yah.
yah.
The end is nigh
There are both positive and negative aspects to all the functions, which will vary on a number of factors, including mood and mental health.
It's more likely that people are mistyping others, based on such misconceptions than anything else.
Se is "the ability to know how much power, force, or influence is latent or required"The only time in the story in which Saruman displays something describable as the physical confidence of Se is when he battles and imprisons Gandalf in his tower. This scene may very well not exist in nearly the same detail in the actual written story. The rest of the story is all about him commanding things from out of his safe tower where anything physical can not reach him. It's exactly when this physical security gets breached (Ent attack) that things go awry for him.
This doesn't always equate to physical confrontation, but the use of any forceful behavior
See Se PolR in LII's and EII's:
"The individual tends to overreact to aggressive or confrontational behavior, taking it as a personal threat when it may only be a knee-jerk reaction or the result of a bad mood.
He tends to avoid intruding on others' space or engaging in behavior that may be perceived as coercive, and tries hard to handle his needs by being disciplined and well-prepared himself - rather than relying on others to do things for him. If these strategies fail, his efforts at dealing with the resulting conflict make him look actively pushy in a way that appears awkward and unnatural to others. This opens him up to painful criticism and feelings of weakness and helplessness.
He is able to moralize and instruct others about what they should do and why, but he is not prepared for others' active resistance or refusal to do as he says. In his mind, this would require him to put aside reason and good feelings and simply make the other person do what is necessary. This is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for him to do."
Body type is not exclusive to Socionics typeMainly his body type, which is unique to IP types.
Do you just make things up as you go along? SeriouslyThe unworldly uniqueness (there was no "fantasy" at that time in any form close what exists now) of everything he has created is also IP > any other temperament and strongly indicates Ni. Pretty much every other temperament would have stuck to something more recognizable and easy to relate to.
I provided a short example of some of the themes he discusses, that however is not the general reasoning for his typing.Yes, he was worried about very general trends, not specific things that harmed him. Ni > Si.
And "not specific things that harmed him. Ni > Si"
Do you honestly believe that EII's only care about themselves?
Last edited by Marie84; 09-12-2009 at 05:13 AM.
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
It's from Socionics.org I believe. They're rather accurate mottos, as they do sum-up the general ideologies of the quadras due to function preference
It's Ne+Si, but with a slight preference for Fe>Fi. There doesn't seem to be any strong Ti and little Te (just in agriculture), so maybe it's just Alpha+Delta-ishThe shire is a Delta heaven.
A pure Delta society would be a little more...dry
* Alphas feel energized by the free exchange of positive emotional expression in an atmosphere pleasing to the senses (a celebratory atmosphere).
*Alphas show affection for others in the form of small practical services or gifts.
*Alphas focus on maintaining a consistent sense of harmony, where the balance of the immediate environment is mingled with emotional expression.
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
I don't know what book you read, the Shire is full of drama. A lot of weight is put on family names and all that. They're also mistrustful of outsiders, and with the exception of Bilbo and the others, hobbits rarely step into the outside world.
# Delta types value peaceful, refreshing activities where they are doing something useful and balancing out their inner world at the same time.
# Delta types have the philosophy that they will have to rely on their own industriousness to achieve their goals rather than on luck, speculation, group effort, or strong leadership.
The saddest ESFj
...
Movies. Hobbits are a race of SEIs. Every single one of them.
Actually mistypings are happening all around because people are unaware of these things. Typing Gandalf as ENTj would be a great example. With knowledge of ENTjs that is available it is a typing that can immediately be excluded.Originally Posted by Marie84
Descriptions are not magically right just because they are on wikisocion. My opinion of this description, based on my own experiences as an INTj, is that it mistakes certain characteristics of Weak Ti for Weak Se. The only times an INTj really feels bad about imposing himself on others when s/he knows she is justified to do so is when the effect of doing so manifests in a concrete, physical way. It at such times that the action requires a more hands-on, common-sense way of calculating results, something that conflicts with the INTj's predominant mode of thinking.Originally Posted by Marie84
Shortcut to the argument: if Maximillien Robbespiere can be a typical INTj, so can Saruman. The kind of self-confidence they displayed was on the exact same level. Saruman was commanding a bunch of primitives that couldn't begin to resist his rule and oppressed rural peoples that didn't know better than to work for bullies one way or another - except for the hobbits, which were also helpless and harmless for obvious reasons. All of this was happening in places far away from him that he mostly only received the news from by proxy. Conquering western middle-earth was like a game of chess from his position. You're not going to tell me an Se PoLR prevents a person from playing chess effectively.
They're intuitives, so no. But they don't focus on trends as much as INTps do.Originally Posted by Marie84
I don't give a f*ck about Gandalf, just saying.....
Can we get back to the topic at hand?
Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .
That is not Alpha or at least not a good general picture of Alpha. It seems to be a group of either incredibly boring 9w1 ISFps or 9w1 ISTps.Ti/Fe is more dramatic, calculating, "epic", and... natural. That description sounds hoity- toity and pretty damn mediocre.
