Ni-PoLR -- How does it manifest in ESFjs and ESTjs?

[Creepy-Snaps]

Take Mountain Dew's existence, for example. Ponder it deeply , and you'll have a pretty good idea of what I think Ni PoLR is about.

[rat1]

Ni polrs shamelessly ignore the consequences of their actions. Even if you explain those to them in the clearest fashion they just won't get it. I've spent maddening hours explaining consequences of th ings to an ESE, what to do and what not to do and why.. and she gets this deer in the headlights look and then acts like I'm being mean to her.

[DirectorAbbie]

If you think about it, aren't all questions philosophical?

No.

Are you wearing shoes?

[uniden]

Thoughts? Well, I can't really point to any distinct thoughts that typifies Ni PoLR. I can say, however, Ni PoLR seems to be more about the inability to extrapolate patterns/trends from past experiences and relate them to future outlooks and present situations. In a sense, they are a bit hampered in their ability to get a sense of what to expect from the future. Perhaps also Ni PoLR would relate to the inability to arrange "pictures" of the past and connect them together in some new way to derive some meaning or understanding from them?

Anyways, it seems some Ni PoLRs will extensively "plan" the future to compensate. Kinda step-by-step planning, perhaps? But, these plan Ni-less plans can't really gestalt of what the future can bring. These future plans can seem isolated. They don't seem to take into account on what can move in the way of each step.

Let's make an example. Let's say an Ni person looks over the Ni PoLR's plan. The Ni person says, "Hey, there's this potential problem that can come up which could get in the way of your plan working out. This plan doesn't really plan for this." The Ni PoLR hand waves, "I'll address that if it comes up." Then the Ni PoLR person just moves on. That potential problem seems to just not be real to the Ni PoLR person. Until it happens, of course.

Maybe this is where the Ni PoLR people get help from Ne. When the crisis hits, they need to quickly think up of a number of solutions so that they can still manage to achieve their end goal.

[ClaudiaM]

If you think about it, aren't all questions philosophical?

No.

Are you wearing shoes?

You joke, but I could *totally* answer that as a philosophical question

Counter-question: Are you awake?
. . . I think this could be a nice example of conflict between the way an Ni person and an Si person see things. I asked this question with the idea in mind of "awake" in a philosophical sense, but an Si person would likely answer simply, "Yes." To be fair, anyone might answer simply, "Yes," but a non-Ni-valuing person would be more likely to become annoyed if I pressed for more. "No, silly, I mean are you awake (to life)(to your true desires)(to full experiencing yourself)(etc.)." That would piss them off, while it might start an interesting discussion with a fellow Ni type, so long as they were in the mood. An Si type, I expect, would almost never be in the mood.

[ClaudiaM]

Counter-question: Are you awake?
. . . I think this could be a nice example of conflict between the way an Ni person and an Si person see things. I asked this question with the idea in mind of "awake" in a philosophical sense, but an Si person would likely answer simply, "Yes." To be fair, anyone might answer simply, "Yes," but a non-Ni-valuing person would be more likely to become annoyed if I pressed for more. "No, silly, I mean are you awake (to life)(to your true desires)(to full experiencing yourself)(etc.)." That would piss them off, while it might start an interesting discussion with a fellow Ni type, so long as they were in the mood. An Si type, I expect, would almost never be in the mood.

Lol, that's probably a good example.

Thanks

It came to mind because I remember my best friend in middle school was an Si type (SEI or ESE, I'm not sure) and I was super into the unconscious and deeper meaning back then. (Well, I still am, but I discuss it with a select few people now.) I would always talk about what was interwoven with immediately-observable (for lack of better words) reality, and I remember one time she said to me, "Just so you know it sounds really stupid when you talk about the 'subconscious' and all that stuff," or something to that effect, and I both had my feelings very hurt and was perplexed as to how she could think that.

Other weak/unvalued-Ni people feel similarly, IME.

[Gilly]

Lol, that's probably a good example.

Thanks

It came to mind because I remember my best friend in middle school was an Si type (SEI or ESE, I'm not sure) and I was super into the unconscious and deeper meaning back then. (Well, I still am, but I discuss it with a select few people now.) I would always talk about what was interwoven with immediately-observable (for lack of better words) reality, and I remember one time she said to me, "Just so you know it sounds really stupid when you talk about the 'subconscious' and all that stuff," or something to that effect, and I both had my feelings very hurt and was perplexed as to how she could think that.

