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Last edited by Rubicon; 11-27-2008 at 08:52 PM. Reason: hmm ...
"Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."
the daughter sounds like you.
this is a very similar conversation that my sister and i have had, many times. we are more respectful with each other in it though. we're both a bit more open to each other's viewpoint even when we dont agree. but, the essence of this conversation is so close to what we've said to each other.
i believe you've said your mom was istj in the past.
my sis is probably delta, enfp or infj, with isfp next and i'm pretty darn sure i'm beta at this point. and you've likened me to your mom before as well.
that's as specific as i can get.
daughter=my sister
mother=me
some of the "rude" comments like "You just have to speak with authority, and they believe pretty much everything you tell them." and "You're incredibly naive. If you want to live your life just being blown to and fro by the wind - living in some happy fairy-land - you're on the right track. You're going to die an old lady having achieved nothing." and "Well, you need to change the way you learn. Let other stupid people make the mistakes, so you don't have to."
are all things i THINK but would NOT say to my sister that harshly. i know and love and respect her too much as an individual who does not like that kind of harshness thrown at her to speak that way to her.
with all that being said, the mother's type is definitely mine. sis and i have shared some of these exact sentiments back and forth. we actually cherish these conversations because we love each other deeply enough to respect the other's way of seeing things whether we agree or not.
i learned to let go of my expectations of others that way long ago and to realize that just because I HAVE a purpose to fulfill that is along the lines of what the mother is saying, not everyone else has the same purpose and i better respect that in order for others to respect MINE.
so, if some EIEs do not realize that and accomodate accordingly in their purpose of what they're doing and being, i can see why so many others would see them as manipulative bitches. helllllooo!! my own mom is either EIE or SLE, most likely EIE now and i observed her be that way. i learned how to be a healthier version. and you bet she respects and admires me now.
well, jem, i hope that helps you. i have personally always thought you were IEE. you and my sis are a lot alike.
I was thinking Ej for the mom and Ip for the daughter.
IEI-Fe 4w3
It sounds like me and my dad talking. When my dad is in a bad mood. He can be awful, but then he can be a real sweetie too. Anyway, I'm IEE and he's EIE, though that doesn't mean the people in the convo are those two types. I'd say it's a disagreement about the value of Se though so one dislikes Se and one greatly values it.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
something i was thinking of...
everyone is saying EIE for the mom or at least EJ and sounds like Se valuing. would the fact that i find some of her ways of saying things to be very rude and condescending, especially for the relationship with her daughter be any indicator that i do not value Fe in the way the mom does? i do value Se, but if i care more about my relationship with my sister than being rude to her, would or could i be Fi and Se valuing?
i was just at the grocery store and saw two women who i could tell would have been the mom in this conversation, definite EIEs. that is not me. i am much more of a tomboy, jock type. we were out playing football at the park earlier and i usually am wearing my sports/workout wear.
my own mom sounds more like the mom here in this conversation.
My dad loves me and values our relationship, but I think he would say that his responsibility as my dad is to give me information I need to help me more than to keep things smooth between us.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
i would and have given my sister the same "information" but the manner is not as rude and condescending as what this mom is saying here. my mom is the one who doesnt value keeping things smooth, as you say. to the point of the two of them not talking anymore. i value my relationship with my sis so much that i believe in being there for her, no matter what. even if i dont agree with her choices.....they are still her choices, not mine to dictate to her to do.
you know SM i've mentioned unschooling. to me, it relates back to it. i came here with a purpose but if i shove MY purpose on others, i am doing them a disservice to live their own purpose, whatever that may be.
My personal thoughts/beliefs on the matter fall pretty close in line with your mothers, btw.
ἀταραξία
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Originally Posted by Gilly
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Originally Posted by Gilly
It sounds like the mother is def. Beta and the daughter maybe Alpha>Delta?
I found that really enjoyable to read, yet strange. That is more like the logic that works through my head fighting with itself than any conversation I have ever experienced, although both my parents are Gamma, so there you go (ILI Dad and ESI Mum).
It's funny, because although I agree more with the mother's sentiments in this argument, I am more likely to take something along the lines of the experimental approach taken by the daughetr in order to gain control. I find the most effective way to control a situation and gain the respect of your peers lies within subtle social manipulation (only ever for good, I'm not a vengeful person).
It's amazing what you can achieve with patience, good observation and the subtleties of wording and body language.
Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .
Yeah ... I think that's probably significant ... because she often says things that I can see are true on some level, but just seem really unnecessary and harsh ... and make me want to point out another perspective regardless of whether I agree or not.
Yeah - same.
pfft - what do you know about VI? :-p
"Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."
IEI-Fe 4w3
Jem, thanks for posting this conversation. It's great. ...I vote for daughter.
I think in that kind of conversation (if I were in the daughter's place) my end would be full of . It would not go well.
Moonlight will fall
Winter will end
Harvest will come
Your heart will mend
Daughter is a 9, mother is a cp6
JRiddy
—————King of Socionics—————
Ne-ENTp 7w8 sx/so
The mom just sounds neurotic. I think someone from any quadra could adopt that sort of "survival of the fittest" mentality. Perhaps the focus is on Se, but that doesn't mean Se is valued. The focus on accomplishment could be related to Se or rationality, but it doesn't have to be.
This is just someone who feels she's been bullied and fears that if she is not tough like she's described, she'll be taken advantage of. She doesn't think of people very highly, herself being no exception. That's why she's decided to measure worth by accomplishment. Her daughter frustrates her because she upsets her world view.
It's amazing that her daughter is so kind and wise, having been raised by such an unhealthy person.