Alpha vs Beta Social Groups

[FDG]

if you're funny and okay with making fun of people, you will probably do okay in a beta group hah.

ahah, yeah, good characterization

[Ezra]

I actually feel the same way about the Beta hierarchy thing around here, and I'm Beta.

I think the hierarchy aspect of Beta social groups is more prevalent amongst Beta STs, especially males of these types.

I don't seek groups out; I don't give a fuck about being part of something bigger. Don't conflate Ti/Fe with the social instinct of the enneagram. As far as real friends go, I maintain a small handful of like-minded people.

Agreed.

It's great for weeding out the weak; and I don't wait around for anyone.

So is military training, and oh, how we love that!

[unefille]

I think Beta groups are by nature never very large: they're far too selective. Elitism is the opposite of 'mass involvement', after all. It's about identifying like from unlike and the criteria for being 'like' is quite particular.

[Ezra]

I think Beta groups are by nature never very large: they're far too selective. Elitism is the opposite of 'mass involvement', after all. It's about identifying like from unlike and the criteria for being 'like' is quite particular.

What about the LSI army?

[ArchonAlarion]

I'm a social instinct and an Alpha and I don't find groupthink attractive. Maybe when I'm being silly I'll do it, but its usually playful mocking. In serious matters I tend to be a contrarian. So I don't think thats's fair to generalize...

Also, the size of quadra groups is overrated in my experience. Then again it might just be my recent setting.

[redbaron]

Betas (+LSE), on the other hand are "all night long" kind of people, they have a special warmth (including SLE) and an eagerness for meeting and closeness. often i leave them with the desire to meet them again as soon as possible (after i finish my things). i don't have their energy and "betray" them often by leaving "early" but this doesn't change anything, they're always there and welcoming.

Whenever my SLE friend has a party, he emphatically states that he expects that no one will leave until a certain time and pressures those of us who he think might stay even longer, to stay as long as possible. Amuses me. I love it cause it feels so forcefully welcoming.

with Alphas i prefer to do serious things, plans, shopping, geek things, etc. with them i discuss politics and about humanity in general. they are my base of help when being in a difficulty. i find a spontaneous fun with them, too, because my way of showing off is caught best by them without misunderstanding or harsh criticism (just bit the ESE). i can mock any Alpha about anything for no matter how long without getting mad at me. the introverts (SEI and LII) show the same openness towards me even if i become [edit:] an asshole, they even look entertained by this and never get offended.

i feel most easily to talk with Betas about feelings, relationships, dreams, etc. when i talk about these with Alphas they are pretty puzzled and have a "hey, get serious" attitude.

Yup. I once started talking about my feelings about my life and regrets, etc with my SEI friend and he was very puzzled. I quickly realized that wasn't the sort of topic he could really handle. But he's so much fun to tease and banter with. There's something I love about the inclusive, fun alpha atmosphere, but after awhile, I find myself walking away from that and trying to find something stronger or more robust? I dunno. (that damn Se-seeking again....)

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[redbaron]

it happened to me before to not understand an EIE guy, we were in a club and he came to me and said: "you see me here with a lot of friends around, but you know what? we are alone on this world. you are borne alone - you die alone." i said "heh, ok" and he probably was disappointed of my lack of understanding, but later i realized what he meant. i like this, that IEI and EIE give me riddles to think about, just i can't be supportive in the discussion on the moment, they have to wait till the next time for my answer.

mercutio seems to throw out various riddles here and there also. I like that. Sometimes I need time to think about it too although usually I can keep up.

[Banana Pancakes]

democratic vs aristocratic and Se vs Ne.

IME Betas are more loud, more of a party atmosphere, and you're expected to share the emotion and intensity level of the group. They'll attack you if you go against the group or violate their rules (or force you out of the company...).