Other weak/unvalued-Ni people feel similarly, IME.

No, that's stupid people.

[ClownsandEntropy]

Ni polr have problems dealing with the momentum of a situation. What is too much influence and what is too little? When dealing with the world and other people you have to somehow take into account that things are constantly changing, people are changing, thinking, learning, what seems bad might bee good if you wait 5 minutes. Ni polrs may want to initiate what is already happening, or working against the situation, instead of waiting for a better moment when things would take care of themselves. Other Ni polrs are too relaxed, and don't understand that their input is needed to modify the situation. It can be difficult to be in sync with the flow of things happening. This is just based on my experience with Ni polr.

I quite like this.

[Aleksei]

How does it manifest in thought?

Very short-term thinking. Inability to think ahead, or plan ahead.

[Galen]

My ESFj dad has to be in control of the situations he's in, because that's how he deals with the unknown. He's habitually really bad at seeing how (unfamiliar) situations would probably play out ahead of time, so he tries to take everything into account. He tends to take extra precautions before doing something particularly unfamiliar because "something could happen." My ISFp mom is sort of the same way, but to a lesser extent. When they get this way, I kinda have to calm them down by giving them the likelihood of any of those situations actually occurring.

[uniden]

How does it manifest in thought?

Very short-term thinking. Inability to think ahead, or plan ahead.

No, this is wrong. Sometimes it can be tricky to tell ENTjs and ESTjs apart because they can both be so future oriented. But, in the case of ESTjs, after awhile you can just see how they just... fail to really include some important things in their planning aheadness.

[Timmy]

“Every sentence I utter must be understood not as an affirmation, but as a question.” –Niels Bohr (Te-INTp)

Asker>Declarer; Niels Bohr is IEI. Dude ur typing skillz are sux.

[Marie84]

For me I normally associate my Ni PoLR with not valuing hidden meaning, symbolism and yes philosophical questions. When I see a movie where this is suppose to represent that and this speaks to this persons inner desire to blah blah, I just don't care I often find I can recognize when there is hidden meaning and when something is symbolic, I just have no desire to find out what it is or why.
If I was forced to decipher such things, say for an English paper It makes me uncomfortable.
Not to be confused with concepts such as themes and messages in stories, I find these are quantifiable and purposeful and therefor don't force me to use Ni. This is true for art as well, I see it for what it is, a pretty picture I value the artists technique and skill far more than any deeper meaning associated with the art work.

Yep. Have an ESE friend who for some reason decided to take a thematic literature course at school, let us just say it did not go over well

I am also very present focused. I very easily forget things that happened in the past and don't often let them affect my present. When I think about the future I think in fuzzy optimism, like this is my rough plan I don't tend to detail it. Any details I do decide can be easily changed or forgotten, I am very fluid.

Ok, I'll try:

Ni can be seen as the momentum of a situation.

Ni polr have problems dealing with the momentum of a situation. What is too much influence and what is too little? When dealing with the world and other people you have to somehow take into account that things are constantly changing, people are changing, thinking, learning, what seems bad might bee good if you wait 5 minutes. Ni polrs may want to initiate what is already happening, or working against the situation, instead of waiting for a better moment when things would take care of themselves. Other Ni polrs are too relaxed, and don't understand that their input is needed to modify the situation. It can be difficult to be in sync with the flow of things happening. This is just based on my experience with Ni polr.

nice

[Timmy]

Asker>Declarer; Niels Bohr must be IEI. Dude ur typing skillz sux.

Lol@paradoxically making declarative statements about questions.

Why ask rhetorical questions when you can declare interrogative statements?

[DirectorAbbie]

Until the second page came up, I couldn't see any posts past rat's. Now I can.

Uniden, what you mentioned about an Si's reaction to a problem suggested by an Ni is true.

Claudia, I might answer your "Are you awake?" question if I were in a good mood, but only to make fun of the question.

What do you mean by "short-term planning," Aleksei? I admit I don't plan in detail more than two weeks ahead, but I can plan loosely a year in advance and I can plan vaguely a lifetime in advance.

[moredhel]

Until the second page came up, I couldn't see any posts past rat's. Now I can.

Uniden, what you mentioned about an Si's reaction to a problem suggested by an Ni is true.

Claudia, I might answer your "Are you awake?" question if I were in a good mood, but only to make fun of the question.

What do you mean by "short-term planning," Aleksei? I admit I don't plan in detail more than two weeks ahead, but I can plan loosely a year in advance and I can plan vaguely a lifetime in advance.

