Experiences with Superego Relations

[Ezra]

Posted this at socionics workshop, but it looks inactive and shit and like I won't get a reply for at least a week.

I recently split up with my girlfriend of four months, who I initially thought was EIE. Then I thought about IEE. I didn't see how me, an SLE, and her, my activation partner, could possibly be incompatible, given my fantastic relations with two EIEs who I deem my best friends, as well as possibly two other EIEs who I consider to be good friends. On top of this, other EIEs I've met I am instantly drawn to.

Now, when I first met my girlfriend, I was instantly drawn to her. This, I've been thinking, is because I saw Fe and Ni in her and liked it.

I read the intertype relations on socionics.us a few days ago, particularly the activation and superego ones, and I was surprised by just how "good" the superego relations could look. In fact, it struck me as being highly accurate in describing our relations and some of the reasons they ended.

So, can superego relations look hopeful to start with? More over, could a relationship be successfully had for four months before it started becoming obvious that what she wanted and what I had (Te and Si) I simply didn't value, and vice versa? Or is it impossible that it could last so long without my recognising that she was clearly from a different - opposite - quadra, and thus other factors must be responsible? FTR, she is definitely IEE or EIE. It's not even worth considering other options.

[The Exception]

I haven't had much luck with my superego type. They tend to rub me the wrong way without them meaning to. I wonder if they feel the same way about me.

[smilodon]

I had an ESE friend in high school, and it seemed like we would be bffs, but then when we hung out about a year ago, it was clear I had gone seperate from my class, which was primarily Alpha, with a few betas and deltas thrown in. I can only think of one other person who I would guess as gamma. BTW, my class had 34 kids in it.

[Gilly]

People have married their conflictors; I'm sure it's possible to even have a successful marriage with a super-ego. It's also plausible to have a bad relationship with a dual or activator. There is more to people than Socionics; with that in mind, type her objectively, look at what actually caused the breakup and determine whether it had to do with Socionics or something else, consider what other things might have caused it, and you will have your answer.

[07490]

Umm, I think that IEE-SLE Super ego relationship is one of the better Super-ego relationship as least if you compare EIE/LSE which I think it would have been one of the bottom. From a general observation I have seen in surface, SLE/IEE gets along very well, just like how super-ego relationship mentioned that both partner has a warm relationship initially, like you also have with your ex-girlfriend. I can even see both of them hooking up instantly especially if they both have the same enneagram type. because they seek your 7th and 8th functions which is strong but that you don't value it, and vice versa, you get a commonly warm reception if you guys try to engaged with each other, pushing the relationship, all at glance its very attractive, with EIE you might not experience this and you might even find your self holding back because there is too much energy by both your side that you want to calm a little down or activate other(if both are in the mood), while one being a dynamic and one being static you can see that they are not really in the "rhythm" as you, but once its activated energy just bills up, with two static types that would be different.

[jewels]

I dated an ESTp a few times and thought he was an ISTp because he was fairly quiet. Because of that I was more giddy than usual and probably appeared a bit Fe-ish. I imagine he probably thought I was more INFp-ish than I am (as I can come across that way if I'm a bit shy). I'm not INFp-ish at all though. So I sorta saw the end coming quickly when I realized that and stopped going out w/ him. I think we would have had mutual respect and some boredom as well. Also, both are somewhat "showy" types in different yet similar ways, and I think it's better that only one person prefer behind the scenes to the spotlight.

He seemed to be a Ti subtype, which also probably made him seem more quiet.

All in all, I get along w/ ESTps just fine, as I seem to have quite a few around. But they're not like my "ideal" that I will doodle in my notebook about. More that I respect what they're doing and admire their Se, and wish I could be that commanding, but not enough to try.

Is Shrek an ESTp btw? The way that Shrek is so good hearted is something I see in ESTps.

But also, like others said, there are so, so, so many factors in relationships beyond socionics. Just someone's energy or vibe can either mesh w/ yours or repel you. Or how fast they walk or the way they say certain words or the way they smell (a DNA match/mismatch is what you're smelling I've read). And so all of these things can be pointing "good things this way! ---->" But they might not be a socionics match (which of course isn't the only factor). I've now taken a new approach. Now I just look at a person and if I don't immediately think "aww!" and feel sorta warm n fuzzy like when I see a puppy, I don't want to date them. That's my usual response to types like ISFps or ISTps or more compatible types. Their expressions make me think "aww!" (inside my mind of course, I don't actually say that). So maybe that approach would help? Good luck Break ups suck

[Warlord]

My dad on mom are SeTi and NeFi, they're divorced. The descriptions seem correct, it's a relationship that seems good at first, and works for a while. But then turns sour, and it can turn to very sour.

