I'm jumping ship

[dbmmama]

If you're jumping ship, I'm coming with you! Starfall says I give her the IEI vibes

but stop dissing Delta. I love delta!!!!!!!!

edited for mo mo mo IEIness D

(did u know, u can only use 20 images in one post? Serious challenge for noobie IEI's)

if you're jumping too, i'm with you dattebayo. i want you for my dual. you remind me of one of my bestest friends.

[xyz]

Fine, I won't mind having an entire quadra to myself.

[dattebayo]

if you're jumping too, i'm with you dattebayo. i want you for my dual. you remind me of one of bestest friends.

rly? Cool. DUALZ

Fine, I won't mind having an entire quadra to myself.

hi, grumpy. You can come with us if u like

[redbaron]

However, if you can confidently say you prefer Alpha to Gamma overall, then that makes certain manifestations of Beta unlikely. Beta NF that prefer to use more intuition and less ethics will probably behave more like and interact better with Gammas.

not true. I prefer alpha>gamma.

[Park]

He expresses confidence in drawing his own categories, whether in formal logic or in physiology (see how he discusses Sociotype and sport.) He is very consistent in their expression, and their expression (and their defense, which is often very categorical) composes a large proportion of his interaction.

Which would imply that he uses Ti as a base function as opposed to demonstrative? I really doubt it... Plus, creative Se would make a really bad substitute for his creative Te and apparent Fe PoLR (imo).

[redbaron]

hate is universal though haha. WEll, for me, I almost always dislike ISFps when I first meet them, but over time I come to appreciate them. so maybe take that time factor into consideration.

you make a good point. I used to think I hated SLEs! when I was younger, before I knew about socionics. hehe

[Ritella]

not true. I prefer alpha>gamma.

yeah i don't agree with IFMD's point. I think types generally tend to prefer the adjoining quadra that s/he supervises.

[xyz]

hi, grumpy. You can come with us if u like

No thanks, there's only one person I actually like in Beta, and that's not enough to make me want to move. Keep your charismatic misanthropic bullies. I'll stick with unadorned misanthropy.

[Park]

you make a good point. I used to think I hated SLEs! when I was younger, before I knew about socionics. hehe

You mean when you were still a virgin, right?

[Ritella]

You mean when you were still a virgin, right?

lmao. i can't believe you just wrote that. ahahahahah.

[Park]

[redbaron]

You mean when you were still a virgin, right?

uh, yeah.

[redbaron]

No thanks, there's only one person I actually like in Beta, and that's not enough to make me want to move. Keep your charismatic misanthropic bullies. I'll stick with unadorned misanthropy.

only one of us?? oh no!

[UDP]

Hey, I wanna know too!

You betas are greedy always trying to recruit people to your ranks.

If they like you, they will keep inviting you to be part of their group.
If they dislike you, they will keep trying to distance themselves from you.

When do you ever see deltas doing that? Oh that's right, we're probably too individualistic for that.

If deltas like you, they let you do what you want to do. (and probably support you)
If they don't, they kind of let you be but just don't interact with you.

Jessica, how are deltas pissing you off? Is it something specific or do we just generally annoy you? It's cool to say....that's mostly how I feel about betas, tbh.

People related or socionics related, that's the question.

[Sirena]

If they like you, they will keep inviting you to be part of their group.
If they dislike you, they will keep trying to distance themselves from you.


If deltas like you, they let you do what you want to do. (and probably support you)
If they don't, they kind of let you be but just don't interact with you.


People related or socionics related, that's the question.

I'll have to agree with you here, from my experience anyway. Love Delta!

[Joy]

I much prefer Alpha. Why does this matter?

That could suggest that, given the choice, you prefer Fe/Ti > Se/Ni. I'm not sure this necessarily works though because I tend to prefer the other Democratic quadra over either of the Aristocratic ones.

But fwiw, having skimmed over your more recent posts, you strike me as more Fe than Fi. Granted, this is just a vague impression.