This is my experience as well.

[Lobo]

On a side note, I think it's wrong to use someone's ability in a particular area associated with an information element as a way to determine their type. People can adapt to their environment, and the mind is organic.

Imo, Ni polr is just focusing on Si, as opposed to Ni, in how you approach and interact with most things in life. I don't think that people can simultaneously use Ni and Si, same applying to Ne-Se, Fi-Ti, and so on.

I've noticed patterns of behavior when it comes to Ni matters with XSEs, and they seem to come out more noticeably when they're under some kind of emotional stress. It's like the more pressure they get from life at any particular moment, the more immersed they get into the present reality and experience tunnel vision. Only those things that affect them in a tangible way are deemed important.

[Aleksei]

Very short-term thinking. Inability to think ahead, or plan ahead.

No, this is wrong. Sometimes it can be tricky to tell ENTjs and ESTjs apart because they can both be so future oriented.

And the theoretical basis for this is...?

[DirectorAbbie]

No, this is wrong. Sometimes it can be tricky to tell ENTjs and ESTjs apart

And the theoretical basis for this is...?

You want a theoretical basis? Those are a dime a dozen. I thought you'd rather have a concrete basis, but here are some theoretical ones.

ENTjs and ESTjs are both s, and since it's impossible to tell the difference between and , it is also impossible to tell the difference between ENTjs and ESTjs.

ENTjs and ESTjs get enjoyment from impersonating one another and make you mistype them so they can laugh about you together behind your back.

[Aleksei]

And the theoretical basis for this is...?

You want a theoretical basis?

Well yes, since type is a theoretical abstract. Fitting yourself into a type is its concrete application.

ENTjs and ESTjs are both s, and since it's impossible to tell the difference between and , it is also impossible to tell the difference between ENTjs and ESTjs.

ENTjs and ESTjs get enjoyment from impersonating one another and make you

[Crispy]

PoLR quotes from Filatova (from both LSE and ESE descriptions):

Hardly sense the passage of time.

Dislike instability and prefer to know specifically what they are going to do tomorrow, and the next day, and after that.

Tries to do everything at once.

Hate wasting time, and consequently, always busy.

May appear as conservative, solving every problem in a straightforward manner.

Try to plan everything, and deviations from their plan unsettle them.

Unwillingness to accept innovation.

edit: formatting

[moredhel]

PoLR quotes from Filatova:

Hardly sense the passage of time.

Dislike instability and prefer to know specifically what they are going to do tomorrow, and the next day, and after that.

Tries to do everything at once.

Hate wasting time, and consequently, always busy.

May appear as conservative, solving every problem in a straightforward manner.

Try to plan everything, and deviations from their plan unsettle them.

Unwillingness to accept innovation.

edit: formatting

I tend to associate the bolded more with people who value Ni over Ne. In my experience Ne valuers enjoy fluid changing situations and are happy to tackle things without a set plan, Ne ego's more so.

Unwillingness to accept innovation.

And call me sensitive but I also find this untrue, I've been the voice of innovation at my work place and always happy to be the first to try new things.

[EyeSeeCold]

The things you bolded are / > / IME.

It's both actually, to say more than that they're both Field Dynamics, Si/Ne's informational waves of predictability are more frequent yet less amplified; Ni/Se's informational waves of predictability are less frequent but more amplified. This basically equates to Judicious types(strengthened by Rational + Si ego), having a more externally apparent need to have control of the immediate developing processes of reality, and thus they may seem like the more predictable group out of the bunch. However, Decisive types(strengthened by Rational + Ni ego) go through the same thing, but it's less apparent because the control exercised is neither immediate, direct nor explicit, at least compared to Judicious types. They still prefer predictability, just not with so much knowledge of the small-scale inbetweens.

[chip]

ESxJ can be demeaning when judging a persons character including their own. They often emphasize a person's flaws or draw toward negativity. It can be a bit shocking.

The same can be said for the future. They often have a impending sense of doom of how the world is going to turn out. that's my two cents.

[force my hand]

ESxJ can be demeaning when judging a persons character including their own. They often emphasize a person's flaws or draw toward negativity. It can be a bit shocking.

The same can be said for the future. They often have a impending sense of doom of how the world is going to turn out. that's my two cents.

Ahh, apparently environmentalists are ESxJs...

[leckysupport]

ESxJ can be demeaning when judging a persons character including their own. They often emphasize a person's flaws or draw toward negativity. It can be a bit shocking.