Is Shrek an ESTp btw? The way that Shrek is so good hearted is something I see in ESTps.

Shrek is an animated character in a romantic childrens story. Not in the least comparable to real life SeTi's, especially considering relationships. If his type even is SeTi.

[tiny_dancer]

Yes, I think super-ego can look pretty good. Many times for me it's looked better than duality.

I get along pretty well with SLEs. We typically work well together. I appreciate their action-oriented nature. It pulls me out of my indecision, and usually proves that all my worrying wasn't that big of a deal. Overall I think I'm a bit too cautious for them. Sometimes I've mistaken their venting for intention to act, which had worried me a good bit in the past. I get anxious about upsetting the apple cart and the results of those actions. Sometimes there's validity to it; sometimes there isn't. Usually things turn out fine either way.

We can balance each other in an odd way. Their point of view is quite different from my own, which has caused me to grow quite a bit. But it's rather painful to acknowledge that my way of operating has its weaknesses, and I'm unable to really do much about it. It's sort of looking for the 'good advice' of duality and finding a version that I can't really live up to and don't always agree with anyway. That probably made no sense.

[Ezra]

Looking back on the situation, I realized that I was acting in a manner similar to my mother: doing things for other people in order to be needed, and trying to fill a void of disconnection in the relationship, instead of focusing on the real matter, which was whether or not we worked together as regular people and as friends with no strings attached. It was about expectations of what romance and a relationship should be, some of which were unrealistic and unnecessary. I think women tend to appreciate romantic gestures and use it as a gauge to decide how much you care that they're in your life. But they don't like having to tell you those things, because then they feel like you're just placating them and it hasn't arisen from your genuine sentiments.

God, that's a mindfuck

Yeah that's it, you've got it, tiny_dancer. That's exactly how she was thinking. Something else I forgot to add was that she said to me (at least a few days, possibly a week, before we broke up) that she wanted - needed - someone who couldn't possibly live without her. Yes, it reveals an insecurity on her part, but also I basically said straight to her that I could not and would not fulfil that role. I said something like "well, I don't think I could ever not live without someone..." - she was vulnerable, and I'm completely stable, and so it doesn't quite work. (I just hope to god not all women think how you said they think at least to the extent that my ex did. I hope there are women who are a bit more secure and recognise that I can live my life without them, as much as I might love them.)

Krae, you are so negative....

But he's right. I didn't realise until going back and reading about the various relations that the only one that really does have no problems is duality. Mirror relations are generally okay, but clearly they're not going to be much better than just for friendship (same with activation, both of which I must say make fucking good friendships). The most problematic interquadra relation is clearly identity. Too much competition.

In other words, what should you take from socionics? Two lessons: (1) your best friends (real and potential) - we're talking about the most fulfilling - are going to come from your quadra and (2) your happiest and most successful relationship will be with your dual.

[tiny_dancer]

I just hope to god not all women think how you said they think at least to the extent that my ex did. I hope there are women who are a bit more secure and recognise that I can live my life without them, as much as I might love them.

I think age and experience mellow those anxieties out. (Hopefully)

[Mattie]

I do think there's an innate attraction to SeTi for me, for some reason... I feel like we both know we're rather different from each other and that's kinda exciting. We have similar energy levels and can go out and do stuff easily, though what we like to do can be rather different. I always feel like, though, it's something that will eventually explode. But the thought of someone being so different is alluring, but not lasting. I haven't dated an SeTi yet, only flirted and went on a couple dates. It was easy to tell we were expecting very different things from each other, or, relationships over all. Well, at least, easy for me to see.

[Slacker]

I used to be very drawn to SLE types. It was a bad bad thing. And the things she complained about - particularly you not fulfilling her Si needs and acting like a caregiver - do sound IEE-ish and are the same types of things that would bother me.

I'm sorry things didn't work out for you

[Trevor]

Gulenko said somewhere that superego relations are stable only when both parties share the same level of activity, i.e. both active or both passive.

[Ezra]

Ezra I think it's really cool that you tried so hard to do those caregiver tasks. That does show a lot and I'm sure she appreciated that. But, if she is IEE, and insecure, then she probably was looking for indications that you cared about her as much as she cared about you. I agree the "not being able to live w/o" someone does sound unhealthy, but it's also a cry for "please say you care about me a LOT!" That sort of demand would make me uncomfortable too, if you don't feel as invested as she does.