[Ritella]

But fwiw, having skimmed over your more recent posts, you strike me as more Fe than Fi. Granted, this is just a vague impression.

I'm curious what made you say that.

Fwiw, in the gamma vs. alpha questions, 80% of my close friends are ILI. I think I prefer gammas, esp. the NTs, if we're just kicking back 1 on 1. When they start going out in a group, I tend to be like "who are these aliens?!" Alphas are always generally good fun and make me happy. Yes, even ENTPs. I actually LOVE ENTPs. I don't understand why that would be a problem.

[Creepy-]

If they like you, they will keep inviting you to be part of their group.
If they dislike you, they will keep trying to distance themselves from you.


If deltas like you, they let you do what you want to do. (and probably support you)
If they don't, they kind of let you be but just don't interact with you.

Huh... hadn't thought of this before, but that sounds about right. I definitely prefer the Delta way

[Joy]

I'm curious what made you say that.

Like I said, it's just a vague impression. Nothing I can pin point and offer a real analysis of. I've been coming around here less and less lately though, so maybe I'm missing part of the picture.

Fwiw, in the gamma vs. alpha questions, 80% of my close friends are ILI. I think I prefer gammas, esp. the NTs, if we're just kicking back 1 on 1. When they start going out in a group, I tend to be like "who are these aliens?!" Alphas are always generally good fun and make me happy. Yes, even ENTPs. I actually LOVE ENTPs. I don't understand why that would be a problem.

Just about any type can be easy to appreciate and get along with in casual interactions. It's the people who you spend the most time around and are closest to that you'll see intertype relations play out with.

[Ritella]

Just about any type can be easy to appreciate and get along with in casual interactions. It's the people who you spend the most time around and are closest to that you'll see intertype relations play out with.

Sure, but that's what I mean. The ILIs are my very close friends. I don't consider our relationship "casual." They just annoy me when they interact with other gammas and the group Se kicks in.

[strrrng]

Sure, but that's what I mean. The ILIs are my very close friends. I don't consider our relationship "casual." They just annoy me when they interact with other gammas and the group Se kicks in.

What do you mean by the 'group Se'? And how do you deal with beta Se?

[Joy]

Yeah that's actually exactly how I feel about Betas one on one vs. in groups (except in that case it's Fe, not Se).

[Park]

He has weak Fe, but who did it conflict with most?

Not with IEEs, he was on very good terms with most of them including the ones with a more firmly established typings like Slacker Mom, Topaz, S.C. etc...

What surprised me once though was the fact that he initially thought Oprah Winfrey was his dual (which is also the same typing Rick initially had for her /IEE). The reason I was surprised was because I was generally repelled by her appearance at that time, which also fitted my image of EIEs, but I've come to feel very neutral towards her over time and even find some of her qualities admirable etc.... Anyways, I think I'd have a really hard time ever convincing myself I am anything else but Rocky's identical.

[Ritella]

What do you mean by the 'group Se'? And how do you deal with beta Se?

I can't even really describe it with Gammas. It's like we're totally on the same page and then a group of gammas get together and they just start acting "showy" and doing this high-brow, cocktail party, I read the New Yorker thing. I just sit there like "whoa. Can someone please tell a fart joke to ease the atmosphere?" They also get really obsessed with talking about their jobs, how far they are in the hierarchy, where they live, trendy places that they frequent, people that they know, how much money they make. I just want to shoot myself from the boredom.
Beta Se is almost easier for me to deal with because it's so different it's almost like exotic. With Gammas it's like "you're so like me!" and then when I see that they value Se I'm like "what happened to you. Ehw."
I don't know how to describe Beta Se. Sometimes they tell jokes that I'm just sort of like "I get it. Not very new" and I don't really get why they're always "fighting" something or trying to cover their asses. I'm sort of like "what does it matter?" and simultaneously get pissed at myself for appearing completely selfish and lazy. heh.
But, yeah, I've dated ESTPs and I never felt like "scared" or "unsafe." I think that people think Se is "violence" or something, and it's not really like that. For example, the threads about Se PoLR being an aversion to graphic violence are not entirely true. I could go into this further, but maybe there's a better thread...

