Fe PoLR: how does it show in ISTps and INTps?

[Words]

I dunno, i'd say that it's kinda making use of Fe, so not necessarily "compensating".

I don't notice your Fe polr so i'm useless here

BabyGiraffeOut

*swirls cape and disappears into the night*

A certain person who I won't name unless they want me to (didn't confirm with them) mentioned this is what SLIs do then I get hissy when people don't like my not so funny jokes or am I not very good at it. Lol the shame

Well if this is being the case I think to myself - hmm do I change doing this then become more SLI non emotional type (less easy to relate to for instance) or improve on it or something else.

I have some other ideas but I may expand on them at some other point if the thread keeps going.

Thanks Refi

[Contra]

I think insecurity about whether the group is in good spirits or not is just a weak Fe thing in general. However, I think it almost points to Fe role more than Fe polr. Not trying to contest your type or anything, but I usually feel very outside of the group spirit. Like if everyone is pissed at each other or everyone is uncomfortable I don't really feel it or care that much, but I don't know if thats the case with other Fe polrs or if it's just me.

[strangeling]

I consider my Fe PoLR to be a reluctance in desiring to change the emotional atmosphere. I'm greatly aware of how people are feeling and really don't see the point in trying to mess around with people's emotions. I'd rather make note of what's going on with people so that we can deal with any issues they may have and create a dynamic where we help each other. Fe types want me to drop all that and seem to think they can create a substitute for interpersonal chemistry by having an emotional impact on people; they essentially want me to do like they do, but they don't realize that it means I'll have to act it, that's it's not something I could ever enjoy, even if good at. So reluctance and frustration when it's criticized as important...

[InvisibleJim]

I think the sentiment that point expressed was bad socionics driven by his Fi polr.

[Words]

I think the sentiment that point expressed was bad socionics driven by his Fi polr.

I had thought about this but in my eternal naivety I find myself giving others the benefit of the doubt.

Can't win cause if I don't then I don't listen is the feedback lol.

[InvisibleJim]

I had thought about this but in my eternal naivety I find myself giving others the benefit of the doubt.

Can't win cause if I don't then I don't listen is the feedback lol.

Cats go meow
Cows go moo
Immature ILEs and SLEs go 'you aren't listening to feedback' when attempting to game an outcome.

[Encrustacean]

Cats go meow
Cows go moo
Immature ILEs go 'you aren't listening to feedback' when attempting to game an outcome.

^This is some type of logical fallacy used as a rhetorical device (but I don't feel like looking up which one).

Also if someone's bugging you why don't you take it up with them directly

[ashlesha]

We were having a chat on shoutbox about PoLRs and I mentioned this:

"I make jokes and try to make sure everyone in a group i am in is happy and in good spirits, i wonder if that's me trying to compensate for Fe PoLR I dunno"

I thought i'd put it out there on a thread for feedback on Fe PoLR and for suggestions on how to handle it, what if anything I should do different etc.

you use more Fe than i do then

but polr is conscious and ignoring isn't. you could probably attribute this to whatever the hell you want, really.

[mu4]

I have posted and talked about what I've said quite extensively and Jim want to make a thing of it with what he says but it's really just some observations I've made. It makes sense and can be investigated for validity. That is all.

The basis of my viewpoint on vulnerable function expression in the context of my whatever statement I made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfectionism_(psychology)

The base function is a area of normal perfectionism. 4 Dimensional, confident, valued and something fundamental to one's self-identity. It is a inert, evalutatory, and accepting function and thus stubborn, judgmental and perceived as almost "objective".

The creative function and role function are contact, situational functions which are tools used to work with society, I won't go into too much here. The creative is a area where one may aspire to superiority and the role is acclimating oneself to social norms.

The vulnerable function is a area of neurotic perfectionism due to the anxiety this function creates in the individual, there are many life situations where we necessarily use our vulnerable function to create relationships, produce work, socialize, cook, and whatever task and analysis one must do which requires the engagement or at least simulation of this function.

And in the act of engaging or simulating the tasks of this functions creates opportunities by which the vulnerable function can be criticized, when it happens to be perceived poorly by other individuals. This criticism is painful and can create a hostile reaction from the individual criticized which if engaging with individuals who react negatively in return can create a feedback loop of criticism and eventually devolve into conflict and disharmony.

I have noted this specific process occur for Words in the chat box.

1. Words makes a joke to join the socialization
2. Lungs, me, Pers, others tell him off and get annoyed at him
3. He lashes back
4. Conflict esclates

I'm not going to make a judgement on who is at fault in these conflicts, but they do occur and will occur in the future.