The same can be said for the future. They often have a impending sense of doom of how the world is going to turn out. that's my two cents.

Doomer culture tends to be intuitive IME.

Personal thoughts on Ni:

I don't lose my nerve as easily as I used to when it comes to the psychological effects of uncertainty, but then again I haven't really involved myself with extremely risky projects. Through some of my "research" I believe I've found ways to lessen the psychological effects of risk if I need to in the future.

I tend to be into a lot of Ni related concepts and material such as unintended consequences, second order effects, iatrogenics (action bias), black swans, systemic risks and tipping point effects.

I consider prediction success to be a issue of knowledge more than type.

IDK, I guess you could say I believe I can educate/engineer my way out of Ni troubles.

[rat1]

All dickness aside, I think Ni polrs dislike the idea that events are determined. They look at it as a passive stance which, if we proactively work towards change, the path changes.. Ni looks to them like passive speculation without action and they ignore it many times. They're more interested in making things happen. And you cannot use dominant Ni and make proactive changes at the same time. Using Ni requires a detachment from things. The flipside is Ni polrs will sometimes think they can do more than they actually can. They won't admit when the course of events is on a downward trend and they can't do anything about it. They'll get perpetually stuck in the struggle to change things that aren't gona change.
They're like salmon swimming upstream, they're fighting against the current of reality.

[Crispy]

PoLR using the wikipedia socionics Rly-Bad-At method:

Rly-Bad-At the estimation of the passage of time.

Rly-Bad-At the understanding of a course of processes in time, and forecasting.

Rly-Bad-At understanding how things may change and evolve over time and throughout history.

Rly-Bad-At being acutely aware of events that are occurring outside of the immediate perception of the moment, and seeing events as part of a continuous flow.

Rly-Bad-At perceiving the possible ramifications of future events and noticing ties to the past.

Rly-Bad-At observing behavioral patterns and assessing a person's character.

[silke]

All dickness aside, I think Ni polrs dislike the idea that events are determined.

Yes, it seems like they don't pay attention to dynamics of what has transpired in the past but rather will adamantly focus on all that could be in the present. The impression I get about Ne is that it has this "anything can mean anything" attitude. It's like they are seeing multiple alternative realities that make some completely wild events become possible, which to me seems absurdist. When you try to use Ni-Se and focus them on a single concrete reality, single interpretation or most likely course of events, they don't take to it well or question you on how would you know this.

[DirectorAbbie]

Ni-PoLR brings outdated accounting textbook to bank: "Hello, it says here in this highly reputed book that you have excellent rates here. I would like to take advantage of that." "What do you mean, that was before you were born?! It's the same place! What sort of a wishy-washy establishment are you running?!"

[moredhel]

All dickness aside, I think Ni polrs dislike the idea that events are determined. They look at it as a passive stance which, if we proactively work towards change, the path changes.. Ni looks to them like passive speculation without action and they ignore it many times. They're more interested in making things happen. And you cannot use dominant Ni and make proactive changes at the same time. Using Ni requires a detachment from things. The flipside is Ni polrs will sometimes think they can do more than they actually can. They won't admit when the course of events is on a downward trend and they can't do anything about it. They'll get perpetually stuck in the struggle to change things that aren't gona change.
They're like salmon swimming upstream, they're fighting against the current of reality.

I relate to this. Rigid prophesy in fantasy books annoys me (this may be only loosely related but i'm going to rant anyway), what's the point of reading the story if the end has already been decided *grumbles*.

Why did you stab that guy?
err prophesy made me do it .

Look I just saved the whole world from total annihilation .
Boring we already knew that was going to happen .

Also over estimating what I can get done and under estimating the time it will take (I should never do project estimates).

[Gilly]

Actually I'm really good at estimating time, how long something will take, etc. My dad (EII) can accurately guess the time of day within 5 minutes about 90% of the time.

[FDG]

Actually I'm really good at estimating time, how long something will take, etc. My dad (EII) can accurately guess the time of day within 5 minutes about 90% of the time.

I think the problem manifests itself when people deal with big projects i.e. something which requires multiple days, weeks, even months.

[moredhel]

Why are you reading fantasy books anyway? lol

For the delta protagonists of course . Anyway some are better than others...some use prophesy for some vague foreshadowing which is alright.

Everyone does this, or not. Studies suggest that humans generally fare poorly at time estimation.

