Bill Hicks

[Joy]

I don't know though, have you ever read the autobiographical novel "Martin Eden" from Jack London himself, the stereotype of ENTj? There's a very clear underlying disgust for everything you associate to Se.

I have not.

Did he express it similarly to the way Bill Hicks is expressing it, or was it an expression of disgust for people who spend their lives trying to gain power and prestige? To me, the stereotypical upper middle class mindset and people who care about money more than people are disgusting. Things that involve making lots of money by selling your soul to a corporation, politics, or organized crime are disgusting. Basically, Fe + Se is disgusting. When societal roles come into play, that's when I start getting irritated and expressing "a very clear underlying disgust for everything 'you' associate to Se".

Sure, Fe+Se. Just think about the movie Fight Club, which is the most Beta movie ever, that deals with exactly the opposite of everything you said here. Please, please, please do not spread false informations.

grrr I wasn't saying that only people who are like that are Beta or only Betas are like that

we can go into defining Fe and Se right here, or we could start another thread about it, or we could mutually agree that neither of us is trying to describe ALL that is alpha, beta, gamma, Se, Fe, etc.

But never mind. His disagreement was in regard to both sides of the issue. Btw, you should really read the novel. I know no writer easier and faster to read than Martin Eden: I very rarely read fiction, but his is always welcomed.

I'll keep that in mind. I have a rather long reading list atm though, so it'll be a while before I read any fiction

No, I don't think money is more important than people and I do think that people who care about prestige and looking wealthy are disgusting... but the specific way Bill Hicks talks about marketing is a totally different idea fthan the type of thing I can't stand.

Uhm I think I get what you mean, he kind of "demonizes" it more than it's actually necessary.

[/quote]

Yeah, sort of. It's the aspects of it that he's criticizing and the way he's criticizing them.

[Rocky]

Robin Williams (Clear ESE IMO)

Robin Williams is ESFJ because of what... his moral judgments? His politness? His socially sensitive personality?

[Gilly]

1. VI
2. His humor is largely about:
(a.) His past experiences and how rediculous they are in retrospect (Si + Ne)
(b.) The basic nature, and inherent hilarity therein, of many social norms (Ne + Fe)
3. It's the general impression that I get (Alpha quadra, lots of Fe, clear extroversion)

[Rocky]

I was trying to understand what you think ESFJs are basically. Because personally I see them as very different from Williams. As I said, they seem much more sensitive then he is. Williams is quite un-politcally correct (which is a good thing for comedians).

[Gilly]

I was trying to understand what you think ESFJs are basically. Because personally I see them as very different from Williams. As I said, they seem much more sensitive then he is. Williams is quite un-politcally correct (which is a good thing for comedians).

Bleh. Political correctness is Fi's bullshit answer to Fe's social standards.

[niveK]

I was trying to understand what you think ESFJs are basically. Because personally I see them as very different from Williams. As I said, they seem much more sensitive then he is. Williams is quite un-politcally correct (which is a good thing for comedians).

Bleh. Political correctness is Fi's bullshit answer to Fe's social standards.

types being PC? I really can't imagine that being the case. Worrying about offending others and limiting free speech as a result just doesn't strike me as something that you could relate to . I thought types were the ones all about harmony. They would be the types more prone to do something silly like that to maintain harmony.

Actually, I'd hope and expect types would realize the difference between actual harmony and a fear of offending others. Political correctness was borne of fear, ignorance, and weakness. It's championed by those who are too weak-minded to handle free speech. Everyone has the right to be offended. No one has the right to not be offended.

Sorry for the ranting, but political correctness ticks me off.

[Joy]

Everyone has the right to be offended. No one has the right to not be offended.

brilliant

[Gilly]

Oh come the fuck on. Try and tell me that Delta isn't the most stereotypically PC quadra.

[Joy]

I don't know that it's because they're *trying* to be PC though. The Delta Fi types just don't want to hurt anyone.

[Gilly]

...Does anyone else realize the absurdity of that statement?

[Joy]

No. They're not doing it to look good.

[niveK]

Oh come the fuck on. Try and tell me that Delta isn't the most stereotypically PC quadra.

They aren't. Delta is supposed to be the "Live and Let Live" quadra. PC is against "live and let live." It's social control. You have to think and act according to a limited set of standards regarding interaction, and variation is considered a terrible offense. In the eyes of PC, saying "black" instead of "African-American" makes you a racist bastard unworthy of even the basic human respect. PC ignores the actual meaning and intent, and assigns meaning and intent based on arbitrary "safe" language. It's one of the most offensive and intrusive ideas I know. Especially in a society that supposedly values "free speech."