These are just observations I've made of behavior, and I've tried to explain them. Go test them out or something.

[Persephone]

Oh this is actually another Words' typing thread

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

No Fe polr person I've ever known does that, they always just act stern/super logical. It would be painfully awkward for them to do that sort of thing.

More generally it could just be a loving person with a warm heart that genuinely cares that other people are feeling well... or it could be an insecure person that is trying too hard to avoid conflict and think they can solve problems by 'everybody just being nice all the time.' (an ideal, but not very realistic) So maybe some sort of enneagram 9 rather than socionics.

[Aylen]

Oh this is actually another Words' typing thread

Perhaps the answer is too well hidden.

6. Extroverted ethics

SLEs find themselves unable to adequately raise an emotionally dull atmosphere, which is why they greatly appreciate another individual proficient in this function. SLEs naturally gravitate towards warm, cheerful atmospheres. If an SLE makes a social move that doesn't get the emotional response he expects, he will feel uneasy or offended e.g. if no one laughs at a joke he tells.

In large groups or groups of new acquaintances, SLEs sometimes inadvertently estrange themselves from everyone else, which may give off a negative impression. The SLE may assume this contrary attitude in order to seek Fe while preserving the atmosphere of the group. If another individual shows acceptance of the SLE, he will immediately brighten and join the now warmer emotional mood. Alternatively, if the SLE fails to receive the desired emotional cues, he will further distance himself from the situation, highly averse to "being a drag" to the group dynamic.

There seems to be an "emotional contradiction" with the SLE; there is a constant internal struggle to both reveal to others their true feelings and a desire to guard themselves from adverse people or situations. He finds it extremely difficult - almost unnatural - to express his deepest feelings about an experience he's had. SLEs try to avoid looking vulnerable, weak or dependent, which is why they appear to be such closely guarded individuals. SLEs will, like any other logical type, attempt to keep their feelings under control and subordinate to their reasoning. They refuse to let their emotions complicate professional relationships, and make a conscious effort to maintain the same emotionality with all.

SLEs are unable to suppress the manifestations of their moods, and thus greatly appreciate individuals who can deal with their sudden, uncontrollable outbursts of emotions. For many SLEs, expressive activities such as acting, musical performance or even religion serve as ideal "ethical vents", helping to give them the emotional release they struggle to find in other areas of society.

[chemical]

One can use stuff like this for instance:

His emotional state depends on how he is treated by others. Feels depressed, if others do not grant him attention, if nobody responds to his proposals and objections. If he is in poor mood, do not try to comfort and cheer him, but leave him alone with his thoughts of express indirect sympathy. In dealing with strangers, he can be polite, behave as a well-mannered and intelligent person. Has a diplomatic streak; can work on reconciling the interests of all parties. To close interpersonal distance and strike up a friendship, he jokes, behaves in a playful and unrestrained manner. However, if the other party does not respond, he stop his attempts at rapprochement.

Gulenko's overall depiction.

Estimates attitudes towards himself by displays of emotions. Boisterous, intrusive, emotions he finds irritating; they have a subduing and depressing effect on him. In extreme situations, or when he feels hidden antagonism, he can openly express his annoyance, fly off the handle and make demands in a sharp manner. If his state is poor, he transforms it into black humor. Can deliver a short, acerbic remark. His gravitation towards other people is once again dependent on his current mood. In high spirits he can even be obsessive and intrusive; in poor mood he withdraws and rests in seclusion.

also is from Gulenko. (On INTp)

Short answer from me is that much as in enneagram, where I don't like reducing a type to a bunch of traits, I think it is better to allow for a lot of variability in the exact traits, and note the polr is just the last point of the 4-element cycle, and you tend to mis-estimate what exactly is required there to keep things flowing smoothly.

[chemical]

I think it is fair to say polr is not something you ignore; you either work at it compulsively or at least note it with irritation or should acknowledge its polr-ness somehow (it is the conscious point of low control). What you're like "whatever" about would seem more the ignoring function.

[Aleksei]

We were having a chat on shoutbox about PoLRs and I mentioned this:

"I make jokes and try to make sure everyone in a group i am in is happy and in good spirits, i wonder if that's me trying to compensate for Fe PoLR I dunno"

I thought i'd put it out there on a thread for feedback on Fe PoLR and for suggestions on how to handle it, what if anything I should do different etc.