Alphas are much more relaxed, everyone can do whatever they want. It can be loud and party-ish, but it's different. You can also make fun of each other playfully, in a way Betas would take wrong (they make fun of each other too, but it's in a forceful way that they somehow take as less threatening ).

Perhaps +Fe and -Fe apply here as well, Beta is promoting as much positive atmosphere as possible, while Alpha is avoiding negative emotions.

If they like you, hanging out with Betas is FUN. For me it gets too intense after a while, though, whereas I can chill with Alphas for hours.

[Banana Pancakes]

yeah, lol! eh, i'm a bit more independent, the chances to make the other (me<->SLE) change his mind are 50/50.

hehe, i do that on your NFs with politics and computers for example the last time i asked my IEI-Fe friend what's his opinion about a political event, just to check what people still think, and he answered simply: "fuck you!".

it happened to me before to not understand an EIE guy, we were in a club and he came to me and said: "you see me here with a lot of friends around, but you know what? we are alone on this world. you are borne alone - you die alone." i said "heh, ok" and he probably was disappointed of my lack of understanding, but later i realized what he meant. i like this, that IEI and EIE give me riddles to think about, just i can't be supportive in the discussion on the moment, they have to wait till the next time for my answer.

Same experience with EIEs, I hang out with one a lot and he's always giving me the "fuck you!" to normal discussion material. Then he gets all introspective about life and random overall Ni themes.

Problem is he can dish it out but he CAN'T take it. I say "fuck you!" to one of his stupid inquiries and he gets all pissy and whines about why he's still friends with a jerk like me

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[07490]

If I could speak openly to them I'd say, Look me in the eye and tell me you're enjoying this. Can you speak for yourself? Why do you keep avoiding me? Where did you go? Why did you change? Do you think it's cool, idiot? It's as if all the good parts of them suddenly changed into something brainless and vapid.

After thinking about this for two minutes I would like to conclude that it has more to do with enneagram instinct than Socionics Quardra.

[07490]

MY opinion on what dolphin has said about her observation with few betas she know. I recorded through a discussion on aim with her that I think Enneagram stacking is mostly attribute to some Betas she knows which changes their dynamic of one-on-one conversation to group discussion. Also in the conversation, I think we have discussed the differences stacking and how we see relationship and group differently, how one's focus is on certain instinct and one is on another; the problem it will cost/contrast. If you wish please tell us if this is more Socionic Quardra related or if it is Enneagram stacking.