[Joy]

I'm not saying that EVERY Delta NF does that... just that by definition, "PC" is about looking good (or not looking bad), and the Delta NFs are, in my observations, generally more concerned with not hurting others than they are with how they look.

[Gilly]

Delta is supposed to be the "Live and Let Live" quadra.

Wrong. Go meet a few of them.

Political Correctness isn't necessarily about either looking good OR trying not to hurt feelings. It's different from person to person. Don't make these assumptions based on shitty socionics stereotypes.

[niveK]

Ok, I assume myself to be within the Delta quadra, so I'll speak of how I see offending people and whatnot, and other Deltas can agree or disagree or ignore me and eat pie or whatever.

I'm not too worried specifically about trying not to offend people. I do however feel that offending people is usually unnecessary and generally detrimental. However, I'm not going to be told what words I can and can't say, nor be told that if I say the "wrong" words, I'm being offensive when I know damn well I'm not. I certainly try not to offend people, but there's only so much I'm going to do. I'm not going to walk on eggshells around anyone. If anyone's offended, it's going to be entirely their "problem."

[niveK]

Delta is supposed to be the "Live and Let Live" quadra.

Wrong. Go meet a few of them.

Political Correctness isn't necessarily about either looking good OR trying not to hurt feelings. It's different from person to person. Don't make these assumptions based on shitty socionics stereotypes.

Political correctness is about trying to use "neutral" terms out of a fear (though no one for political correctness will admit it) that the wrong words will offend someone, no matter what you meant.

I've met plenty of Deltas (or people that I would type as various Delta types). They could frankly care less about how other people want to live their lives. They won't necessarily hide their disdain for other peoples choices, but they won't try to force anyone to act a certain way. It's more of a "that's a really bad idea, but if that's what you want to do, go ahead." Obviously there's exceptions for actions that would lead to great harm for someone.

It's not that I care whether people are PC, I just don't want them trying to force that idea upon everyone. They can limit themselves and be afraid all they want. Hopefully some day they'll realize how stupid it is and bail on it. Until then, as long as they keep it to themselves, I'm not bothered by it.

[Creepy-bg]

I agree with most of what niveK said. Except the- it's their problem if they're offended part. I feel really bad when I do offend someone. But yeah, it's not generally something I obsess over before hand like a PC policeman would. One of the things that bothers me about PC is that it waters down communication. I think that if a person thinks a certain way they should communicate to reflect that, not hide what they think behind PC words. PC to me seems like sweeping it all under a rug... It's still there, but now it's hidden and the only way to deal with it is to move the rug, then there it is again in all it's ugliness just the same as when you swept it all under there. PC is like a form of mass-delusion.

But yeah, as long as it doesn't effect my day-to-day living, whatever... delude yourself all you want... just don't expect me to help.

[niveK]

I agree with most of what niveK said. Except the- it's their problem if they're offended part. I feel really bad when I do offend someone. But yeah, it's not generally something I obsess over before hand like a PC policeman would. One of the things that bothers me about PC is that it waters down communication. I think that if a person thinks a certain way they should communicate to reflect that, not hide what they think behind PC words. PC to me seems like sweeping it all under a rug... It's still there, but now it's hidden and the only way to deal with it is to move the rug, then there is all is in all it's ugliness just the same as when you swept it all under there. PC is like a form of mass-delusion.

But yeah, as long as it doesn't effect my day-to-day living, whatever... delude yourself all you want... just don't expect me to help.

Well, the "it's their problem" part is something I developed in myself. I still have the inclination feel a bit bad if they're offended, but stepping back and looking at it, I realize that I did all I could do, and it's just an unfortunate event that they're offended (hence why "problem" was in quotation). It's more of a personal "thick-skin" thing, maybe.

[MysticSonic]

I think this topic makes the limitations of associating particular empirical traits with certain behaviors and---especially---mindsets.

[niveK]

I think this topic makes the limitations of associating particular empirical traits with certain behaviors and---especially---mindsets.

This topic makes "the limitations of associating... etc." what? More evident? I think you stopped a bit short in your sentence.


Or did you mean to say this topic is creating said limitations?

[CuriousSoul]

Oh come the fuck on. Try and tell me that Delta isn't the most stereotypically PC quadra.

No, it is not.
Alpha and Beta are both more PC, in my experience.
Extraverted feeling obides by the ethical standards of the enviroment.
Introverted feeling creates those standards.