However, that cry for "please let me know you care!" is sort of what IEEs do in varying ways, and the caregivers don't really get pissed off fulfilling that. It is sort of demanding I guess. And it is a lot of work for people who don't enjoy that sort of thing.

I have had guys try to give me what I want, but it's done in kind of a mechanical way and it does make me question if they really care. I had an ENTp try to do all of the caregiver stuff and he exhausted himself basically and had to end it. Back then I didn't even know what a "caregiver" was, but I remember he made me a nice dinner one night and then looked completely depressed and tired. It ended shortly after. It's just really hard to give what you don't want to give.

Ezra, it really does sound like she may be IEE from the description. IEEs are weird because despite being super independent/wanting to do things our own way/being busy, we are also very concerned that people accept us (the ones we are close to) and we are looking for an Fi-connection where we feel safe. The indications that is in place can be caregiver-type actions, and also words, etc. She was looking for indications that Fi-safety net was there so she could relax that your connection was strong, and for whatever reason that wasn't there for her. So even if you carried out those actions, other aspects of that may have been missing that caused her to feel uncared for. Or maybe she was more invested or in love than you were? It's hard to tell.

For whatever reason she could tell that how you were naturally wasn't going to be enough to create that Fi-connection, and she didn't want to instruct you how to do it because she felt it would be too much "work" for you and unnatural and exhausting for you. That's how I interpreted it anyway. And if that's the case, I would just let it go, because she can see incompatibilities down the line (even if you can't see them yet).

Just as a sidenote about caregivers, they really do fit so well w/ IEEs...I had an ISFp ex, and if I was even slightly upset or stressed about something he could sense it, just by my body language (even if I was trying not to show it) and he woudn't let it go until I'd talk about it extensively (which would bore many other types -- would prob bore me as well) and he'd listen to every word and hug me until I felt completely better. Other types (such as ESFps) would listen for a while, but then get bored and expect me to just feel better on my own, which I was OK w/. But I admit that being catered to like that was really nice (and indicates to an IEE that you do care a lot). So it's more than just the tasks, but it's that understanding that the caregiver is there to sort of cater to you when you need help w/ something or feel bad, and the "help" is given w/o resentment or feeling put upon, just totally neutrally.

Thanks for the insight, jewels. I think you're right; the kind of commitment she wanted I just couldn't give. As much as I loved her, and she me, she wanted more of the kind of appreciation to which you refer, and which I simply could not give. Part of it is "manly" in the traditional sense of the term, but I think a significant amount of it has to do with my being a Beta, someone who simply does not value the kind of reassurance she wanted from me. Not only this, but I couldn't even give it.

A further interesting point I just realised was that when we were walking somewhere once, she told me that she'd been talking with her best friend about what I could offer her in terms of a relationship. She told me "I don't think you'd really know what to do, for example, if my grandma died [someone to whom she is very close]". I told her she was absolutely right, with the many Fi PoLR descriptions that I've read in mind as I told her. This would suggest that the kind of comforting which didn't come naturally to me she'd find in a Caregiver, as you point out in your analysis of the SEI.

However, just out of curiosity and similarly related, do you believe an SLI could provide this kind of comfort?

But super-egos just don't work on the long term. Even as friends, it gets boring and awkward. Not enough glue.

I hope this isn't completely true. I want to remain friends with her. I think she's awesome and she thinks the same of me.

On some level, though, I think we could never really be great friends. That is confined to Beta quadra () for me.

Gulenko said somewhere that superego relations are stable only when both parties share the same level of activity, i.e. both active or both passive.

What do active and passive mean in this context?

[tiny_dancer]

However, just out of curiosity and similarly related, do you believe an SLI could provide this kind of comfort?

lol Well, my grandmother DID die, and my SLI boyfriend had nothing to say, not even offering a hug. Which at the time made me think, "Gee. Thanks. Why did I tell you again?"

I think the lack of reaction came across as not giving a damn about ME, which is not necessarily true. It's more like not knowing an appropriate response for the situation.

My ILI father is similarly lost when it comes to emotional things.

[Ezra]

lol Well, my grandmother DID die, and my SLI boyfriend had nothing to say, not even offering a hug. Which at the time made me think, "Gee. Thanks. Why did I tell you again?"