[strrrng]

I can't even really describe it with Gammas. It's like we're totally on the same page and then a group of gammas get together and they just start acting "showy" and doing this high-brow, cocktail party, I read the New Yorker thing. I just sit there like "whoa. Can someone please tell a fart joke to ease the atmosphere?" They also get really obsessed with talking about their jobs, how far they are in the hierarchy, where they live, trendy places that they frequent, people that they know, how much money they make. I just want to shoot myself from the boredom.

Some of that stuff sounded beta'ish, but I guess it would depend on the emotional intention behind it.

Beta Se is almost easier for me to deal with because it's so different it's almost like exotic. With Gammas it's like "you're so like me!" and then when I see that they value Se I'm like "what happened to you. Ehw."

That's how it is for me with alpha Fe and gamma Se. The former being too loopy and light, the latter being too dry.

I don't know how to describe Beta Se. Sometimes they tell jokes that I'm just sort of like "I get it. Not very new" and I don't really get why they're always "fighting" something or trying to cover their asses. I'm sort of like "what does it matter?" and simultaneously get pissed at myself for appearing completely selfish and lazy. heh.

I guess that's similar to how I would describe delta Ne. They seem to make these "witty" comments sometimes, where these 'correlations' are made, and they'll act like it's the most clever thing they ever heard lol. idk...at that point I just want to make a loud noise and see how they react.

But, yeah, I've dated ESTPs and I never felt like "scared" or "unsafe." I think that people think Se is "violence" or something, and it's not really like that. For example, the threads about Se PoLR being an aversion to graphic violence are not entirely true. I could go into this further, but maybe there's a better thread...

yeah lol, wtf @ that. Se polr people just seem extremely averse to immediate, abrupt focus or application of sensory impact/movement. It's not about lacking willpower or assertiveness. An INFj in a beta environment will probably feel 'out of sync' with all the rapidly changing and disconnected activity (not to mention what they probably view as superfluous emotional expression).

[Park]

[unefille]

I can't even really describe it with Gammas. It's like we're totally on the same page and then a group of gammas get together and they just start acting "showy" and doing this high-brow, cocktail party, I read the New Yorker thing. I just sit there like "whoa. Can someone please tell a fart joke to ease the atmosphere?" They also get really obsessed with talking about their jobs, how far they are in the hierarchy, where they live, trendy places that they frequent, people that they know, how much money they make. I just want to shoot myself from the boredom.

Whoa! Fwiw, this is almost exactly my reaction to a group of Gammas (but along a different line)! I was just having a conversation with idolatrie about this yesterday, because some of our friends (prep school kids?) are Gamma and they were having a party and it was weirdly alienating. It's just becuase I'm looking at something I value (Se), but it's blocked in with Fi/Te and I kind of find it weirdly repulsive. For one thing, I find Fi/Te types SAY explicitly what Fe/Ti implies, so all of a sudden I'm surrounded by people who actually say things like 'well, status is quite important to me -- so blackberry or iphone?' and I'm staring at them like horns are growing out of their heads because surely it's too gauche to actually say that aloud? And also, I find when Betas are being 'show-offy' and 'pretentious', we do it as more of a reflection of our own personal awesomeness -- so we read the The New Yorker (which I do, actually, as I do attend a lot of cocktail parties) and we assume it shows that we belong to an echelon of people who have like, the awesomest/most sophisticated taste etc. Whilst Gammas say it in a more 'this is the establishment' sort of sense. There's a lot more emphasis on MONEY (esp. old money), attending certain schools (legacies, omg), going to certain specific places -- it's so much more 'cliquish' and 'established' -- and a lot of it is personal connections -- who you know/your family knows -- who you have on call -- what connections you can leverage etc. It's all so much more serious, established and incontrovertible.