Yes I can see that being the case, god knows why they even try to estimate projects it's always wrong , agile development all the way baby.

[silke]

So, Ni dominant people, what is it like to view reality like this? To be submersed in... time. I mean, I guess you guys are pretty used to it, so maybe you don't notice when you're using it. But if you can, could you describe how this "connection" with the "flow" (yeah you get what I mean, lol) affects you on a day to day or month to month basis? Or just in general.

it feels like having x-rays vision ... only that you don't ... but it still feels like it lol - the physical world is as if translucent

My experience as well. When ESEs complain, apparently they don't want advice, only sympathy and utter agreement.

They do want advice but some sort of Ne-advice. I compare Ni to a heavy brake, which works fine on SxEs who do appreciate its inhibitive effect but not xSEs. I just don't know what this Ne-advice consists of really. I see an ILE co-worker interact with a SEI and ESE and they get all excited about something and I can't register what it is. My current strategy is to avoid saying that something is unlikely or won't work and try to keep options open.

[InkStrider]

I'm trying to understand how the Ni PoLR manifests especially in LSEs and did a quick search for previous Ni PoLR threads. I picked out a number of views across various contexts for the purpose of this discussion.

 

Ni polr's get annoyed when you make subjective references that you cannot tangibly perceive.

Si likes contexts that you can sense, demonstrate, and "prove" (prove is an iffy word though)

Ni perceives the abstract and intangible context.

Ni polr's get irked when people make suppositions that cannot be traced back to any specific, concrete setting. "Where the hell did that come from?" "how does this apply here?" "How do you know that?" "That doesn't have anything to do with whats going on." "Show me how you know this".

When Ni-ers sense something unseen unfolding that cannot be "felt"

So Si polrs feel buried in too much information describing an environment that is unreal to them

Ni polrs feel there is not enough information for them to orient themselves and harmonize themselves within their setting.

They are trying to temper and understand their environment. To map out whats going on, the direction that things are moving, what is missing, where resources need to flow (Not Te, this is Si), etc.

Ni provides nothing to them. No good information to work with, its just empty space.

Doesn't have much to do with time at all.

Not thinking of future implications of what you're doing. Too present focused. If the word "later" is used, one would have a tendency to think it means "later today." Bad sense of time, thus plans things out in a schedule ahead of time or else utter PoLR confusion.
Unsure of time measurements, seeks judgment in this area, so if things aren't planned out, tendency to overdo things for a long period of time just to make sure it's done "fully." Poor foresight, sure.

Finding something to do for the sake of doing it, when really it doesn't need to be done. Inventing stuff to do, so one doesn't have to look inward.

reversed. SLE wants control of outcome/environment; LSE wants control of people.

LSE wants people to be hard working and efficient like they are. they will directly pressure you to work without an immediate reward. they will use guilt, nag, cajole. they are very hard working and efficient themselves and they think everyone should be that way. they have a huge surplus of energy to expend, while SLE being EP has energy but not so so much of it. i guess i wanna say that LSE will use the stick and the carrot, while SLE uses the carrot only and sets the example.

it's almost like SLE recognizes and accepts the IP way of life....whereas LSE is against it.

when i think about it though LSE prolly can get IJ types to move better than SLE can.

Yeah.. that fits with the way my LSE dad operates. :-p Works you all day, then at the end of the day he's all happy with you, but you're all grumpy for having being worked for no reason other than "it's good to work"... so heh. Ok I should just speak for myself.

ESxJ can be demeaning when judging a persons character including their own. They often emphasize a person's flaws or draw toward negativity. It can be a bit shocking.

The same can be said for the future. They often have a impending sense of doom of how the world is going to turn out. that's my two cents.

All dickness aside, I think Ni polrs dislike the idea that events are determined. They look at it as a passive stance which, if we proactively work towards change, the path changes.. Ni looks to them like passive speculation without action and they ignore it many times. They're more interested in making things happen. And you cannot use dominant Ni and make proactive changes at the same time. Using Ni requires a detachment from things. The flipside is Ni polrs will sometimes think they can do more than they actually can. They won't admit when the course of events is on a downward trend and they can't do anything about it. They'll get perpetually stuck in the struggle to change things that aren't gona change.
They're like salmon swimming upstream, they're fighting against the current of reality.

Ni PoLR using the wikipedia socionics Rly-Bad-At method:

Rly-Bad-At the estimation of the passage of time.

Rly-Bad-At the understanding of a course of processes in time, and forecasting.