This isn't vulnerable. vulnerable is characterized by a simple refusal to deal with people's feelings, mostly via either just ignoring people or getting out of their way when they get too intense. xLIs respond to admonitions related to their attitudes ( feedback), but not really to being included, much less trying to proactively include others.

"making jokes to make sure everyone is happy" strikes me as a proactive response of the type you'd encounter in a - extrotim type -- any Alpha or Gamma extrotim.

[Persephone]

This isn't vulnerable. vulnerable is characterized by a simple refusal to deal with people's feelings, mostly via either just ignoring people or getting out of their way when they get too intense. xLIs respond to admonitions related to their attitudes ( feedback), but not really to being included, much less trying to proactively include others.

"making jokes to make sure everyone is happy" strikes me as a proactive response of the type you'd encounter in a - extrotim type -- any Alpha or Gamma extrotim.

Fe in Gamma?

[The Martrix]

Fe in Gamma?

Could be Fe-Role in an LIE.

[Aleksei]

Fe in Gamma?

People's subdued elements actually play a pretty major role in their life; particularly the demonstrative and the role. For Gammas, manifests as an enforced ideal (connection to ) that keeping positive is a good "attitude" to have. That's why, for instance, LIE descriptions tend to paint them as very upbeat.

[Olimpia]

Looks like this.



(I type him SLI, but ofc not just because of that gif.)

[Chae]

Looks like this.



(I type him SLI, but ofc not just because of that gif.)

This is gold, it looks like he just spotted an impressive man bun!

[Chae]

Left - ESE
Middle - IEI
Right - SLI

[wasp]

Fe PoLr is like... "hey burt, push your girlfriend off the bridge and we'll love you forever!" [xLI loves his girlfriend] "no."
Fi PoLR is like... "hey ernie, push your girlfriend off the bridge and we'll love you forever!" [xLE can't even remember his gf's name] "ok!"

[para]

Revival: How is Fe PoLR different between ILI and SLI?

[Number 9 large]

Revival: How is Fe PoLR different between ILI and SLI?

It isnt

[para]

It isnt

I mean: How does Fe PoLR get affected by Ni/Se, Si/Ne valuied difference? It doesn't?

[Number 9 large]

I mean: How does Fe PoLR get affected by Ni/Se, Si/Ne valuied difference? It doesn't?

Not really

[myresearch]

Revival: How is Fe PoLR different between ILI and SLI?

They can show similar characteristics. SLIs tend to be more sarcastic when they display Fe bursts. ILI tend to complain about their situation and problems when they display Fe bursts.

[Alomoes]

Don't ask me to try and console anyone who is not being irrational. I can console someone who is being irrational by proving that what they believe is incorrect. I did that once to a person that believed they couldn't win. I corrected him by saying it was unlikely that we'd win, but if we at least try...

Although that might not be rationality, I think you get the gist. Also I didn't meantion it was unlikely that we'd win, because that's counterproductive to winning.

[Tenebris]

Yeah my Fe tends to come out in a emo fashion, and I can't deal with serious emotions without turning them into a fucking joke.

[The Reality Denialist]

Ethical dilemmas are not the way to describe it. How a person directs ethical functions is another matter and the end result is not determined by those dimensionalities.

But yeah, Fe PoLR usually means huge awkwardness in emotional expression (painful conscious function) and being afraid of it in extreme cases whereas Fi PoLR is more afraid of how others link themselves in relation to them (painful conscious function) so they might speak in terms of judgments that do not really match relational qualities.

[Danali]

they hate hugs

[Beautiful sky]

Seriousness and serious tone

[Adam Strange]

Tales of the Fe-PoLR:

I was talking to an ILI who was hired to do some analysis for us last Friday at work and he said, "Adam, I am much smarter than you."

I thought, OK, maybe you are and maybe you aren't, but let's see where this goes.

"The University in Tehran where I was an assistant professor is 45th in the WORLD!"

I thought, Good for them. But what does that have to do with us?

"I have written a book and here is my list of published papers", and he shows me his phone and scrolls down several pages too fast to read. Plus, I don't read Farsi.

"BUT, I will never be as successful as you! Do you know why not?"

"Uh, no. Why not?"

"Because I dive deep into a subject. I focus right down to the finest details." He made a V with his hands. "I always get the right answer. But do you know why I am not successful, like you?"

I waited. He was going to tell me no matter what I said.

"Because I am not good at waving my hands and saying 'Blaaaah blaaaah blaaaah! Blaaaah blaaaah blaaaah!'" Here he waved his hands and stuck out his tongue and was kind of spraying saliva.