[03:28] Mpiazza000: I wanted to reply to ur post
[03:28] Mpiazza000: alpha beta
[03:28] Mpiazza000: thread
[03:28] Mpiazza000: it is without a doubt.
[03:28] Mpiazza000: so/Sx
[03:28] Mpiazza000: ur group oriented
[03:28] Mpiazza000: when you are with them one on one
[03:28] Mpiazza000: they have a strong connection
[03:28] lavendarnlemons: hmm
[03:28] Mpiazza000: feels awkward in a group situation
[03:29] Mpiazza000: so like.
[03:29] lavendarnlemons: that's so/sx?
[03:29] Mpiazza000: yes
[03:29] lavendarnlemons: what instinct stacking are you numbers
[03:29] Mpiazza000: so/sx
[03:30] Mpiazza000: Christy is too
[03:30] Mpiazza000: she also would agree
[03:30] lavendarnlemons: hmm
[03:30] lavendarnlemons: what do you think my stacking is
[03:30] Mpiazza000: it is hard to connect with people with that connection with them one on one and bring it into a group dynamic
[03:30] Mpiazza000: they are social first...
[03:31] Mpiazza000: I think you are social last
[03:31] Mpiazza000: only a social last would write a post like that
[03:31] Mpiazza000: lol
[03:31] Mpiazza000: oh i mean
[03:31] lavendarnlemons: oh
[03:31] lavendarnlemons: haha
[03:31] Mpiazza000: only a social last would neglect
[03:31] Mpiazza000: the group dynamic
[03:31] Mpiazza000: noted that they are not bad
[03:31] Mpiazza000: or whatever
[03:31] Mpiazza000: just pays least attention to it
[03:32] Mpiazza000: and with your Fi
[03:32] Mpiazza000: i would assume you think that
[03:32] Mpiazza000: that is such a hypocrite thing to do
[03:32] Mpiazza000: you talk to me in such a personal way
[03:32] Mpiazza000: but when you are with others
[03:32] Mpiazza000: the interaction changed
[03:32] Mpiazza000: it is almost like
[03:33] Mpiazza000: if i talk to same way with you like i did in one on one
[03:33] Mpiazza000: i would feel incredibly judged by so much eyes looking at me
[03:33] lavendarnlemons: oh
[03:33] lavendarnlemons: hmm
[03:33] lavendarnlemons: i can understand that
[03:33] lavendarnlemons: but idk
[03:33] lavendarnlemons: usually if you like someone enough, you're not embarrassed enough to care.
[03:34] Mpiazza000: if you say they are almost like embarrassed to care
[03:34] Mpiazza000: then they are properly
[03:34] Mpiazza000: not the right person to hang out with
[03:35] Mpiazza000: but to me even, to a certain degree
[03:35] Mpiazza000: i will feel inhibited
[03:35] lavendarnlemons: hmm
[03:35] Mpiazza000: it is almost like
[03:35] Mpiazza000: almost*
[03:35] Mpiazza000: if someone put somebody in the spot
[03:35] Mpiazza000: in a non-social way
[03:36] Mpiazza000: you can put people in a spot where there is group dynamic
[03:36] Mpiazza000: and it is acceptable
[03:36] Mpiazza000: but when an social instinct last
[03:36] Mpiazza000: do certain things it makes the social dominant feels like taboo
[03:36] Mpiazza000: again
[03:36] Mpiazza000: i don't know
[03:36] Mpiazza000: to what degree the person you know
[03:37] Mpiazza000: acts different
[03:37] Mpiazza000: when you are with them one on one
[03:37] Mpiazza000: or group
[03:37] Mpiazza000: maybe they are just out of hand
[03:37] Mpiazza000: like totally ignoring you
[03:37] Mpiazza000: idk
[03:37] Mpiazza000: tho i would never do that
[03:38] Mpiazza000: but i wouldn't know how to respond either
[03:38] Mpiazza000: either*
[03:38] lavendarnlemons: you should say all this in the thread
[03:38] Mpiazza000: feels uncomfortable
[03:38] lavendarnlemons: i think people would be interested to read it
[03:38] lavendarnlemons: i think it's a good contrast between instincts, tbh
[03:38] Mpiazza000: to make life easier i will just copy and paste this conversation
[03:38] Mpiazza000: is that ok?
[03:40] lavendarnlemons: oh
[03:40] lavendarnlemons: ok

[redbaron]

pretty interesting. I've had this experience lately with a 7w8 SLE where we'll have a certain level of familiarity when we're alone but then when we're with other people he'll sometimes ignore me and he also acts like he forgets some of the details of what we had talked about when alone. It's usually okay but occasionally disconcerting. I think I'm sp/sx but I'm not sure of his stacking but I'm thinking it might be so/sx. It's the same as dolphin is describing that he can sometimes seem a bit disapproving if I talk to him more personally when other people are around. So I've been distancing myself in those situations. It's not a huge deal actually, just something I've noticed. I'd be willing to bet it definitely does have something to do with instinct stackings. And then like once he told me something and said to kind of keep it quiet. Well then the next time I saw him, he was calling to me from across the parking lot about it when I was walking with another person. So of course then the other person was wanting to know what we were talking about so I told them a little bit about it, thinking well he must not need it to be all that quiet since he's yelling about it across the parking lot. I dunno. A bit annoying just cause I can't tell how serious he is sometimes about what he says and it confuses me.