Rly-Bad-At understanding how things may change and evolve over time and throughout history.

Rly-Bad-At being acutely aware of events that are occurring outside of the immediate perception of the moment, and seeing events as part of a continuous flow.

Rly-Bad-At perceiving the possible ramifications of future events and noticing ties to the past.

Rly-Bad-At observing behavioral patterns and assessing a person's character.

Yes, it seems like they don't pay attention to dynamics of what has transpired in the past but rather will adamantly focus on all that could be in the present. The impression I get about Ne is that it has this "anything can mean anything" attitude. It's like they are seeing multiple alternative realities that make some completely wild events become possible, which to me seems absurdist. When you try to use Ni-Se and focus them on a single concrete reality, single interpretation or most likely course of events, they don't take to it well or question you on how would you know this.

For me I normally associate my Ni PoLR with not valuing hidden meaning, symbolism and yes philosophical questions. When I see a movie where this is suppose to represent that and this speaks to this persons inner desire to blah blah, I just don't care I often find I can recognize when there is hidden meaning and when something is symbolic, I just have no desire to find out what it is or why.

If I was forced to decipher such things, say for an English paper It makes me uncomfortable.

Not to be confused with concepts such as themes and messages in stories, I find these are quantifiable and purposeful and therefor don't force me to use Ni. This is true for art as well, I see it for what it is, a pretty picture I value the artists technique and skill far more than any deeper meaning associated with the art work.

I have a fairly narrow view of Ni so if you have a broader idea of what you think it is responsible for I will happily tell you how I process that information.

I consider -Polr to be an aversion to existential questions - questions like "could it be that we have no purpose?" as it's a little bit too not concrete to be seen as of use, and threaten to go around in circles, either concluding nothing substantial, or suggesting some type of nihilistic world view, neither of which an EJ wants. Being weak at intuition, they'd prefer to just avoid the questions than try to come mystical interpretation of the world. I imagine they prefer to say things are "as they are" rather than things having some mystical, other-world nature. To busy themselves with things they need to do in the present, rather than having to bother with unimportant ("unimportant" in the sense that "could it be that we have no purpose?" will either lead you to completely reject your current mode of life, or somehow find an adequate reason to do the task, and thus do the task) existential questions about why to do them.

Also, they have difficulty about thinking of the process of things, and judging the importance of some events compared to other events. Rather, they see a collection of jobs that need to be collected, and take each as they appear, rather than being able to prioritize them well.

Being aimless busybody, that does a lot and achieves little
Being unwise, often making poor desicicions that are gravely going to haunt them later on
Lack of vision, I don't mean eyesight
Lack of foresight
Focus on immediate needs
Not thinking far ahead, in case of FeSi's not thinking at all
Not understanding chains of cause and effect
Wasting energy
Naive realism
Often self-indulgent
Hedonism
Superficial

Ni can be seen as the momentum of a situation.

Ni polr have problems dealing with the momentum of a situation. What is too much influence and what is too little? When dealing with the world and other people you have to somehow take into account that things are constantly changing, people are changing, thinking, learning, what seems bad might bee good if you wait 5 minutes. Ni polrs may want to initiate what is already happening, or working against the situation, instead of waiting for a better moment when things would take care of themselves. Other Ni polrs are too relaxed, and don't understand that their input is needed to modify the situation. It can be difficult to be in sync with the flow of things happening. This is just based on my experience with Ni polr.

Ni polrs shamelessly ignore the consequences of their actions. Even if you explain those to them in the clearest fashion they just won't get it.

Thoughts? Well, I can't really point to any distinct thoughts that typifies Ni PoLR. I can say, however, Ni PoLR seems to be more about the inability to extrapolate patterns/trends from past experiences and relate them to future outlooks and present situations. In a sense, they are a bit hampered in their ability to get a sense of what to expect from the future. Perhaps also Ni PoLR would relate to the inability to arrange "pictures" of the past and connect them together in some new way to derive some meaning or understanding from them?

Anyways, it seems some Ni PoLRs will extensively "plan" the future to compensate. Kinda step-by-step planning, perhaps? But, these plan Ni-less plans can't really gestalt of what the future can bring. These future plans can seem isolated. They don't seem to take into account on what can move in the way of each step.

Let's make an example. Let's say an Ni person looks over the Ni PoLR's plan. The Ni person says, "Hey, there's this potential problem that can come up which could get in the way of your plan working out. This plan doesn't really plan for this." The Ni PoLR hand waves, "I'll address that if it comes up." Then the Ni PoLR person just moves on. That potential problem seems to just not be real to the Ni PoLR person. Until it happens, of course.