"Let me say that I have the highest respect for you. You are a great manager and you are a diplomat! But managers are good at saying 'Blaaaah blaaaah blaaaah! Blaaaah blaaaah blaaaah!', so I will never be a good manager."

"Actually", I said, "I'm kind of a terrible manager. What I am is a leader, and I can also meet with almost any kind of person and get along with them."

"Yes! You are a Leader. And THAT is why you will be successful."


Plus, of course, the fact that I can say 'Blaaaah blaaaah blaaaah! Blaaaah blaaaah blaaaah!'

[CosmicCat]

Plus, of course, the fact that I can say 'Blaaaah blaaaah blaaaah! Blaaaah blaaaah blaaaah!'

I think he was confusing you for one of the adults from Charlie Brown....

[Number 9 large]

Tales of the Fe-PoLR:

I was talking to an ILI who was hired to do some analysis for us last Friday at work and he said, "Adam, I am much smarter than you."

I thought, OK, maybe you are and maybe you aren't, but let's see where this goes.

"The University in Tehran where I was an assistant professor is 45th in the WORLD!"

I thought, Good for them. But what does that have to do with us?

"I have written a book and here is my list of published papers", and he shows me his phone and scrolls down several pages too fast to read. Plus, I don't read Farsi.

"BUT, I will never be as successful as you! Do you know why not?"

"Uh, no. Why not?"

"Because I dive deep into a subject. I focus right down to the finest details." He made a V with his hands. "I always get the right answer. But do you know why I am not successful, like you?"

I waited. He was going to tell me no matter what I said.

"Because I am not good at waving my hands and saying 'Blaaaah blaaaah blaaaah! Blaaaah blaaaah blaaaah!'" Here he waved his hands and stuck out his tongue and was kind of spraying saliva.

"Let me say that I have the highest respect for you. You are a great manager and you are a diplomat! But managers are good at saying 'Blaaaah blaaaah blaaaah! Blaaaah blaaaah blaaaah!', so I will never be a good manager."

"Actually", I said, "I'm kind of a terrible manager. What I am is a leader, and I can also meet with almost any kind of person and get along with them."

"Yes! You are a Leader. And THAT is why you will be successful."


Plus, of course, the fact that I can say 'Blaaaah blaaaah blaaaah! Blaaaah blaaaah blaaaah!'

how is this fe polr lmao

[End]

Tales of the Fe-PoLR:

I was talking to an ILI who was hired to do some analysis for us last Friday at work and he said, "Adam, I am much smarter than you."

I thought, OK, maybe you are and maybe you aren't, but let's see where this goes.

"The University in Tehran where I was an assistant professor is 45th in the WORLD!"

I thought, Good for them. But what does that have to do with us?

"I have written a book and here is my list of published papers", and he shows me his phone and scrolls down several pages too fast to read. Plus, I don't read Farsi.

"BUT, I will never be as successful as you! Do you know why not?"

"Uh, no. Why not?"

"Because I dive deep into a subject. I focus right down to the finest details." He made a V with his hands. "I always get the right answer. But do you know why I am not successful, like you?"

I waited. He was going to tell me no matter what I said.

"Because I am not good at waving my hands and saying 'Blaaaah blaaaah blaaaah! Blaaaah blaaaah blaaaah!'" Here he waved his hands and stuck out his tongue and was kind of spraying saliva.

"Let me say that I have the highest respect for you. You are a great manager and you are a diplomat! But managers are good at saying 'Blaaaah blaaaah blaaaah! Blaaaah blaaaah blaaaah!', so I will never be a good manager."

"Actually", I said, "I'm kind of a terrible manager. What I am is a leader, and I can also meet with almost any kind of person and get along with them."

"Yes! You are a Leader. And THAT is why you will be successful."


Plus, of course, the fact that I can say 'Blaaaah blaaaah blaaaah! Blaaaah blaaaah blaaaah!'

Now that gave me a chuckle. He apparently perceives how and why you succeed yet feels imitating your method is "below him" or some such. Yeah, see, I wanna win. I will thus do what wins insofar as it does not violate my morality.

I guess that's because I lack the stereotypical ILI's sense of pride bordering on hubris. This one obviously lacks humility. I'm the type that'd let you lead in broad strokes while I refine your generally good idea into a quote unquote "actual" good idea. Y'know, a bold move in warfare that looks or sounds dumb to anyone who doesn't know how that shit works and even to some who have some idea, but context is everything in those situations.