[Satan]

What part of instinct do you think it is?

Some people that I can talk with easily in settings with a few people seem to tune me out when they get in a large group. It's as if everything was stifled by some kind of equal, relativizing force. "Group dynamics". "Groups as a whole". Like they're really far away, and a bit avoidant of direct communication. And they're a little disapproving when you address them the way you normally do. And then when they talk and answer, they're like simutaneously judging the group's reaction as a whole. It's like you kept trying to pick up something very slippery, and it kept alluding you. It feels like betrayal. They don't seem to be this way conciously though. But it's very annoying, and I want them to wake the fuck up. I always feel very uncomfortable in this kind of atmosphere.

This reminds me of this girl I knew, who seemed to be "too familiar" in groups sometimes, and too distant in distant environments...

Like generally I'll be friendlier in an unfriendly environment to people I know well. And I'll be less friendly in a friendly environment.

Also, for me, I tend to pay more attention to quieter people, and less attention to louder people. Even though I can be quite loud myself.

But it's like I will be loud with loud people, quiet with quiet people, and it's like I kind of match then shift when I want to include people.

I'm not sure what this slipperyness is about, but it may be that they're not commited socially to being part of the group, so you may have to "include" them in a way.

[Banana Pancakes]

I've noticed this with some of the NFs I've hung out with.

In groups, they're fantastic, fun, friendly, outgoing.

One on one, they're shy, introspective, boring, and i'm always like "uhhh do you just not like me?". Then in a group again they'll be all over me

[Wynch]

The key thing I notice about Beta versus Alpha groups is that Beta groups have very strict guidelines on appropriate behaviour in the group. I'm not talking about being "proper," but if you do something or say something that doesn't fit in with the group expectations then you're discarded. It's very dog-eat-dog. Nota Bene: Clubbing scene.

In contrast, Alpha groups seem to try very hard to include everyone and make everyone comfortable. The downside there is there's a kind of underlying fear of stepping on each others' toes. However, when you get a group of alphas together who are very comfortable with each other trust seems to build very quickly and there's a very constant feeling of relaxed comraderie.

[Satan]

I've noticed this with some of the NFs I've hung out with.

In groups, they're fantastic, fun, friendly, outgoing.

One on one, they're shy, introspective, boring, and i'm always like "uhhh do you just not like me?". Then in a group again they'll be all over me

not enough stimulation. you must be boring

[redbaron]

not enough stimulation. you must be boring

[Banana Pancakes]

not enough stimulation. you must be boring

That would be my first instinct but they're that way with other people too...gotta have Se I guess.

[redbaron]

That would be my first instinct but they're that way with other people too...gotta have Se I guess.

well *I'm* not that way! Hmph. (tho I do love Se....)

[Banana Pancakes]

well *I'm* not that way! Hmph. (tho I do love Se....)

Maybe I just met the wrong ones? Who knows. This is only about 3 NFs I've had this problem with.

[Satan]

Well hey, I've had the same problem before. The "on their own" behaviour is more "authentic" and they try to appear "interesting" in groups.

[Satan]

Maybe I just met the wrong ones? Who knows. This is only about 3 NFs I've had this problem with.

Shit, I find most girls are awkward/nervous/boring on their own.

Another thing to do is to keep them in groups for a while.

[Satan]

I have great fun with an ILE-Ne I know. We make ridiculous things out of trash and make up schemes. Every once in a while we try to help each other out with personal problems, but we usually can't sway each other even though we respect the other one's opinions. Maybe you're hanging out with the wrong subtypes?

Maybe he's hanging out with ENFps.

[07490]

I have great fun with an ILE-Ne I know. We make ridiculous things out of trash and make up schemes. Every once in a while we try to help each other out with personal problems, but we usually can't sway each other even though we respect the other one's opinions. Maybe you're hanging out with the wrong subtypes?

I have an overall good relationship with ISFj as well. sounds similar.