More very obvious 1:1 comparisons between Socionics and Alchemy

**Park** · 12-19-2008, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by Loki

you should re-type yourself according to it haha

Wanna switch?

**Ritella** · 12-19-2008, 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by Augen der Taube

I wish everyone would do what Loki did with actually trying to rework the model ... this whole project I am doing would evolve into something more than just I understand and would involve more people.

why haven't you realized yet that the issue is not understanding? we GET it. in fact, we're completely aware that it's gibberish.

and why is your avatar and profile out of control? please change it back. thank you.

**marooned** · 12-19-2008, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by Winterpark

Wanna switch?

I have nothing to do with it!

**ZTCrawcrustle** · 12-20-2008, 03:18 AM

Augen der Taube?

First, I think that may be bad grammar. You probably wanted "Augen des Taube".

Actually, it fits. Your name means "The Pigeon's Eyes".

**Gilly** · 12-20-2008, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Winterpark

Delta sounds boring.

Beta sounds like fun.

That's because Delta is boring. To Betas

**Park** · 12-20-2008, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by Gilly

That's because Delta is boring. To Betas

haha

Creepy-Pied Piper · 01-24-2009, 09:29 PM

Removed at User Request

Creepy-Pied Piper · 01-24-2009, 10:45 PM

Removed at User Request

**Angel von Himmel** · 01-24-2009, 10:55 PM

The last thread was closed on account of immature morons who fail to see the point in giving any good input when you mention the words "socionics" and "alchemy" together. Until this thread Cyclops and ZWcrustie were the only ones to give any decent input. So, iy is great that there are people here interested in this sort of stuff. I may post here more often after everything between subterranean and the board is transferred when I see this being discussed more openly. I get a good feeling when people atleast try to discuss these things like mature adults.

Angel von Himmel: it is clear for me that the number 3 plays a great role in the dynamics of the world (like 4 for the structure), as the rock, paper and scissors. but i think they apply to different contexts, it is unclear for me if the twelve signs actually have a relevance.
i couldn't follow your diagrams, could you put there some instructions like: what to look for, how to follow, what represent "+" and "-"?

I think by "+" and "-" symbols you are referring to one of my early diagrams. The plus represents extroversion and the minus represents introversion.

Probably the most accurate char I have now is this one, although it lacks emphasizing some important details. You can follow this chart to make comparisons between socionics, the zodiac, and the indian tattwas.

When doing comparisons with the chart it is quite easy to see that socionics is really the same thing as the zodiac, just various parts renamed and applied differently. They both use a 360 degree circle with 40 of the degrees representing two elements or functions. This is evidenced by looking below.

You can test this by reducing quadras down to their base functions according to type.

Alpha: ENTp, ISFp,ESFj,INTj -

,

,

,

Beta: ESTP, INFp, ENFj,ISTj -

,

,

Gamma: ENTj,ISFj,ESFp,INTp -

,

,

Delta: ESTj,INFj,ENFp,ISTp -

,

If you can compare that to the Spring,Summer,Fall,Winter seasons on the Zodiac as represented by the colors red,white,yellow,black it is obvious that there is a 1:1 comparison, they are the same thing.

This can be further proven by knowing the following. Various signs are 180 degrees from eahc other on the zodiac and represent conflict. You can take the signs as they represent a socionics type by base function and find conflicting partners. I'll give you an example.

Aries is fire sign and Scorpio is water sign and 180 degrees apart.
Aries represents

for fire and Scorpio represents

for water.
Aries represents ENTp and Scorpio represents ISFj.
Aries is in the season Wet and Scorpio is in season Dry.
ENTp is in Alpha quadra and ISFj is in Gamma quadra.

Go through and do the same for the rest of the type and it is 100% obvious that socionics is the zodiac.

Follow the chart below.

**ZTCrawcrustle** · 01-25-2009, 12:23 AM

Holy Master Above - not to ruin your day or anything but Aries is opposite Libra (just look at your own chart). Oh, and I believe the elements themselves are all grouped together in the Zodiac. Aries, Taurus, and Gemini are the three types of Fire; Cancer, Leo, and Virgo - the three types of Earth; Libra, Scorpio, and Sagittarius - the three types of air; and Capricorn, Aquarius, and Pisces - the three types of Water. (Each triad has some connection to the element they represent; this is obvious for some of them, less obvious for others as it is based on ancient conceptions of the constitution of certain objects.) You might have to rework your graph.

Anyway, ephemeros, neither of your Fire correlations works for Aries. Aries (and Zodiac Fire) represents burning passion. Not thinking nor

nor

really fit as well as pure

. Libra is the embodiment of Air. It is highly intellectual, but standoffish and elitist. No one element describes Libra, but many types would fit under it.

Creepy-Pied Piper · 01-25-2009, 03:24 AM

Removed at User Request

**Angel von Himmel** · 01-25-2009, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by ZTCrawcrustle

Holy Master Above - not to ruin your day or anything but Aries is opposite Libra (just look at your own chart).

The chart is 100% correct ... however, I would not necessarily go by it to gauge degrees the signs are to each other. And Aries is not opposite Libra, it is opposite Scorpio on this chart.

I think your confusion is that in astrology Aries and Libra are opposites, but socionicswise this would be a super-ego relationship. Apparently in astrology it is counting

and

as conflicts, and technically that would be correct.
Although, I am not sure I would agree with the modern astrological interpretation that scorpio and aries are best matches. I think they are interpreting that on the basis that they are assigned the same metals. In older alchemical texts they are conflictors.