Lets have a pretty little celebration and give eachother pretty little gifts!
no.
The end is nigh
Bilbo Baggins (ISFp?) was ostracized in the shire for being adventurous. How is that consistent with the place being alpha?
Done.
So could we please move discussion there, so that more positive identification/listing can resume in this thread?
Please move Tolkien and Middle Earth discussion HERE instead. Thanks.
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
He had that go-it-alone attitide. I think an EII would be more dependent on other people. Other people had to intrude on his business to make him realize that he couldn't do it all by himself. Wouldn't you agree that is more characteristic of LIIs than EIIs? The idea that only *I* can do this thing--no one else can help me.
hkkmr posted this about EIIs:
Those in bold would definitely not describe Vash. Vash smiled and joked all the time, like he was hiding some emotional pain. EIIs are much more comfortable in expressing their emotions and sentiments than LIIs (as you should know) prefer to conceal these things to keep the atmosphere from getting heavy and emotional.The ethical subtype appears polite and tactful, constrained and passionless. They tend to keep some distance in dialogue and may seem strict and/or cold. Gradually, however, this impression dissipates as during dialogue their sincere sympathy and desire to assist is revealed. Serious, quiet and benevolent people, are usually scrupulous and tactful, they lack the ability to joke or flatter. In times of dispute with others they prefer to leave silently rather than resort to diplomacy. Are very hardworking, laborious, patient and assiduous. Will not stand for violence and injustice. Consecutive and firm in their principles. Ably creates comfort by decorating the home with hand-made articles – work well with their hands. Countenance is guarded – they seldom smile.. Pays attention towards maintaining a thin figure; dresses modestly with taste and elegance. Their movements are smooth yet firm, their gait quick yet restrained. They sit straight and seldom gesticulate while in conversation.
The saddest ESFj
...
Based on other EIIs I have encountered? No, I wouldn't agree. Vash's "go-it-alone attitude" stemmed from emotional concerns for others. So what you think ought to be is the case for the EII is not necessarily what is.
But I do not think that this was Vash's central motivation for keeping his inner feelings secret. Also keep in mind the nature of Vash's advice and comments that he gave to others. It fell on ethical concerns and ideals, and far less concern on correcting logic and facts. Also consider just how well adjusted Vash is to the emotional suffering of others. How would you expect someone with an Fi-role to react? Would an LII be capable of Vash's level of empathy?hkkmr posted this about EIIs:
Those in bold would definitely not describe Vash. Vash smiled and joked all the time, like he was hiding some emotional pain. EIIs are much more comfortable in expressing their emotions and sentiments than LIIs (as you should know) prefer to conceal these things to keep the atmosphere from getting heavy and emotional.
BTW, Fear of Sleep, have you considered that you might actually be EII?
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
good question.
My personality is one big clusterfuck, but I know that LII is the only thing that can fit. I've hovered around SEI, LSI, EII, and IEI, but it always comes back to LII. Yet, I am steadily becoming more oriented towards personal things, and less about scholarly, intellectual matters. Maybe that's something I should make a video on... when I get around to it.BTW, Fear of Sleep, have you considered that you might actually be EII?
The saddest ESFj
...
lol you kinda make me feel like the robot who thinks he's human.
The saddest ESFj
...
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
More Fictional Alphas:
The Princess Bride
Westley: ILE
Buttercup: SEI
I think the movie is an excellent depiction of the Alpha ideal of love. Notice how love is portrayed not as a static connection (Fi), but as a deeply-felt passion (Fe).
Quaero Veritas.
Dracula (the novel):
Jonathan Harker: LII
Mina Harker: ESE
Dr. Van Helsing: ILE
Dr. Seward: LII?
I get the impression, just from reading the novel, that Bram Stoker was himself LII -- LII seems to be the default model for the characters.
Quaero Veritas.
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
The way you can basically understand the entire plot is "Something happened to influence a character's identity in the past -> they act that out in the present." Definitely Ne, and most likely Fi. I think Alpha characters tend be less "built from the past" than Delta characters (as in, the characters within a work of fiction belonging to one Quadra or the other, the work of fiction being the Quadra inhabitant). For Alpha, think things like The Big Lebowski where all the plot is really based in the present; or Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann where "characters" get mixed in like flour on a regular basis, and you laugh at the way they interact with each other.
I think also an internal theme of "telling stories to people" is very Delta. Robert Heinlein's Time Enough For Love springs to mind, as does The Princess Bride's interactions with the viewer (in the book), or the grandfather's interactions with his grandson (in the movie).
EDIT
Also, on this, the introductory sequence basically explains how Westley and Buttercup grew close and developed enough of a bond for Westley to go seeking her out after a very extended separation. Similarly for Inigo "You Killed My Father" Montoya, he's shown as being "stuck" in that vengeance relationship with Mister Fingers or whatever his name is.
