding this.

You are speaking here mostly of the ISFj spectrum. But what effect does Ne have?

A word associated with Ne is "possibilities", which is what I was thinking would make INFjs more "open" and "forgiving" - less tied to what actually happened and more accepting of differences. Perhaps. Or more open to different realities (though that sounds convoluted to me )... Maybe a better way to put it would be more allowing of different states. (No, that still doesn't sound right...)

Fi is judging. So why couldn't it judge someone as "bad" just as well as judging them as "good" and deserving of forgiveness?

[Minde]

I will add that something about Tom's "snapshots" resonates with me.

[The Greeter]

I wrote a response in another forum, here's the main point:

At 16types, there seems to be a false attribution to holding a grudge with Fi. In my experience, I find it more common in the Beta and Gamma quadras. If I recall correctly, members of Gamma have mentioned that the idea of justice holds incredible importance to them personally. And if we look at periods that were markedly 'Beta', their inspiration to revolution and rebellion, I think, can easily be tied to justice but is somewhat molded into a 'greater' cause, that is, part of the whole package. I think a strong sense of justice is correlated to holding grudges. That is not to say that Alpha and Delta have a weak sense of justice but are more willing to bend the 'rules' and be lenient thus seen as more 'forgiving'.

Of course, as Minde mentioned:

"In fact, I would think that they could be quite good at knowing how and being able to shift the reality to help alleviate the consequences, or at least make them turn out better, especially for people they care about."

This would be done, I imagine, when the guilty has proven hirself improved.

Basically, I agree with everyone who understands that Fi is not related to holding a grudge.

You are speaking here mostly of the ISFj spectrum. But what effect does Ne have?

A word associated with Ne is "possibilities", which is what I was thinking would make INFjs more "open" and "forgiving" - less tied to what actually happened and more accepting of differences. Perhaps. Or more open to different realities (though that sounds convoluted to me )... Maybe a better way to put it would be more allowing of different states. (No, that still doesn't sound right...)

Fi is judging. So why couldn't it judge someone as "bad" just as well as judging them as "good" and deserving of forgiveness?

I hope my interjection is welcomed.

I think that Fi, despite judging something about a person as 'good' or 'bad', will create a relationship regardless. For me at least, everybody has both but if the good is more prevalent, the relationship is positive; if the bad heavily outweighs the good, the relationship is negative.

Where I think Ne and Se comes to place in all of this is for an INFj, the good is weighed by the potential (this person wants to be good, not as bad as they seem, they didn't mean it, etc) while for an ISFj, the good is weighed by what has been observed and experienced (the person did this). In this perspective, one can see how INFj-Fi 'turns' ISFj-Fi and vice versa!

Originally Posted by JRiddy
Blah, blah, blah..."Trust me, I'm a doctor."
Quoted for people's innate trust for physicians with degrees.

But how does that matter in this situation? Not everyone knows Smilingeyes is a physician, or even has a degree nor does he calls attention to the fact. Totally uncalled for.

[Minde]

Why is she suddenly the warmest person ever I do not know.

Because he gave her what she wanted; he responded rightly to the way she thought things should be. My guess is she got warm fuzzies inside. I know for myself, anyway, that when I get warm fuzzies because of someone I'm more likely than not going to do some version of smothering them with affection - which often can take the form of helpful loyalty (or loyal helpfulness).

I hope my interjection is welcomed.

I welcome any opinions or ideas or interjections related to the topic at hand.

But how does that matter in this situation? Not everyone knows Smilingeyes is a physician, or even has a degree nor does he calls attention to the fact. Totally uncalled for.

Yes. Precisely.

[strrrng]

I think that Fi, despite judging something about a person as 'good' or 'bad', will create a relationship regardless. For me at least, everybody has both but if the good is more prevalent, the relationship is positive; if the bad heavily outweighs the good, the relationship is negative.

That makes decent sense.

Where I think Ne and Se comes to place in all of this is for an INFj, the good is weighed by the potential (this person wants to be good, not as bad as they seem, they didn't mean it, etc) while for an ISFj, the good is weighed by what has been observed and experienced (the person did this). In this perspective, one can see how INFj-Fi 'turns' ISFj-Fi and vice versa!

This is exactly right. INFjs will always see more latent potential in people, which can possibly be brought out in a new context. Whereas ISFjs are much more definite in their assessments of people; maybe less broad in their appraisals, but what they do conclude is always very reliable information.

[Smilingeyes]

You are speaking here mostly of the ISFj spectrum. But what effect does Ne have?

A word associated with Ne is "possibilities", which is what I was thinking would make INFjs more "open" and "forgiving" - less tied to what actually happened and more accepting of differences. Perhaps. Or more open to different realities (though that sounds convoluted to me )... Maybe a better way to put it would be more allowing of different states. (No, that still doesn't sound right...)

Fi is judging. So why couldn't it judge someone as "bad" just as well as judging them as "good" and deserving of forgiveness?

Ne and Se are both ways to perceive problems. The difference theoretically is that Se is short-term, immediate concrete issues that one can face immediately. It tends to result in confrontations. Ne results in more vague, more abstract, but more final approximations. Ne observes issues that one can't confront.

Anyway, Fi is judging of relationships, and how to create them and maintain them. It is not judging of qualities. Se and Ne perceive qualities and may result in long-term negative perceptions of people. Ne perceptions are, if anything a whole lot more final, as unto judgments (though having nothing to do with socionics judging.)

I don't know of a person with high Fi who had any interest in creating a BAD relationship with anyone. As long as IxFj concentrates on their Fi they seem interested in keeping up and finding ways to advance a relationship, despite issues.

For example, in this thread jriddy did something that was perceived by Minde as not good but she found a way to approach jriddy and attempt to find a constructive solution. If jriddy continues to demonstrate qualities and actions that Minde finds requiring correction, it will become more difficult to maintain such a relationship and if Minde's attempts continue to result in nothing good, Ne will start to suggest that there may be something deeply wrong with jriddy and it's just not a good idea to have any kind of a relationship with him at all, a sort of final silent giving up. (Though sometimes this giving up is not quite so silent, sometimes it's a vocal cry of desperation, and even then it may not be quite so final, if the state of Fi is restored.)

Anyway, the judging of objects is Te and Fe. It tends to be ENFjs who are most known for their fiery rhetoric against individuals or groups that they find to be completely evil and worthy of their ire. While I don't think an INFj or ISFj is necessarily incapable of doing the same thing, I don't see how they would have any use for Fe given their lifestyles.

Also, it causes ME no problem to JUDGE jriddy with Te, DESPITE that I PERCEIVED that what he said was kind of funny.

In relation to that I'd like to note that the person known on this forum for bannings is ExTj. I OTOH didn't even put jriddy on ignore though it might be that I should have.

Again, quite willing to take criticism.

[Minde]

Ne and Se are both ways to perceive problems. The difference theoretically is that Se is short-term, immediate concrete issues that one can face immediately. It tends to result in confrontations. Ne results in more vague, more abstract, but more final approximations. Ne observes issues that one can't confront.

Why more final?

(Thank you for answering my questions, by the way.)

For example, in this thread jriddy did something that was perceived by Minde as not good but she found a way to approach jriddy and attempt to find a constructive solution. If jriddy continues to demonstrate qualities and actions that Minde finds requiring correction, it will become more difficult to maintain such a relationship and if Minde's attempts continue to result in nothing good, Ne will start to suggest that there may be something deeply wrong with jriddy and it's just not a good idea to have any kind of a relationship with him at all, a sort of final silent giving up. (Though sometimes this giving up is not quite so silent, sometimes it's a vocal cry of desperation, and even then it may not be quite so final, if the state of Fi is restored.)

That is basically correct in terms of the process. (A not-directly-related side note stemming from a separate conversation: BTW, Tom, this here is a good example of tying the theory closely to practice. This is the kind of thing I look for when someone is explaining something theoretical to me - an example of how it would actually work. That way it can be cross-checked with reality.)

And, for the record, what I ended up saying was a bit more toned down (and hopefully diplomatic) than my initial reaction, which was basically -->

Also, it causes ME no problem to JUDGE jriddy with Te, DESPITE that I PERCEIVED that what he said was kind of funny.

To be honest, I was mainly upset for your sake, though I actually would like to keep things relatively on-topic. If you don't mind it, however, then I will try not to do so either, not on a personal level, anyway.

Again, quite willing to take criticism.

That makes me quite happy.