I think the lack of reaction came across as not giving a damn about ME, which is not necessarily true. It's more like not knowing an appropriate response for the situation.

My ILI father is similarly lost when it comes to emotional things.

Next question: how does this affect your relationship with the SLI? Is it a negative trait which you have learned to accept, or something that you deem as being not that important i.e. something about the SLI you can eventually get over?

[tiny_dancer]

Next question: how does this affect your relationship with the SLI? Is it a negative trait which you have learned to accept, or something that you deem as being not that important i.e. something about the SLI you can eventually get over?

Well, he and I aren't together any more for a zillion reasons. He was the first SLI I ever dated, and maybe there was just too much to bridge, each of us being pretty set in our respective NF - ST ways. I know several SLIs who think that everyone should be as stoic as they are. Guess it just depends on their life influences.

That sort of problem has never come up with myself and my father, and it hasn't surfaced between me and my female SLI friends.

I'm not sure I'd classify it entirely as a permanent trait.. I think people can learn to adapt in areas they aren't naturally strong in. I mean, sensing and thinking aren't my strong suits, but I have certainly learned to manage my finances more intelligently and take care of myself in a million other ways that aren't my natural inclination. Why should STs be exempt from learning "rule of thumb" gestures of caring, even if they're not always going to pick up on it immediately?

What I was looking for was just a hug. Really nothing more than that. There's not that much you can do in those situations other than just be there to listen if they need it.

But being in a relationship that is devoid of that is very lonely. Like you're with someone but still dealing with the entire world wholely on your own.

[jewels]

lol Well, my grandmother DID die, and my SLI boyfriend had nothing to say, not even offering a hug. Which at the time made me think, "Gee. Thanks. Why did I tell you again?"

I think the lack of reaction came across as not giving a damn about ME, which is not necessarily true. It's more like not knowing an appropriate response for the situation.

My ILI father is similarly lost when it comes to emotional things.

Ouch that situation would have really bothered me. Wouldn't it depend on the person though? For instance, I know two INTjs and one is somewhat "lost" socially and often says completely the wrong thing, where as the other is extremely outgoing and socially savy (though underneath it is very INTj).

I wouldn't handle that well at all, as far as a SLI not giving any feedback or even a hug. Wow.

I just have a hard time believing that SLIs could be that uncaring. I dated one for only a short time, but he was very willing to listen to me bitch about various things. I remember telling him about a crappy work situation and I said something really mean about a boss. Then I said "sorry, that was really mean" and he was like "No, she is a ____. That's really evil what she did." And that was a good response in my opinion.

I mean, let's picture Tom Cruise back in his Top Gun days. I can definitely see him being understanding/caring is someone's mother had died. He would at the very least hug them.

It just seems like duals should be able to give each other what they need. So why wouldn't they be able to give this?

[UDP]

It just seems like duals should be able to give each other what they need. So why wouldn't they be able to give this?

I wonder if an LII would be comfortable with giving Tom Cruise a punch in the face?

:tongue:

[Creepy-male]

I just have a hard time believing that SLIs could be that uncaring.

I don't think it's uncaring, it could equally just be not knowing what to do, being faced with, you know, someone's relative dying. That's usually not something that [hopefully!] happens too frequently.

I experienced this recently, and I sort of froze up for about a half hour figuring out what to do/say, due to the shock. Compare to something which hit me significantly less hard, like finding out my chem teacher's father died, and left me with enough mental resources to offer her an air hug. The former situation was just too much of a shock, being that I was a lot closer to the person involved. Such is the difference between chem teacher and BFFFL

I suppose it shows, rather, that the SLI cared; as opposed to demonstrating that he didn't. I don't know if my experiences are comparable though.

[jessica129]

lol Well, my grandmother DID die, and my SLI boyfriend had nothing to say, not even offering a hug. Which at the time made me think, "Gee. Thanks. Why did I tell you again?"

I think the lack of reaction came across as not giving a damn about ME, which is not necessarily true. It's more like not knowing an appropriate response for the situation.

My ILI father is similarly lost when it comes to emotional things.

I would've hugged ya...and bought ya some chocolate or something

superego's look really promising in the beginning but you quickly get hurt. I couldn't be in a relationship with one again.

[redbaron]

I know I've talked about this enough, but since the topic keeps coming up & it's my life, I'll share some more. SLE's ex was IEE. They we're married for 8 years before they split. They loved & admired one another but at the same time shared different values & fought constantly. Throughout their whole marriage the topic of divorce was the norm, but the ENFp was the one who was always determined to keep them together (Fi? ).

