Alpha vs Beta Social Groups

[strrrng]

that's the thing about it.
i definitely used to use this sort of hateful tactics alot, too. when i was younger. and my isfj-se sister and INFp-Fe brother used them all growing up on one another mercilessly. I think everyone does it a little, but like i said it's a matter of degree.

I hate them. If you want to push me, push me. I will respect someone who comes up and hits me in the face much more than someone who spreads rumors behind my back about how they are going to hurt me. And if I was actually in the wrong, I would just sort of be like "ok, it's settled." It's like that with any situation: just be fucking direct. I hate people who try to create little angles, nooks and crannies that they can slip through and run their insidious plans. There's a difference between genuinely skillful manipulation (which always requires some indirection) and being a passive-aggressive, evasive pussy.

[crazedrat]

Yeah. Each side fuels the other, really. I mean, you have two people sitting at the table, and the basic premise is domination; and that one won't give in to the other. So they both kind of elevate one another into this struggle, neither of them giving up. And each try harder to put the other in place. What exactly 'in place' means is somewhat irrelevant. It's kind of like watching dogs fight. You will swear pitbulls will kill eachother before one lays down and shows its stomach and neck to the other.
i think it's true it's usually either gamma or beta. it's really a carnivorous way of operating. kind of makes me think of delta and alpha as the leaf eaters ..

[Satan]

Yeah. Each side fuels the other, really. I mean, you have two people sitting at the table, and the basic premise is domination; and that one won't give in to the other. So they both kind of elevate one another into this struggle, neither of them giving up. And each try harder to put the other in place. What exactly 'in place' means is somewhat irrelevant. It's kind of like watching dogs fight. You will swear pitbulls will kill eachother before one lays down and shows its stomach and neck to the other.

yeah it's kind of fun isn't it.

[crazedrat]

i duno. how old are you?
you will eventually become so tired of it. if you're around it enough

[strrrng]

Yeah. Each side fuels the other, really. I mean, you have two people sitting at the table, and the basic premise is domination; and that one won't give in to the other. So they both kind of elevate one another into this struggle, neither of them giving up. And each try harder to put the other in place. What exactly 'in place' means is somewhat irrelevant. It's kind of like watching dogs fight. You will swear pitbulls will kill eachother before one lays down and shows its stomach and neck to the other.

Interesting. I think you're right that there really is no 'place'—or even goal. You just keep pushing, upping the intensity each time, so it's not about how much one can do, but how much they can take. This is why I love any combat situation (verbal or physical), because it's like a threshold test to see just how much shit you're willing to endure. A pitbull fight is a perfect analogy for this. It's not about winning and moving on; there is one fight (as it always is in life), you have nothing (and everything) to lose, and you go to the end. This is why most people avoid confrontation all-together, because they don't want to risk anything. I'd rather die putting it all out there than live knowing I held back.

yeah it's kind of fun isn't it.

yep

[crazedrat]

right, but there's a difference between walking around with your eyes wide open looking for a fight, and facing one head on when an obstacle bars your path; and that's the difference between it being a strength and a flaw. some families get so caught up in this sort of fight mentality that it never stops. life is one perpetual fight. there's nothing constructive about that sort of environment, and the goal of the whole thing is forgotten

[strrrng]

ESFj's panic that everyone is enjoying themselves

God yes. This is like a cardinal trait of ESFjs (both subtypes). You take the control of the EJ temperament, and the focus on the emotional dynamic within the external context, and you have this pedantic "HOW ARE YOU" bullshit going on. And fuck lol, if something gets the slightest bit perturbed...they just go batshit crazy, but try to hide it under small facial mannerisms that connote anxiety, and will sort of do some "Ok, so what should we do now?!" to refocus the situation or whatever. It seems like a huge waste of energy to me. Sure, I like the Fe current, and will occasionally guide it to make sure the atmosphere stays lively, but I don't know? It doesn't seem to be as much of a consistent necessity for beta NF's as it is for alpha SF's. Like, we'll just inject some Fe jolt and let it run it's course, while Se dynamics ensue and whatnot. Maybe the more self-contained Ni context accounts for this; actions are just done from a standpoint of implicit continuity.