[Expat]

No, it is not.
Alpha and Beta are both more PC, in my experience.
Extraverted feeling obides by the ethical standards of the enviroment.
Introverted feeling creates those standards.

I fully agree. It is Alpha and Beta who tend to go for this:

You have to think and act according to a limited set of standards regarding interaction, and variation is considered a terrible offense.

[Joy]

ah yes...

but do you think Bill Hicks is ENTp?

[Blaze]

Yes, Joy, I do think he's an entp. He's taking potshots at the power base, very entp. Estp would also do this but not in a funny way, in a serious way.

Entj: not really a possibility because you are right it does get to their values and the way they do things. Gilly's right - George Carlin is more gamma. He's making fun of Delta values.

[Angel von Himmel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSH6ofHbeUw

This man is NOT ENTp ... ! His whole process of Comedy is based around ACTUAL based arguments that he is really just making fun of!

[Joy]

ENTps can't make fun of Te arguments?

[Angel von Himmel]

ENTps can't make fun of Te arguments?

I could be wrong, but I think the reason you are thinking he is ENTp is because he is combining diffrent religious beliefs together. While I agree this is true that ENTps do this, I do not think he is doing this for the same reason that an ENTp would. An ENTp compares diffrent belief systems together and sees their abstract similarities +, however this commedian on the other hand is taking the various arguments used to justify various the various subjective personal beliefs that people have towards drugs and is not noting their abstract similarities , but the progressive steps from point A to point B ...

[ScanDave]

His act is ENTpish. Some things he says for shock value are things I would say for shock value. Logical subtype ENTj I would say he is. I tend to think ENTps are a little bit more random, and have broader interest range, and able to make fun of both sides of an issue equally so you have no idea where they going to go with something. Watch Richard Pryor or Dave Chappelle to kinda see what I mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNWh8kGaEsc

[aestrivex]

simply based on the posted video, ENTp is a reasonable suggestion. i never heard of the guy before this thread, so i'll pass on making an actual type prediction.

[Joy]

religious??? which clip are you referring to?

[Angel von Himmel]

religious??? which clip are you referring to?

Drugs and Evolution ...

[Joy]

doesn't sound "religious" to me

[Not A Communist Shill]

Man, I love Bill Hicks! (especially his laugh ).

I agree he does look a bit ENTj, but I think he acted more ENTp.

Here's some relevant stuff from wikipedia: (his opinions\jokes on things don't seem at Gamma.

The article says he was against traditional 'American' values - e.g. like where he tells pro-life campaigners to make a ring of arms around a cemetery in a country where abortion is a real issue. He was also against having to have a traditional job (see the quote), prefering to react to things he objected to (I know that could still be Gamma and he was a comedian, but these quotes seem to come from the heart).

Also, he mentions UFOs a lot + conspiracy theories etc. (probably cuz of the drugs, as he says) - which seems more of an ENTp interest .


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Hicks

In 1983, Hicks started drinking heavily while using other types of drugs, which may have influenced his increasingly disjointed and angry, at times even misanthropic, ranting style on stage. As had become his trademark, he continued attacking the American dream, hypocritical beliefs, and traditional attitudes. At one show, two Vietnam veterans took exception to his statements and sought him out after the show, breaking one of his legs and cracking one of his ribs.
Hicks' success steadily increased (along with his drug use), and in 1984 he got an appearance on the talkshow Late Night with David Letterman, which was engineered by his friend Jay Leno. He made an impression on David Letterman, and ended up doing eleven more broadcast show appearances, all hugely popular, despite being bowdlerized versions of his stage shows.
In 1986, Hicks found himself broke after spending all his money on various drugs, but his career got another upturn as he appeared on Rodney Dangerfield's Young Comedians Special in 1987. The same year, he moved to New York City, and for the next five years he did about 300 performances a year. His reputation suffered from his drug use, however, and in 1988, he quit drugs — including alcohol (Hicks recounts his quitting of alcohol in the One Night Stand special and on Flying Saucer Tour Vol. 1.) He fell back to cigarette smoking as his only vice, a theme that would figure heavily in his performances from then on. (On the album Relentless, he jokes that he quit using psychedelics because "once you've been taken aboard a UFO, it's kind of hard to top that.")
An infamous gig in Chicago during 1989, later released as the bootleg I'm Sorry, Folks, resulted in Hicks screaming possibly his most infamous quote, "****** had the right idea, he was just an underachiever" to a heckler shouting "Free Bird" over and over. Hicks followed this remark by a misanthropic tirade calling for unbiased genocide against the whole of humanity, suggesting that it was not an anti-Semitic comment but rather an expression of his disgust with people in general. Hicks often veered between hope and love for the human race and utter hopelessness. In the same gig, he yelled at a female heckler, calling her a, "drunk cunt" and forced her to leave, telling her to "go see something GOOD!"
On October 1, 1993, he was to appear on the David Letterman show for the twelfth time, but his appearance was cancelled somewhat controversially. At the time, Hicks was doing a routine about pro-life organizations, where he encouraged them to "lock arms and block cemeteries" instead of medical clinics, but his routine was cut from the show. Both the show's producers and CBS denied responsibility for the cut, but the reason appeared obvious to many[citation needed] during the following week's Letterman show when a commercial for a pro-life organization was aired. Hicks himself felt betrayed, and hand-wrote a 32-page letter of complaint. Later, Letterman expressed regret at the way Hicks had been handled. Unfortunately Hicks had died by that time, and never heard Letterman's sentiments.
One political event that became an object of interest and fodder for comedy was the storming of the Waco compound of the Branch Davidians under David Koresh. Hicks became convinced that the government initiated the destruction of the compound by setting it on fire (he pointed to footage of a tank allegedly shooting fire into the compound as evidence) and then covered up its actions. He also expressed disappointment with the various overseas bombing campaigns ordered by President Clinton and the Warren Commission explanation of the Kennedy assassination.