[Park]

For one thing, I find Fi/Te types SAY explicitly what Fe/Ti implies,

and the other way around.

[Ritella]

That's how it is for me with alpha Fe and gamma Se. The former being too loopy and light, the latter being too dry.

that makes sense.

I guess that's similar to how I would describe delta Ne. They seem to make these "witty" comments sometimes, where these 'correlations' are made, and they'll act like it's the most clever thing they ever heard lol. idk...at that point I just want to make a loud noise and see how they react.

lol. I've never considered it from the Beta perspective. I guess we must seem like a stuck up, private little exclusive club?

yeah lol, wtf @ that. Se polr people just seem extremely averse to immediate, abrupt focus or application of sensory impact/movement. It's not about lacking willpower or assertiveness. An INFj in a beta environment will probably feel 'out of sync' with all the rapidly changing and disconnected activity (not to mention what they probably view as superfluous emotional expression).

yeah, i agree with this. i can have A LOT of willpower and i can seem very assertive. it's actually sort of odd because some people straight out describe me as "intimidating" and other people, when i tell this to them, go like "lol. yeah. maybe for like a care bear."
yeah, basically i don't like environments that are very "GO! GO! GO!" I also have SERIOUS problems with being aware of my physical environment. This is particularly painful for me when people think that I'm being mean or rude because of it. Like, for example, a lot of times guys will hold doors open for me and I seriously do not notice. To me it's just like "oh, walking through open space." Then they get mad at me for not saying "thank you" and it makes me want to cry. Also, sometimes I accidentally jaywalk and people bitch me out. That also makes me want to cry. I'm always like "I don't mean to be oblivious. I have good intentions. I'm a good person." My EIE mom is always like "these things matter. you need to be aware!"
I don't get bothered so much by the "superfluous expression." Maybe because I have Fe? I do get bothered by the Beta value of appearing "on." I never appear "on." I feel like Betas have a work persona, a good friend persona, a shopper persona... And they're always giving 100 percent to maintaining these images. I can never ever do that. It's just so draining... and confusing to me. I try to be "on" for like 5 minutes and then I start like spacing out and walking into walls. It's so terrible.

[strrrng]

that makes sense.


lol. I've never considered it from the Beta perspective. I guess we must seem like a stuck up, private little exclusive club?

Yeah, you do. It's like in my neighborhood -- motherfuckers are about to get lit up lol. If you're gonna be arrogant, SAY IT. bleh. Don't grimace complacently.

yeah, i agree with this. i can have A LOT of willpower and i can seem very assertive. it's actually sort of odd because some people straight out describe me as "intimidating" and other people, when i tell this to them, go like "lol. yeah. maybe for like a care bear."
yeah, basically i don't like environments that are very "GO! GO! GO!" I also have SERIOUS problems with being aware of my physical environment.

I can be unaware to my surroundings to, but when I interact, it's always discretely, with an aim at impact -- not the feeling produced and how it reacts with the environment.

This is particularly painful for me when people think that I'm being mean or rude because of it. Like, for example, a lot of times guys will hold doors open for me and I seriously do not notice. To me it's just like "oh, walking through open space." Then they get mad at me for not saying "thank you" and it makes me want to cry. Also, sometimes I accidentally jaywalk and people bitch me out. That also makes me want to cry. I'm always like "I don't mean to be oblivious. I have good intentions. I'm a good person." My EIE mom is always like "these things matter. you need to be aware!"

lol, I do this too. My ESFj mom has bitched at me for not holding doors, or letting the woman go first. I just make some snide comment about women's rights (the lack of) or whatever. And jay-walking is awesome

I don't get bothered so much by the "superfluous expression." Maybe because I have Fe? I do get bothered by the Beta value of appearing "on." I never appear "on." I feel like Betas have a work persona, a good friend persona, a shopper persona... And they're always giving 100 percent to maintaining these images. I can never ever do that. It's just so draining... and confusing to me. I try to be "on" for like 5 minutes and then I start like spacing out and walking into walls. It's so terrible.

