Ni polrs shamelessly ignore the consequences of their actions. Even if you explain those to them in the clearest fashion they just won't get it. I've spent maddening hours explaining consequences of th ings to an ESE, what to do and what not to do and why.. and she gets this deer in the headlights look and then acts like I'm being mean to her.
Thoughts? Well, I can't really point to any distinct thoughts that typifies Ni PoLR. I can say, however, Ni PoLR seems to be more about the inability to extrapolate patterns/trends from past experiences and relate them to future outlooks and present situations. In a sense, they are a bit hampered in their ability to get a sense of what to expect from the future. Perhaps also Ni PoLR would relate to the inability to arrange "pictures" of the past and connect them together in some new way to derive some meaning or understanding from them?
Anyways, it seems some Ni PoLRs will extensively "plan" the future to compensate. Kinda step-by-step planning, perhaps? But, these plan Ni-less plans can't really gestalt of what the future can bring. These future plans can seem isolated. They don't seem to take into account on what can move in the way of each step.
Let's make an example. Let's say an Ni person looks over the Ni PoLR's plan. The Ni person says, "Hey, there's this potential problem that can come up which could get in the way of your plan working out. This plan doesn't really plan for this." The Ni PoLR hand waves, "I'll address that if it comes up." Then the Ni PoLR person just moves on. That potential problem seems to just not be real to the Ni PoLR person. Until it happens, of course.
Maybe this is where the Ni PoLR people get help from Ne. When the crisis hits, they need to quickly think up of a number of solutions so that they can still manage to achieve their end goal.
You joke, but I could *totally* answer that as a philosophical question
Counter-question: Are you awake?
. . . I think this could be a nice example of conflict between the way an Ni person and an Si person see things. I asked this question with the idea in mind of "awake" in a philosophical sense, but an Si person would likely answer simply, "Yes." To be fair, anyone might answer simply, "Yes," but a non-Ni-valuing person would be more likely to become annoyed if I pressed for more. "No, silly, I mean are you awake (to life)(to your true desires)(to full experiencing yourself)(etc.)." That would piss them off, while it might start an interesting discussion with a fellow Ni type, so long as they were in the mood. An Si type, I expect, would almost never be in the mood.
Thanks
It came to mind because I remember my best friend in middle school was an Si type (SEI or ESE, I'm not sure) and I was super into the unconscious and deeper meaning back then. (Well, I still am, but I discuss it with a select few people now.) I would always talk about what was interwoven with immediately-observable (for lack of better words) reality, and I remember one time she said to me, "Just so you know it sounds really stupid when you talk about the 'subconscious' and all that stuff," or something to that effect, and I both had my feelings very hurt and was perplexed as to how she could think that.
Other weak/unvalued-Ni people feel similarly, IME.
Last edited by ClaudiaM; 07-15-2011 at 09:55 PM.
What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
My ESFj dad has to be in control of the situations he's in, because that's how he deals with the unknown. He's habitually really bad at seeing how (unfamiliar) situations would probably play out ahead of time, so he tries to take everything into account. He tends to take extra precautions before doing something particularly unfamiliar because "something could happen." My ISFp mom is sort of the same way, but to a lesser extent. When they get this way, I kinda have to calm them down by giving them the likelihood of any of those situations actually occurring.
Yep. Have an ESE friend who for some reason decided to take a thematic literature course at school, let us just say it did not go over well
I am also very present focused. I very easily forget things that happened in the past and don't often let them affect my present. When I think about the future I think in fuzzy optimism, like this is my rough plan I don't tend to detail it. Any details I do decide can be easily changed or forgotten, I am very fluid.
nice
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
Until the second page came up, I couldn't see any posts past rat's. Now I can.
Uniden, what you mentioned about an Si's reaction to a problem suggested by an Ni is true.
Claudia, I might answer your "Are you awake?" question if I were in a good mood, but only to make fun of the question.
What do you mean by "short-term planning," Aleksei? I admit I don't plan in detail more than two weeks ahead, but I can plan loosely a year in advance and I can plan vaguely a lifetime in advance.
On a side note, I think it's wrong to use someone's ability in a particular area associated with an information element as a way to determine their type. People can adapt to their environment, and the mind is organic.
Imo, Ni polr is just focusing on Si, as opposed to Ni, in how you approach and interact with most things in life. I don't think that people can simultaneously use Ni and Si, same applying to Ne-Se, Fi-Ti, and so on.
I've noticed patterns of behavior when it comes to Ni matters with XSEs, and they seem to come out more noticeably when they're under some kind of emotional stress. It's like the more pressure they get from life at any particular moment, the more immersed they get into the present reality and experience tunnel vision. Only those things that affect them in a tangible way are deemed important.
What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
You want a theoretical basis? Those are a dime a dozen. I thought you'd rather have a concrete basis, but here are some theoretical ones.
ENTjs and ESTjs are both s, and since it's impossible to tell the difference between and , it is also impossible to tell the difference between ENTjs and ESTjs.
ENTjs and ESTjs get enjoyment from impersonating one another and make you mistype them so they can laugh about you together behind your back.
Well yes, since type is a theoretical abstract. Fitting yourself into a type is its concrete application.
ENTjs and ESTjs are both s, and since it's impossible to tell the difference between and , it is also impossible to tell the difference between ENTjs and ESTjs.
ENTjs and ESTjs get enjoyment from impersonating one another and make you
What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
PoLR quotes from Filatova (from both LSE and ESE descriptions):
Hardly sense the passage of time.
Dislike instability and prefer to know specifically what they are going to do tomorrow, and the next day, and after that.
Tries to do everything at once.
Hate wasting time, and consequently, always busy.
May appear as conservative, solving every problem in a straightforward manner.
Try to plan everything, and deviations from their plan unsettle them.
Unwillingness to accept innovation.
edit: formatting
Last edited by Crispy; 07-18-2011 at 01:05 AM.
ILI (FINAL ANSWER)
I tend to associate the bolded more with people who value Ni over Ne. In my experience Ne valuers enjoy fluid changing situations and are happy to tackle things without a set plan, Ne ego's more so.
And call me sensitive but I also find this untrue, I've been the voice of innovation at my work place and always happy to be the first to try new things.Unwillingness to accept innovation.
It's both actually, to say more than that they're both Field Dynamics, Si/Ne's informational waves of predictability are more frequent yet less amplified; Ni/Se's informational waves of predictability are less frequent but more amplified. This basically equates to Judicious types(strengthened by Rational + Si ego), having a more externally apparent need to have control of the immediate developing processes of reality, and thus they may seem like the more predictable group out of the bunch. However, Decisive types(strengthened by Rational + Ni ego) go through the same thing, but it's less apparent because the control exercised is neither immediate, direct nor explicit, at least compared to Judicious types. They still prefer predictability, just not with so much knowledge of the small-scale inbetweens.
(i)NTFS
An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI
♫ 31.9FM KICE Radio ♫ *56K Warning*
My work on Inert/Contact subtypes
Socionics Visual Identification(V.I.) Database
Socionics Tests Database
Comprehensive List of Socionics Sites
Fidei Defensor
ESxJ can be demeaning when judging a persons character including their own. They often emphasize a person's flaws or draw toward negativity. It can be a bit shocking.
The same can be said for the future. They often have a impending sense of doom of how the world is going to turn out. that's my two cents.
Doomer culture tends to be intuitive IME.
Personal thoughts on Ni:
I don't lose my nerve as easily as I used to when it comes to the psychological effects of uncertainty, but then again I haven't really involved myself with extremely risky projects. Through some of my "research" I believe I've found ways to lessen the psychological effects of risk if I need to in the future.
I tend to be into a lot of Ni related concepts and material such as unintended consequences, second order effects, iatrogenics (action bias), black swans, systemic risks and tipping point effects.
I consider prediction success to be a issue of knowledge more than type.
IDK, I guess you could say I believe I can educate/engineer my way out of Ni troubles.
Last edited by leckysupport; 07-17-2011 at 05:43 PM.
All dickness aside, I think Ni polrs dislike the idea that events are determined. They look at it as a passive stance which, if we proactively work towards change, the path changes.. Ni looks to them like passive speculation without action and they ignore it many times. They're more interested in making things happen. And you cannot use dominant Ni and make proactive changes at the same time. Using Ni requires a detachment from things. The flipside is Ni polrs will sometimes think they can do more than they actually can. They won't admit when the course of events is on a downward trend and they can't do anything about it. They'll get perpetually stuck in the struggle to change things that aren't gona change.
They're like salmon swimming upstream, they're fighting against the current of reality.
PoLR using the wikipedia socionics Rly-Bad-At method:
Rly-Bad-At the estimation of the passage of time.
Rly-Bad-At the understanding of a course of processes in time, and forecasting.
Rly-Bad-At understanding how things may change and evolve over time and throughout history.
Rly-Bad-At being acutely aware of events that are occurring outside of the immediate perception of the moment, and seeing events as part of a continuous flow.
Rly-Bad-At perceiving the possible ramifications of future events and noticing ties to the past.
Rly-Bad-At observing behavioral patterns and assessing a person's character.
ILI (FINAL ANSWER)
Yes, it seems like they don't pay attention to dynamics of what has transpired in the past but rather will adamantly focus on all that could be in the present. The impression I get about Ne is that it has this "anything can mean anything" attitude. It's like they are seeing multiple alternative realities that make some completely wild events become possible, which to me seems absurdist. When you try to use Ni-Se and focus them on a single concrete reality, single interpretation or most likely course of events, they don't take to it well or question you on how would you know this.
Ni-PoLR brings outdated accounting textbook to bank: "Hello, it says here in this highly reputed book that you have excellent rates here. I would like to take advantage of that." "What do you mean, that was before you were born?! It's the same place! What sort of a wishy-washy establishment are you running?!"
I relate to this. Rigid prophesy in fantasy books annoys me (this may be only loosely related but i'm going to rant anyway), what's the point of reading the story if the end has already been decided *grumbles*.
Why did you stab that guy?
err prophesy made me do it .
Look I just saved the whole world from total annihilation .
Boring we already knew that was going to happen .
Also over estimating what I can get done and under estimating the time it will take (I should never do project estimates).
Actually I'm really good at estimating time, how long something will take, etc. My dad (EII) can accurately guess the time of day within 5 minutes about 90% of the time.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
For the delta protagonists of course . Anyway some are better than others...some use prophesy for some vague foreshadowing which is alright.
Yes I can see that being the case, god knows why they even try to estimate projects it's always wrong , agile development all the way baby.
it feels like having x-rays vision ... only that you don't ... but it still feels like it lol - the physical world is as if translucent
They do want advice but some sort of Ne-advice. I compare Ni to a heavy brake, which works fine on SxEs who do appreciate its inhibitive effect but not xSEs. I just don't know what this Ne-advice consists of really. I see an ILE co-worker interact with a SEI and ESE and they get all excited about something and I can't register what it is. My current strategy is to avoid saying that something is unlikely or won't work and try to keep options open.
I'm trying to understand how the Ni PoLR manifests especially in LSEs and did a quick search for previous Ni PoLR threads. I picked out a number of views across various contexts for the purpose of this discussion.
Here are a few statements as starters for debate:
1) Ni PoLR does not equal not being philosophical nor disliking the abstract, nor does it has anything to do with an inability to reflect nor learn from mistakes.
2) Ni PoLR does not equal an inability to pay close attention to their emotions and thought processes.
3) Ni PoLR does not equal being disinclined towards fantasy, mysticism, symbolism, esoterics, existential questions, etc.
4) Ni PoLR does not equal needing to correct people's behaviour nor wanting to control people.
5) Ni PoLR does not equal lack of vision and foresight, superficiality, being unable to see the big picture nor a disability to think long term.
What I have observed of myself which may be PoLR related:
1) Prioritization: What happens is that every night I make a mental note of what I need to do. In the morning, I make a general plan on what I need to do first, and go with that. I think of a list of items I need to do and want to tick it off my list as soon as possible. I get annoyed when my plans go awry due to unexpected events as this means that the items get brought forward to the following day, which delays things, so I try to keep a time buffer of sorts for these events. But if the plan goes entirely off, and I accomplish nothing at the end of the day, let's just say I don't feel very happy. Fortunately this rarely happens.