A so called "dumb" move could be the work of divinely inspired genius in the right circumstance and context. A critical weakness of those who rely too much on or is that they truly may believe they know all there is to know. That they think they have it all figured out. Yeah, ya might. But someone might have a critical piece of info you don't even know you don't have.

This concept is why I'm an eternal long term optimists. I know my ultimate enemy is completely severed from objective reality. That means they will, no matter what other variables you care to include into the equation, they will make a critical mistake that will cost them everything. Their hubris, true and ultimate beyond any I can even attempt to imagine, will be their undoing. All I have to do is not follow them into that abyss .

[Alomoes]

I don't know, that sounds like a retarded way to say all managers are retarded, Adam. Being a manager, you might get, uh well, offended.

[Adam Strange]

I don't know, that sounds like a retarded way to say all managers are retarded, Adam. Being a manager, you might get, uh well, offended.

I don’t remember saying, nor do I believe, that all managers are retarded.

I think that competence in a job varies across a spectrum.

I do think that managers and leaders have very different skill sets. I also don’t get offended when someone criticizes me for what I do. They are often right, and I take that into consideration and I try to improve.

[Adam Strange]

Tales of the Fe-PoLR:

Last Thursday I had lunch with a female IEI-Fe who has a PhD in Astronomy and who works at a tech company as the manager of one of its two divisions. She is smart as hell and is incredibly good with customers. She thought we'd make a good marriage, but I just want to be friends, because.....Victim-Victim and IEI-LIE is not a good foundation for intimacy and durability. However, we have lunch a lot because we comprise a mutual admiration society.

Her counterpart at the company (and its owner) is an ILI-Te who graduated from MIT. The guy is smart, but he is afraid of anyone with any amount of Se. He actually gives prospective hires a test and if they have strong Se, he doesn't hire them. However, he still needs Se somehow, so some guys get through.

I said to the IEI, "I heard that (the ILI) fired another employee. I thought that employee was so valuable that he'd be there forever."

The IEI replied "(The ILI) gave the employee an ultimatum, and the employee quit. I get so tired of this. He hires someone and they are so perfect that they can walk on water. I train them and they begin to get productive, and then one day (the ILI) decides that they are crap and fires them and I have to clean up the mess. I have to start over, training someone else."

"Yes, it seems really counter-productive. You should consider becoming an actress, like you originally wanted. You'd be so great at that. I've seen you charm an audience of techies."

"The problem is that I'm too poor to quit for any length of time. I don't make enough money. And I get so frustrated at (the ILI). For a guy who's so smart, it is horrible to see him alienate customers. And he does it time, after time, after time." She threw up her hands in frustration.

"Well, he's not going to change. It's who he is. But you could get a job anywhere."

"I know. I'm the one who brings in the money."

But, of course, she needs support before she can leap off into nothingness on a wing and a prayer.

She needs a great SLE. Preferably with a PhD.

[sbbds]

Tales of the Fe-PoLR:

Last Thursday I had lunch with a female IEI-Fe who has a PhD in Astronomy and who works at a tech company as the manager of one of its two divisions. She is smart as hell and is incredibly good with customers. She thought we'd make a good marriage, but I just want to be friends, because.....Victim-Victim and IEI-LIE is not a good foundation for intimacy and durability. However, we have lunch a lot because we comprise a mutual admiration society.

Her counterpart at the company (and its owner) is an ILI-Te who graduated from MIT. The guy is smart, but he is afraid of anyone with any amount of Se. He actually gives prospective hires a test and if they have strong Se, he doesn't hire them. However, he still needs Se somehow, so some guys get through.

I said to the IEI, "I heard that (the ILI) fired another employee. I thought that employee was so valuable that he'd be there forever."

The IEI replied "(The ILI) gave the employee an ultimatum, and the employee quit. I get so tired of this. He hires someone and they are so perfect that they can walk on water. I train them and they begin to get productive, and then one day (the ILI) decides that they are crap and fires them and I have to clean up the mess. I have to start over, training someone else."

"Yes, it seems really counter-productive. You should consider becoming an actress, like you originally wanted. You'd be so great at that. I've seen you charm an audience of techies."

"The problem is that I'm too poor to quit for any length of time. I don't make enough money. And I get so frustrated at (the ILI). For a guy who's so smart, it is horrible to see him alienate customers. And he does it time, after time, after time." She threw up her hands in frustration.

"Well, he's not going to change. It's who he is. But you could get a job anywhere."

"I know. I'm the one who brings in the money."

But, of course, she needs support before she can leap off into nothingness on a wing and a prayer.

She needs a great SLE. Preferably with a PhD.

What was the Se test, Adam?