That AFI scored it on their "AFI's 100 Years... 100 Passions" list reinforces that it's quite possible to view the Designated Couple as holding "deep feelings of passion" (Fe) or being "stuck" (Fi).
Last edited by male; 10-01-2009 at 08:15 AM.
Because I saw a static relationship. The "wuv, true wuv" is portrayed as being an unchanging, static connection existing across time between Wesley and Buttercup. There really is not too much of what you would call the emotional efficacy of Fe displayed by too many characters in the film. Instead, the focus is on the nature and shape of the emotional relationships between the characters.
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
About Princess Bride.
Super-Ego is area of idealism and perfection. ILE's are limited in their behavior concerning here because they feel painfully their mistakes. They can cut off relationships for minor problems and maintain relationships that would otherwise end in their mind. It is quite a impractical approach to relations.
Concerning 4th function Fi which is a Inert function
I don't see Wesley as EII, but IEE have a very different view of Fi then ILE's. They're much less fixed in relationships and more fluid.Originally Posted by Wiki
As far as historical precedents and other fictional accounts.
You have a similar idealistic notion of love in Don Quixote, Cyrano De Bergerac(Another Don Quixote), Hunchback of Notre Dame(Quasimodo), D'Artagnan and Constance, The Count of Monte Cristo and Mercedes.
The ideas of lost love, unrequited love, idealistic love, true love are all very common in Alpha literature. The Princess Bride has a similar structure to The Count of Monte Cristo(Dread Pirate Roberts, vengeance, lost love).
Taking historical precedent, we have some like Karl Marx(ILE) who fell in love with his childhood playmate who was 4 years older and outside his class and married her and was with her for the rest of his life. They were engaged secretly for many years before finally getting together. Two people totally devoted to each other.
I think it's very important for us to distance as the sole factor in romantic relationship, because covers more practical relationships as well such as professional relationships and any relationships viewed as positive, or relationships percieved as profitable. This is due to 's duality with .
also is involved in human relationships, these are less forgiving relationships which we view as not merely beneficial or preferential but neccessary. Necessary relationships between people produce by passion, uncontrolled or otherwise with a limited regard for benefit or actual execution.
What is true love but passion without regard for all practicality. But yea... once in a hundred years... It's not the stuff of mundane drudgery.
My bad. I was just thinking over some other things I'd think are Delta having an element of "someone telling someone else a story, within the work of fiction itself", I wasn't saying that the actual act of storytelling belongs to any particular quadra.
Nope!
Thank you! I was going to write up a big post about this, but then you went and said everything I was going to say, only better!
This idea that only Fi types are able to maintain their love over long periods of separation is crazy; if anything an Fi type might be more likely to give up on impractical love due to their valued Te. The reason that Westley and Buttercup maintain their love for one another over so long a separation is not because of some dry Fi bond, but a deep, burning Fe passion which cannot be quenched, and an introverted logic that is not dissuaded by practical realities.
For example, is the "sound of ultimate suffering" that Westley emits under torture a result of Fi, or Fe? I contend that any movie which portrays such an intense display of Fe as profound or meaningful has to be Fe-valuing.
Quaero Veritas.
Fig 1. Intuiters arguing
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
Well, yeah, I agree; I was being subjective for a moment and describing Delta/Gamma relations from an Alpha viewpoint. Since Fi-valuers suppress the expression of Fe, they tend to appear somewhat boring and passionless from an outside Fe-valuer perspective.
Obviously, Fi-valuing types would rather feel positive Fe than negative Fe, but it's not nearly as important to them as it is to Fe-valuing types. Fi-valuing types would rather have a solid, reliable Fi connection than all kinds of intense passion. Fe-valuing types would of course like that too, but it's not as important to them as Fe passion. While both are present in The Princess Bride, the emphasis is pretty clearly on Fe passion, in my opinion.
Quaero Veritas.
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
What Delta types are the characters?
William Goldman deconstructed generations of adventure fiction into this humorous conceptual tale. At once a satire but also a homage.Originally Posted by Copy
He's not the first person to do this, it's happened before.. Don Quixote is the good stuffs edition of a historical story related to Cervantes by Cide Hamete Benengeli.
And if you think this is of no consequence, Cervantes is one of Goldman's favorite authors.
Wesley: LSE
Buttercup: EII
What Alpha types are the characters?
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
Because there isn't one already.
Whenever I think of ESFJs, I think of Prier.
http://disgaea.wikia.com/wiki/Priere
Prier reminds me of my sister, who is ESFJ and has a strong interest in the visual arts.
What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
>_< ...reasons?
Why Captain Jack is ESE should be fairly obvious to anyone even remotely familiar with the character.
What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
Animated/drawn characters are overwhelmingly preferred, for the simple reason that VI correspondence is advantageous. You don't always (or even usually) get VI correspondence between actors and the characters they portray.
Anyway...
Erika from Fire Emblem
http://www.feplanet.net/media/gallery/5/
Tifa from FFVII
VI doesn't work on fictional characters. Period.
What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov