Timothy McVeigh

[strrrng]

Because socionics is about what elements we use to interact with our surroundings, what elements those close to us appreciate, and what elements we prefer to surround ourselves with. I never said: Eminem is a rapper; he must be Se-valuing. I said he is constantly surrounded and is best friends with Se-valuing people. I also said that he himself is not Se-valuing because he obviously possesses strong intuition and that he consciously and constantly uses his emotions. Thus, he must be an Se-valuing, intuitive, ethical type, which means Beta NF.

What Se-valuers does he surround himself with? His home dog 50 cent is Si-ISFp. Dre is probably Se-ISTj, obie trice is Ni-INFp, but I'm curious who you have in mind. And having strong "intuition" ≠ Ni/Ne. The term "intuition" is so loosely and poorly defined that it is idiotic to attribute it to a cognitive function. Likewise, emotions ≠ Fe/Fi. The nature of said thing is of a much broader magnitude than a method of processing information. That was a very simplistically flawed chain of deductions you just went down.

[ZTCrawcrustle]

Well, the theory is just a background. It's sort of like where people use a black light to search through the dark and eventually certain things become more apparent. kind of. Like, ok, I know these premises, etc. etc. and these traits apply here. But you have to actually see it. Then you really know. And functions are very integral things, so their manifestations won't be perturbed by peoples' transient moods, acts, etc. (i.e. some ESTj machismo trying to act "Se"). Actually the black light thing makes sense. Because it's not as if you're blindly searching in the dark; you have the light as a sort of general support tool thing. But it's also sort of about letting the patterns evince themselves.

The theory is not a background. Assuming people use unvalued super-ego functions on a constant basis is plain wrong. You have jumped the gun on linking VI and socionics types. Consistent action is fueled by the valued elements, so if you can identify the motivation behind consistent action, you can pretty much exclude certain types and quadras.

[strrrng]

The theory is not a background. Assuming people use unvalued super-ego functions on a constant basis is plain wrong. You have jumped the gun on linking VI and socionics types. Consistent action is fueled by the valued elements, so if you can identify the motivation behind consistent action, you can pretty much exclude certain types and quadras.

Except TeSi is not in his "super-ego," hence how he is delta ST. And you cannot always draw a direct link between actions and mental processes. So, using emotion and thinking abstract is not intrinsic to beta NF's. Stop simplifying.

[ZTCrawcrustle]

What Se-valuers does he surround himself with? His home dog 50 cent is Si-ISFp. Dre is probably Se-ISTj, obie trice is Ni-INFp, but I'm curious who you have in mind. And having strong "intuition" ≠ Ni/Ne. The term "intuition" is so loosely and poorly defined that it is idiotic to attribute it to a cognitive function. Likewise, emotions ≠ Fe/Fi. The nature of said thing is of a much broader magnitude than a method of processing information. That was a very simplistically flawed chain of deductions you just went down.

He constantly surrounds himself in an Se air. As the rest of the rappers, he finds maintaining and projecting an Se-image highly important. I've never taken a look at other rappers, but it would not surprise me if you used VI to identify them too. (With Dre, I at least believe you landed in the right quadra and club.) Among all of those people, you think he is a LSE or a SLI? Stop kidding yourself.

I'm using intuition in the socionics sense.

Likewise, the active manipulation of emotions and past life is precisely what Beta NFs do. Most rappers can use emotion, but only in the sense of base emotion usually subconsciously carrying over into the song. They use mostly anger, hate, and lust (I'm talking about the generic rappers). Eminem's songs possess very strong Ne and Ni intuition, as he goes all over the board, touching on far-flung issues. My LSI friend once described rap as just talking, but rap is poems in songs, in other words a rapper is already associated with a lyricist. His outward emotions and inner sentiments constantly come out in his songs, indicating an ethics type.

[ZTCrawcrustle]

Except TeSi is not in his "super-ego," hence how he is delta ST. And you cannot always draw a direct link between actions and mental processes. So, using emotion and thinking abstract is not intrinsic to beta NF's. Stop simplifying.

Socionics is about how mental processes generate both input and output. Actions can be interpreted as having different motivations, but those motivations will almost definitely be linked to valued elements. Some consistent actions cannot be linked to certain socionics types. What I suggested was that his consistent action was FeNi related.

EDIT: This last sentence is amazingly obvious if you compare any manifestation of Beta art to any manifestation of Delta art.