Maybe this is where the Ni PoLR people get help from Ne. When the crisis hits, they need to quickly think up of a number of solutions so that they can still manage to achieve their end goal.

Ni-polrs help the least spiritually and compassionately because they just take a here it now approach, when really- thinking things through and getting to know the totality of what the person did and does and all their noble goals and intentions in life is necessary. The big picture. But fuck that emo shit. They just see somebody misbehaving, and needing to be "Corrected" right now.

Another thing which isn't being mentioned here, is these Ni polr types have nearly no ability to see through lies. If you give them an excuse which involves multiple elements, they won't be able to discriminate whether it's likely to have happened or not. They'll get caught up in the 'well, it's possible'. As long as the excuse could have possibly happened, then they seem to just accept it and dismiss the whole deal.

I say yes, anything that is about linking abstract concepts, or complex inner worlds. I've never seen a Ni polr get too involved in a book or imaginary world. (They can like guilty pleasures but nothing ever abstract or grand scheme-y.) Not only do Ni dominants have the ability to connect time and continuity in the real world, we can also do it for make-believe ones as well.

They brush off complex problems with a just 'Get over it!', which frustrates me to no end, because I know there has to be an emotional release and a psychological process to overcome big life changes. At least I know that's where it has to start. They tend to break through problems with raw force at the expense of analyzing their true feelings, which works for them because hey, something is always getting done - but it doesn't end up ideally at all, which is what the Ni-type needs. (Or maybe I'm just talking about IEIs) They make stupid decisions by their 'just do it' philosophy, lacking the sense and time of when something should ideally be executed. They try to cover this up by more and more actions, when what they really need to do is sit the fuck down already and pay closer attention to their own emotions and thought processes.

But yeah, from my perspective, Ni PoLR often means being oblivious to the larger context of actions and failing to perceive the hidden implications of things, choosing instead to focus on the apparent and immediate.

Here are a few statements as starters for debate:

1) Ni PoLR does not equal not being philosophical nor disliking the abstract, nor does it has anything to do with an inability to reflect nor learn from mistakes.

2) Ni PoLR does not equal an inability to pay close attention to their emotions and thought processes.

3) Ni PoLR does not equal being disinclined towards fantasy, mysticism, symbolism, esoterics, existential questions, etc.

4) Ni PoLR does not equal needing to correct people's behaviour nor wanting to control people.

5) Ni PoLR does not equal lack of vision and foresight, superficiality, being unable to see the big picture nor a disability to think long term.


What I have observed of myself which may be PoLR related:

1) Prioritization: What happens is that every night I make a mental note of what I need to do. In the morning, I make a general plan on what I need to do first, and go with that. I think of a list of items I need to do and want to tick it off my list as soon as possible. I get annoyed when my plans go awry due to unexpected events as this means that the items get brought forward to the following day, which delays things, so I try to keep a time buffer of sorts for these events. But if the plan goes entirely off, and I accomplish nothing at the end of the day, let's just say I don't feel very happy. Fortunately this rarely happens.

2) Estimation of time: I sometimes take on more than I can chew and tend to underestimate (sometimes severely) the amount of time it takes to accomplish a certain task. I may at times get caught up in a particular task and be unwilling to leave to the next task until I have completed it to my satisfaction, which may be interpreted as having a bad sense of time. I see it as a task that takes longer than expected to complete due to an exploration/exhaustion of the task. Even in RPG games I prefer to explore every nook and cranny, complete every quest, collect all unique items, etc over a quicker, more efficient approach of going straight for the kill.

3) What-ifs: I am in love with what-if analysis. Gives me a sense of security to know every possibility that may occur so that I may never be caught of guard in anything. I want to be prepared for every possibility and occurrence in order to prevent the negatives from occurring. Nevermind that I may end up ignoring some of these probable possibilities until it blasts right up at my face as I get caught up with stuff. Ironic.

4) Gibberish: I get annoyed when people speak senseless nonsense which makes no sense, making motherhood statements, and the serious entertainment of unrealistic ideas without thought for feasibility.

[rat1]

The polr function is not really a deficiency. It distinguishes what's valuable & irrelevant. The individual is consciously aware of what they consider irrelevant and why. The area of value is infact highly specialized. Often you'll see polr descriptions say a person overcompensates for their polr. Truth is they're just focusing on their priorities. Descriptions will also talk about how terrible the type is at using the polr. They describe it in these terms because they don't understand the mechanics of the function.