This makes sense.

[UDP]

Whoa! Fwiw, this is almost exactly my reaction to a group of Gammas (but along a different line)! I was just having a conversation with idolatrie about this yesterday, because some of our friends (prep school kids?) are Gamma and they were having a party and it was weirdly alienating. It's just becuase I'm looking at something I value (Se), but it's blocked in with Fi/Te and I kind of find it weirdly repulsive. For one thing, I find Fi/Te types SAY explicitly what Fe/Ti implies, so all of a sudden I'm surrounded by people who actually say things like 'well, status is quite important to me -- so blackberry or iphone?' and I'm staring at them like horns are growing out of their heads because surely it's too gauche to actually say that aloud? And also, I find when Betas are being 'show-offy' and 'pretentious', we do it as more of a reflection of our own personal awesomeness -- so we read the The New Yorker (which I do, actually, as I do attend a lot of cocktail parties) and we assume it shows that we belong to an echelon of people who have like, the awesomest/most sophisticated taste etc. Whilst Gammas say it in a more 'this is the establishment' sort of sense. There's a lot more emphasis on MONEY (esp. old money), attending certain schools (legacies, omg), going to certain specific places -- it's so much more 'cliquish' and 'established' -- and a lot of it is personal connections -- who you know/your family knows -- who you have on call -- what connections you can leverage etc. It's all so much more serious, established and incontrovertible.

Hearing you complain about how gammas do it differently is somewhat entertaining but sort of doubly off putting.

No offense, but just how you write is so annoying because it's like you keep trying to demonstrate your own awesome vocabulary. "That's so gauche" -- like you said that criticism with a straight face.

I have terrible, terrible conflicts with betas over this - mostly because how betas do this is so annoying. Gammas, with them, too... although it's more by resisting their "old money" bullshit.

[unefille]

I do get bothered by the Beta value of appearing "on." I never appear "on." I feel like Betas have a work persona, a good friend persona, a shopper persona... And they're always giving 100 percent to maintaining these images. I can never ever do that. It's just so draining... and confusing to me. I try to be "on" for like 5 minutes and then I start like spacing out and walking into walls. It's so terrible.

I totally never even noticed the way I do this, but that's so true, maybe especially for EIEs. I was in a really grumpy mood yesterday and sort of giving monosyllablic answers, wearing a dour facial expression and slouching around the aisles of a grocery store, then out of the blue, I bumped into an old student of mine with her grandmother and I INSTANTLY became radiant, gracious and very very pleasant. I have no idea where the energy for that even came from and I was as puzzled as the person who had been with me, wandering the grocery aisles, watching my sudden transformation. It was just so natural, I'm not even sure what the precise thought-process was: maybe 1) behavioural appropriateness (don't inflict my shitty mood on a poor random passer-by) and 2) I want to appear gracious and in control?? (She's seen me flip out before, though).

I've had a lot of coffee this morning, so I'm blabbing on posts I relate to right now -- not sure how on-topic I'm being.

[Ritella]

UDP shut up.
I was actually just going to write (and before I saw his post) that I really liked unefille's post. I think you really nailed it with like the old money and private dinner club type description. I suppose bc their Se is blocked with Fi, they seem sort of more secretive and cliquey. I guess a Beta would be like "why are they like that? we welcome everyone!"
I've never quite understood Betas and Se. It's interesting that you think it's gauche when Gammas are so overt about it. Is it like you really value money and status but you think you should pretend that you don't because that looks bad?

[unefille]

No offense, but just how you write is so annoying because it's like you keep trying to demonstrate your own awesome vocabulary. "That's so gauche" -- like you said that criticism with a straight face.

?? I can't think of another word to use that says what I want to say in this instance -- it would be infinitely more pathetic if I sat down with a thesaurus, flipping through it to find a word that would project a less 'awesome vocabulary'.