2) Estimation of time: I sometimes take on more than I can chew and tend to underestimate (sometimes severely) the amount of time it takes to accomplish a certain task. I may at times get caught up in a particular task and be unwilling to leave to the next task until I have completed it to my satisfaction, which may be interpreted as having a bad sense of time. I see it as a task that takes longer than expected to complete due to an exploration/exhaustion of the task. Even in RPG games I prefer to explore every nook and cranny, complete every quest, collect all unique items, etc over a quicker, more efficient approach of going straight for the kill.
3) What-ifs: I am in love with what-if analysis. Gives me a sense of security to know every possibility that may occur so that I may never be caught of guard in anything. I want to be prepared for every possibility and occurrence in order to prevent the negatives from occurring. Nevermind that I may end up ignoring some of these probable possibilities until it blasts right up at my face as I get caught up with stuff. Ironic.
4) Gibberish: I get annoyed when people speak senseless nonsense which makes no sense, making motherhood statements, and the serious entertainment of unrealistic ideas without thought for feasibility.
The polr function is not really a deficiency. It distinguishes what's valuable & irrelevant. The individual is consciously aware of what they consider irrelevant and why. The area of value is infact highly specialized. Often you'll see polr descriptions say a person overcompensates for their polr. Truth is they're just focusing on their priorities. Descriptions will also talk about how terrible the type is at using the polr. They describe it in these terms because they don't understand the mechanics of the function.
If I'm getting you, you're saying that we cannot view the creative and the PoLR as divorced from the other in the attempt to understand the PoLR (since strength in one area equate to weakness in another). I can see how strongly I emphasize Si in my approach, but what exactly do I miss out in terms of strength in Ni? As far as my understanding goes, Ni in this context in contrast to Si is about waiting out for the right/best/most appropriate moment to act in order to gain the most out of the least effort. Which I absolutely appreciate. If this were the case, my argument would be if there really is a right moment for anything? Why wait out when you can get it done now, though there might be an additional hassle in doing so, or even if the problem/task may disappear/not need to be done if delayed? How would one know if the problem may not grow bigger if not nipped in the bud? But perhaps I'm going rather off here since I honestly lack understanding of Ni as a function, or if what I had been attributing to Si is instead Se.
In my approach towards studying a subject in preparation for an examination for instance, I tend to want to read and master everything about it if possible. If only time were to permit, I would even read from cover to cover, chapter by chapter to gain a strong or "perfect" understanding from base up to ensure that I would not miss out on anything in order that I could answer with ease no matter the exam question. I could see how this is extremely inefficient by Ni view.
The Ni valuers I know would tend to "spotting" questions, relying on tips by professors and studying on that alone. Though I may do this, it isn't something which I feel comfortable doing and would often end up burning the midnight oil studying the "irrelevant chapters" just-in-case. It is ineffective and goes against Pareto's principle, but is an approach I can't help but follow despite its ineffectiveness. It annoys me how an LIE I know go all smug at being successful about it (passing with less time/effort), when all I see is the potential flaws of his approach if these probabilities/factors he were banking on did not manifest.
The negative end of the +/- type descriptions encapsulate the super-ego pretty well. Take a look: Source
Problems: Conservative in their tastes and habits. He does not like to admit their mistakes and compromises. Do not take criticism, even in a joking manner. He lacks diplomacy in relations. Sometimes too harsh in his critical assessments. Condemns all those who, in his opinion, insufficient quality and honest work. Avoid making compliments, praise for good work - says her norm. He does not like to talk about entertainment, a supporter of a strict upbringing. If his work is criticized by incompetent people. May flare up. With friends often exhibits arrogance and insistence. Stressoneustoychiv, particularly the unsettling situation of uncertainty. Weary of the long wait for some event. Drowning in details and getting distracted by other matters, may not have time to finish work on time. This is very painful experiences. Lacking sufficient evidence, puts the decision. Can not stand when he urged on or distract from the work. In keeping with the established rules of conduct require the same from others. At the same time, could suddenly get into a fuss, break, exercise intolerance and harshness.
ILI (FINAL ANSWER)
Thanks for the link.
I don't really like this description though, since I can identify minimally with it, unless it were to be describing how I could be like under undue stress. I could see myself flaring up and being rather nasty in such a case.
Anyhow I think what is important is how these external behaviours described relate to the model A functions, otherwise they really couldn't be attributed as type related.