[InkStrider]

The polr function is not really a deficiency. It distinguishes what's valuable & irrelevant. The individual is consciously aware of what they consider irrelevant and why. The area of value is infact highly specialized. Often you'll see polr descriptions say a person overcompensates for their polr. Truth is they're just focusing on their priorities. Descriptions will also talk about how terrible the type is at using the polr. They describe it in these terms because they don't understand the mechanics of the function.

If I'm getting you, you're saying that we cannot view the creative and the PoLR as divorced from the other in the attempt to understand the PoLR (since strength in one area equate to weakness in another). I can see how strongly I emphasize Si in my approach, but what exactly do I miss out in terms of strength in Ni? As far as my understanding goes, Ni in this context in contrast to Si is about waiting out for the right/best/most appropriate moment to act in order to gain the most out of the least effort. Which I absolutely appreciate. If this were the case, my argument would be if there really is a right moment for anything? Why wait out when you can get it done now, though there might be an additional hassle in doing so, or even if the problem/task may disappear/not need to be done if delayed? How would one know if the problem may not grow bigger if not nipped in the bud? But perhaps I'm going rather off here since I honestly lack understanding of Ni as a function, or if what I had been attributing to Si is instead Se.

In my approach towards studying a subject in preparation for an examination for instance, I tend to want to read and master everything about it if possible. If only time were to permit, I would even read from cover to cover, chapter by chapter to gain a strong or "perfect" understanding from base up to ensure that I would not miss out on anything in order that I could answer with ease no matter the exam question. I could see how this is extremely inefficient by Ni view.

The Ni valuers I know would tend to "spotting" questions, relying on tips by professors and studying on that alone. Though I may do this, it isn't something which I feel comfortable doing and would often end up burning the midnight oil studying the "irrelevant chapters" just-in-case. It is ineffective and goes against Pareto's principle, but is an approach I can't help but follow despite its ineffectiveness. It annoys me how an LIE I know go all smug at being successful about it (passing with less time/effort), when all I see is the potential flaws of his approach if these probabilities/factors he were banking on did not manifest.

[Crispy]

The negative end of the +/- type descriptions encapsulate the super-ego pretty well. Take a look: Source

Problems: Conservative in their tastes and habits. He does not like to admit their mistakes and compromises. Do not take criticism, even in a joking manner. He lacks diplomacy in relations. Sometimes too harsh in his critical assessments. Condemns all those who, in his opinion, insufficient quality and honest work. Avoid making compliments, praise for good work - says her norm. He does not like to talk about entertainment, a supporter of a strict upbringing. If his work is criticized by incompetent people. May flare up. With friends often exhibits arrogance and insistence. Stressoneustoychiv, particularly the unsettling situation of uncertainty. Weary of the long wait for some event. Drowning in details and getting distracted by other matters, may not have time to finish work on time. This is very painful experiences. Lacking sufficient evidence, puts the decision. Can not stand when he urged on or distract from the work. In keeping with the established rules of conduct require the same from others. At the same time, could suddenly get into a fuss, break, exercise intolerance and harshness.

[InkStrider]

Thanks for the link.

Problems: Conservative in their tastes and habits. He does not like to admit their mistakes and compromises. Do not take criticism, even in a joking manner. He lacks diplomacy in relations. Sometimes too harsh in his critical assessments. Condemns all those who, in his opinion, insufficient quality and honest work. Avoid making compliments, praise for good work - says her norm. He does not like to talk about entertainment, a supporter of a strict upbringing. If his work is criticized by incompetent people. May flare up. With friends often exhibits arrogance and insistence. Stressoneustoychiv, particularly the unsettling situation of uncertainty. Weary of the long wait for some event. Drowning in details and getting distracted by other matters, may not have time to finish work on time. This is very painful experiences. Lacking sufficient evidence, puts the decision. Can not stand when he urged on or distract from the work. In keeping with the established rules of conduct require the same from others. At the same time, could suddenly get into a fuss, break, exercise intolerance and harshness.

I don't really like this description though, since I can identify minimally with it, unless it were to be describing how I could be like under undue stress. I could see myself flaring up and being rather nasty in such a case.

Anyhow I think what is important is how these external behaviours described relate to the model A functions, otherwise they really couldn't be attributed as type related.