[strrrng]

UDP shut up.
I was actually just going to write (and before I saw his post) that I really liked unefille's post. I think you really nailed it with like the old money and private dinner club type description. I suppose bc their Se is blocked with Fi, they seem sort of more secretive and cliquey. I guess a Beta would be like "why are they like that? we welcome everyone!"
I've never quite understood Betas and Se. It's interesting that you think it's gauche when Gammas are so overt about it. Is it like you really value money and status but you think you should pretend that you don't because that looks bad?

Gammas don't seem haughty to me; they don't seem to care about status beyond a normal level. It's the goddamn deltas that are all secretive and cliquey. I don't know if I would pretend I don't value something or hide my status; flaunting it propagates the aristocracy

I've had a lot of coffee this morning, so I'm blabbing on posts I relate to right now -- not sure how on-topic I'm being.

NO, keep writing <3<3<3

[strrrng]

lol, I just noticed Ritella's location - starbucks - and I got a really haughty vibe from it. You think you're so cool, don't you, ritella, what with your venti mocha, newspaper and laptop? Do you smile dismissively at all the inferiors who walk in?? You got something to say??

[Ritella]

I totally never even noticed the way I do this, but that's so true, maybe especially for EIEs. I was in a really grumpy mood yesterday and sort of giving monosyllablic answers, wearing a dour facial expression and slouching around the aisles of a grocery store, then out of the blue, I bumped into an old student of mine with her grandmother and I INSTANTLY became radiant, gracious and very very pleasant. I have no idea where the energy for that even came from and I was as puzzled as the person who had been with me, wandering the grocery aisles, watching my sudden transformation. It was just so natural, I'm not even sure what the precise thought-process was: maybe 1) behavioural appropriateness (don't inflict my shitty mood on a poor random passer-by) and 2) I want to appear gracious and in control?? (She's seen me flip out before, though).

I've had a lot of coffee this morning, so I'm blabbing on posts I relate to right now -- not sure how on-topic I'm being.

lol. you're on topic.
it's so funny that you wrote that. that is EXACTLY what my EIE mom would do when I was younger that would really bother me. It basically made me feel like I couldn't trust her. From my POV, when I'm feeling something, I don't want to take it out on everyone, but I'm not going to pretend like it's not there. To me, if you're snapping into different emotions every 10 minutes depending on who is there, it's like your acting or being fake. Like your not telling me the TRUTH. Like, where is the PERSON. But I suppose to you it's not being fake. You really just see it as your the sum of all of these things.

[jessica129]

Wow, this is a massive thread

[Ritella]

lol, I just noticed Ritella's location - starbucks - and I got a really haughty vibe from it. You think you're so cool, don't you, ritella, what with your venti mocha, newspaper and laptop? Do you smile dismissively at all the inferiors who walk in?? You got something to say??

ahahaha. Actually no. Those are the people I don't get! I usually stumble in rolled out of bed, mutter "coffee. ...please," spill half of it on myself, and then laugh loudly while reading something on my computer while people look at me like i'm crazy. I probably look homeless.

[strrrng]

lol. you're on topic.
it's so funny that you wrote that. that is EXACTLY what my EIE mom would do when I was younger that would really bother me. It basically made me feel like I couldn't trust her. From my POV, when I'm feeling something, I don't want to take it out on everyone, but I'm not going to pretend like it's not there. To me, if you're snapping into different emotions every 10 minutes depending on who is there, it's like your acting or being fake. Like your not telling me the TRUTH. Like, where is the PERSON. But I suppose to you it's not being fake. You really just see it as your the sum of all of these things.

I don't know, her example made sense to me. If I ran into someone who I had an attachment to, or positive association with, it might awaken some emotion in me because it would remind me of some portion of myself. So, for that transient period of time when I'm interacting with them, I am happy -- in the sense of riding a wave -- and who knows what will happen after. But my moods are very unstable to begin with, so I'm probably not the best example