After the SLE met me (at that point he had started openly dating other people as if he were single, and she knew this ) something clicked. We fell in love even though we knew we shouldn't have. He realized that things flowed a lot more naturally with us & being together was much easier. He then realized want he really wanted in a relationship & what he was really compatible with. At first I REALLY wasn't down with it. I wanted him to go back to his marriage & even tried to drop him a few times. In his eyes that wasn't happening. he separated from his wife & continued to be persistent . Blah. He's divorced now, but I don't blame myself. They had no kids. Better now than later. It would have been worse years down the road.


Anyway, suprego can be great & you can really admire the person, but it will be a lot of work, and probably not worth it in the end.

Sorry for the crappy post. Sending it from my phone

Better to split before kids enter the picture, for sure. my friends who are married (INFj and ISTj) have twins and they do admire and respect each other. But she told me they fight a lot and they simply don't expect that much from marriage, other than complete commitment. Don't get me wrong--they love each other. But they get a large portion of their needs met elsewhere, from their careers and other friends. It's a different *sort* of marriage than some people want. So, while they've made it work for them, it's a different flavor.

[Jimbean]

I am soooo attracted to my super egos, it is not even funny .

I gotta try it out sometime, I don't give a **** what anybody says.

[Trevor]

What do active and passive mean in this context?

Tbh, i don't know. I don't feel like investigating the issue at the moment. Here's the link(it's in russian, apparently). the link

[Ezra]

Tbh, i don't know. I don't feel like investigating the issue at the moment. Here's the link(it's in russian, apparently). the link

Neither do I really now you've shown me that.

[redbaron]

I'm late to the convo, but I just wanna say that I think it's really cool that both you (Ezra) and your girlfriend were able to acknowledge and pinpoint exactly what your issues are/were and recognize honestly that although you love each other, you can't ultimately give one another what you need. Made me totally laugh though because the things she was saying she wanted were exactly the things that my husband gives me that I don't care about!! UGH. My husband is the best caregiver ever. And I try to appreciate him but I know full well that there are women out there who crave what he is and I simply don't.

and fwiw, I don't need or want the type of reassurance it sounds like she's looking for. You just need to find an IEI.

[baittoman]

FWIW, I'm often instantly drawn to IEEs. They seem so elegant and in control of their words and how they move people around them, and it's very attractive. Then, I try to be friendly with them and show a bit of myself, and my natural inclination at the time could for example be to make some self-ironic jokes, or somehow show a bad side of me, not sure why, but it feels like a friendly thing to do, and then they'll sooner or later look at me with insecurity and I'll dislike their lack of feedback (thinking of it as judgemental, but maybe it isn't) and then it's end of relation.

I think I sort of know that feeling. When you're with your super-ego, it's like they're really awesome, and somewhat alluring. So you do something to "impress" them, to elicit a reciprocity, but it just seemed like they were kind of turned off by whatever you did. Then you back away, and then they seem to act more friendly, actually doing what you tried to do at first, trying to establish a relationship with this "cool" person. You don't return the favour, they get annoyed again and leave, and then they suddenly seem more interesting again, and you once again approach them.

It's a vicious cycle. Well, something like that.

[tiny_dancer]

FWIW, numbers 2 & 3 were also my "problems" with my dual ex. I'm not entirely sure whether they're type related, though, because I've heard numerous women of all types gripe about their husbands' lack of attention to things that are important to them.

Looking back on the situation, I realized that I was acting in a manner similar to my mother: doing things for other people in order to be needed, and trying to fill a void of disconnection in the relationship, instead of focusing on the real matter, which was whether or not we worked together as regular people and as friends with no strings attached. It was about expectations of what romance and a relationship should be, some of which were unrealistic and unnecessary. I think women tend to appreciate romantic gestures and use it as a gauge to decide how much you care that they're in your life. But they don't like having to tell you those things, because then they feel like you're just placating them and it hasn't arisen from your genuine sentiments.

God, that's a mindfuck

Guys have their own expectations, I suppose, but I can't really speak to what those are.

She said this because, besides the giving aspect, what was happening was that she was trying to change me. She thought that if this continued, eventually it would breed resentment and hostility from me, tiring of her changing me constantly. We agreed that while at the moment I could change some of the things about me, in the long run, I'd begin to hate her complaining.

This actually sounds the most like an IEE statement. I've actually said that to some of my exes. The rest of it seems more male / female, though obviously generalized a bit.