Creepy-Pied Piper · 01-25-2009, 04:42 AM

Removed at User Request

**ZTCrawcrustle** · 01-25-2009, 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by Angel von Himmel

The chart is 100% correct ... however, I would not necessarily go by it to gauge degrees the signs are to each other. And Aries is not opposite Libra, it is opposite Scorpio on this chart.

I think your confusion is that in astrology Aries and Libra are opposites, but socionicswise this would be a super-ego relationship. Apparently in astrology it is counting

and

as conflicts, and technically that would be correct.
Although, I am not sure I would agree with the modern astrological interpretation that scorpio and aries are best matches. I think they are interpreting that on the basis that they are assigned the same metals. In older alchemical texts they are conflictors.

What? At some point you actually have to admit the possibility of a mistake, stop, and look at your own chart.

Even in this altered version, Aries is opposite Libra. Aries is 1; Libra is 9. Think of the seasons: Aries ends in mid-March, Libra in mid-September, a six-month difference. Aries is a cardinal sign, Libra is a cardinal sign (again exactly six notches apart).

Aries and Scorpio are only 150 degrees apart. If the conflict relationship is not a full half-circle, why is it Aries and Scorpio that are conflicts and not Aries and Virgo?

If by opposite, you mean on the bottom chart, then you are using a vertical dividing line, by which Leo and Cancer would be opposites. Otherwise, Aries and Libra are opposite.

ephemeros - No. Extroversion does not equate to passion.

especially happens to disregard passion. You can make more or less a case for Ne and Se, but I would argue that it is always the affect of another element that leads them to being passionate. Stormy passion, burning passion, drowning passion, staunt passion - all different types of

.

**Angel von Himmel** · 01-25-2009, 10:20 AM

What? At some point you actually have to admit the possibility of a mistake, stop, and look at your own chart.

I can not admit to a mistake that is not there. The chart demonstrates exactly what it is suppose to demonstrate. It is suppose to demonstrate that you can take the tattwas and get all of the types lined up in their exact quadras and right across from polar conflicting opposites. It succeeds in this purpose and I have no clue why you are trying to read things into the chart that do not exist.

Aries and Scorpio are only 150 degrees apart. If the conflict relationship is not a full half-circle, why is it Aries and Scorpio that are conflicts and not Aries and Virgo?

Same answer as above ...

Creepy-Pied Piper · 01-25-2009, 11:53 AM

Removed at User Request

**ZTCrawcrustle** · 01-25-2009, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by ephemeros

try to see beyond your prejudgment: passion refers to many things. even on wikipedia, it is a paragraph saying "Passion can be expressed as a feeling of unusual excitement, enthusiasm or compelling emotion towards a subject, idea, person, or object."
"passioned Fe" is a common stereotype, it has a strict sense and it probably refers to Extrovert Feelers in general.
looking around, to the extroverts i typed in real life, the passion top would look like:
1: EIE, 2: IEE, 3: SEE, 4: ILE, 5: ESE, 6: LSE, 7: SLE, 8: LIE.
the "fire" element deals with a type of reaction, not its intensity. the drive manifests in different ways and there is no way to tell if Te or Se drive is lower than Fe or Ne, as long as external image is created by at least drive+self-restraint. Se and Te have a strong drive, but they are controlled because their IE are balanced (Extoverted .x. External).
Fe simply bring a trait of expressing one's emotions, more acute in EIE then ESE because of the language skills. who's to blame, Freddie or Adolph?

First, I do not trust any wikipedia definition. Second, the definition clearly explains that "Passion can be expressed as a feeling of unusual excitement, enthusiasm or compelling emotion towards a subject, idea, person, or object."

types are actually detached from their interests, which is one of the reasons they are at odds with

types; the definition you yourself used does not fit them at all. The rest looks like gibberish. Your list is very off, horrendously off (even if I do not point out that there is no way to actually make a gradation of passion among the types). IEEs, LSEs, and LIEs mostly should not be there, and you've completely ignored "passionate" introverts (who I would say usually are much more passionate than the three I prior mentioned) LSIs and SEIs.

**ArchonAlarion** · 01-25-2009, 04:06 PM

Why can't you guys just start from scratch and make a new system instead of trying to make alchemy and astrology fit in to socionics?

Just forget that shit, start from scratch, and if you see correlations after then fine, but it'd be easier than what you're doing now.

Creepy-Pied Piper · 01-25-2009, 11:59 PM

Removed at User Request

**Angel von Himmel** · 04-18-2009, 11:52 AM

Creepy-Cyclops · 04-18-2009, 12:34 PM

Good stuff Angel Von, this is definitely an improvement. The next stage I think is to remove all the blue from the image above and you will almost have a clean sheet there

**Angel von Himmel** · 04-18-2009, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Cyclops

Good stuff Angel Von, this is definitely an improvement. The next stage I think is to remove all the blue from the image above and you will almost have a clean sheet there

Like this?

Yeah, it took me a while to figure out that the simplest way to describe the theory would be to make a mandala. Here I was making all these large charts people had to fumble through.

Creepy-Cyclops · 04-18-2009, 01:01 PM

Yes it looks like the plans for a concert hall now.

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