Quotes

I was told when I grew up I could be anything I wanted: a fireman, a policeman, a doctor - even President, it seemed. And for the first time in the history of mankind, something new, called an astronaut. But like so many kids brought up on a steady diet of Westerns, I always wanted to be the avenging cowboy hero—that lone voice in the wilderness, fighting corruption and evil wherever I found it, and standing for freedom, truth and justice. And in my heart of hearts I still track the remnants of that dream wherever I go, in my endless ride into the setting sun.

I hate patriotism. . . I can't stand it, man—makes me fuckin' sick. It's a round world last time I checked.

· "A lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. Do you think when Jesus comes back, he's really going to want to see a fucking cross? Ow! Maybe that's why he hasn't shown up yet...it's like going up to Jackie Onassis wearing a sniper rifle pendant... Just thinking of John, Jackie. We love him. Trying to keep that memory alive, baby. [mimes shooting a rifle] I did that routine in Fyffe, Alabama, and after the show these three rednecks came up to me. 'Hey, buddy! C'mere! Hey Mr. Comedian! C'mere! Hey buddy, we're Christians and we don't like what you said!' I said 'Well, then forgive me.' Later, as I was hanging from the tree..." (Relentless video)
· "The world is like a ride at an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it, you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly colored and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time, and they begin to question: Is this real, or is this just a ride? And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, 'Hey – don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because this is just a ride ...' And we ... kill those people. Ha ha, 'Shut him up. We have a lot invested in this ride. Shut him up. Look at my furrows of worry. Look at my big bank account and my family. This just has to be real.' It's just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok. But it doesn't matter, because – it's just a ride. And we can change it anytime we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings and money. A choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead, spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace. Thank you very much, you've been great." [several gunshots ring out, Bill mimes being hit and falls to floor, motionless.] (Onstage closing comments of Hicks's Revelations special from 1993)

more quotes: read these, they are quite illuminating (and funny).
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Bill_Hicks

The stuff about the porno wing seems more than
(I know I'm talking rubbish).

[Joy]

Si > Se
Ne > Ni

[Joy]

going back to the grammar (that was this thread, right?)...

When the parts of a compound subject are joined by
or, but, either ... or, neither ... nor, not only ... but also
the verb must agree with the subject nearest to the verb.

* Neither the Oregon players nor the coach was overconfident.
* Neither the Oregon coach nor the players were intimidated by Arizon

[Angel von Himmel]

doesn't sound "religious" to me

That is not what I ment ...

Anyhow ... I think the guy is obviously Ni: ...

[Gilly]

You're not allowed to use this picture for at least a month.

Oh, and for the record, anyone who has seen even one picture of Hicks and still thinks he's a rational type should not be allowed to offer VI suggestions ever again. The only POSSIBLE type he could be after ENTp is ENFp.

Think about it this way: Does he look more like an ESTp or an ESTj?

[Joy]

I was considering making it my avatar

[Gilly]

I was considering making it my avatar

I actually like your current avatar. It's not as pretentious as your others.

[Joy]

how were my others pretentious??? and how is it that a photo of myself is less pretentious than anything else???