[JRiddy]

The theory is not a background. Assuming people use unvalued super-ego functions on a constant basis is plain wrong. You have jumped the gun on linking VI and socionics types. Consistent action is fueled by the valued elements, so if you can identify the motivation behind consistent action, you can pretty much exclude certain types and quadras.

I agree that consistent action and patterns are based on valued functions, but I don't think that hip-hop culture by any means *requires* Se, and I don't think that Eminem "uses" Se at all in any meaningful way. Not all expressions of power or aggression of dissention are based in Se at all. In fact, I see a lot of Deltas "acting tough," in some exaggeration of normal Delta ST "protection" caretaking.

In fact, by the logic you are using, any one who knowingly strikes a rebellious image is necessarily Beta NF. This doesn't consider any cultural factors that might lead a person to thinking that image is cool, nor does it take into account the subtleties of the theory, which is based on mental information processing and not the most easily graspable characteristics of outward behavior.

I can admit to possibly relying too much on VI, but you need to admit to relying too much on some very precise reifications of socionics models.

[ZTCrawcrustle]

I agree that consistent action and patterns are based on valued functions, but I don't think that hip-hop culture by any means *requires* Se, and I don't think that Eminem "uses" Se at all in any meaningful way. Not all expressions of power or aggression of dissention are based in Se at all. In fact, I see a lot of Deltas "acting tough," in some exaggeration of normal Delta ST "protection" caretaking.

In fact, by the logic you are using, any one who knowingly strikes a rebellious image is necessarily Beta NF. This doesn't consider any cultural factors that might lead a person to thinking that image is cool, nor does it take into account the subtleties of the theory, which is based on mental information processing and not the most easily graspable characteristics of outward behavior.

I can admit to possibly relying too much on VI, but you need to admit to relying too much on some very precise reifications of socionics models.

I base my typings completely on the theory and agree with you that constantly reevaluating the thought processes of individuals is necessary. However, in this case, I do not see myself making the argument you attribute to me in the second paragraph (if you mean Eminem; for the revolutionaries, there must be other quadra types among them but they are overimposed with Beta ideology.) What ideology one was taught at an early age is also a good determinant for how one turns out in regards to function use.

I think anyone who wants to take on a rebellious image is probably Fe-valuing or a Gamma that sees profit or benefit in it. Actually being Beta (favoring Se, Ti, Fe, and Ni) is what separates most real revolutionaries from the rest. Then again, not even all Betas are either revolutionary or have the actual balls required for it.

I also do not think Eminem uses Se. Compared to other rappers, his videos are sporadic, his lyrics touch on a wide variety of points that he takes issue with. He likes to act and he likes to act many different roles in his own videos. Neither is he embarassed to have himself insinuated doing embarassing things, like licking a gigantic turd, stuffing his ass in another guys face, wear superhero outfits, etc. I think he uses a lot of Ne and is Fi-devaluing, but he only likes to make himself out to be completely and utterly irrational. In interviews, he is pretty rational and has been described as "a gentleman" in a newspaper article several years (it was in the context of he spend a night with some girl without rapping her).

I do not think that a Delta would try to make himself look crazy (crazy as in mentally unbalanced without Se-craziness, although he does use a lot of violence and violent references). Having Se in their Id, Delta STs would actively deny and try to limit Se. A quote by Edison was something to the effect of "At the very least, my inventions never killed anyone." This is different from Eminem saying "why do you attribute teenage violence to me? I just sing songs." Having been raised by a Delta ST and around Delta STs, I can also say that they are pretty intolerant of cursing and loud noise. I can definitely see where the image of "tough guy" comes from. Surely Delta STs are also not the only ones who would try for that image.

[Disturbed]

McVeigh was probably a super mentally unstable LSI-Se.

Edmund Kemper was a super mentally unstable LSI-Se for sure.

Buford O. Furrow Jr was another one.

And don't forget Eric Rudolph and Jayda Fransen.

There are many LSI who are quite mentally unstable and moralistic; LSI often have some demons. Delta STs aren't real common in my experience, they're pretty uncommon among white people.

[youfloweryourfeast]

Delta is the live-let quadra, and doesn't value Ni while this man methodically planned and executed everything. I think ILI makes more sense than delta st.
Contray LSEs though being rare know how to work for a life and are not really prone to dark thoughts. 1d Fi and 1d Ni.
SLIs on the other hand are different.I agree ST types can be murders ect.,like Ted Bundy is a ST type, but I don't see ST for Timothy.