Comments about making Enneagram-Socionics type correlations

[Phaedrus]

If I remember correctly Lytov only used a punche line or some words as a description of the mbti types. Which is an unfair test. (Ofcourse it could be that I'm wrong, but that's what I remember, if we're talking about the same test).

And it was not even MBTT type descriptions they read and tried to compare with the socionic types, as Rick incorrectly stated, but Keirsey type descriptions. Keirsey's type profiles are of course perfectly possible to correlate with the correct socionic types, but the shorter versions of Keirsey's type profiles are too brief and not written in the best way to be entirely satisfactory, and considering the general incompetence and inexperince of those Russian socionists when it comes to actually comparing the three typologies, it is not very surprising that they failed so miserably to match the type profiles with the correct types.

[Phaedrus]

If you can't even back up your claim that most serious socionists believe this view, why on earth should I believe anything you say? You're the one making the controversial claims here, not me.

Stop fucking about, just get the names or admit you're wrong.

Why on earth should you use your own brain? Why on earth should you believe anything unless I have proven it to be true first? Better to hide my head in the mud until I Phaedrus wants to help me out of there and prove things to me so that I can see the light.

[leckysupport]

Why on earth should you use your own brain? Why on earth should you believe anything unless I have proven it to be true first? Better to hide my head in the mud until I Phaedrus wants to help me out of there and prove things to me so that I can see the light.

So you can't back up your claim... you can't even recall a few names... that's all I'm asking... it's not that hard.

[Phaedrus]

So you can't back up your claim... you can't even recall a few names... that's all I'm asking... it's not that hard.

Have you ever checked a Russian socionic site? Have you ever read any socionic article or book written by a Russian socionist? Maybe it's time you do that.

[leckysupport]

Have you ever checked a Russian socionic site? Have you ever read any socionic article or book written by a Russian socionist? Maybe it's time you do that.

Maybe it's time you provided me with names.

[Phaedrus]

Maybe it's time you provided me with names.

Maybe it's time you realize that you are an idiot.

[leckysupport]

Maybe it's time you realize that you are an idiot.

lol, you're a joke.

[Jarno]

No, that's not true. He gave people entire descriptions in Russian from a translation of David Keirsey's "Please Understand Me." The first time was at a conference in Moscow, the second was at the most popular socionics forum.

for reference: http://www.socioniko.net/ru/gazeta/2...alog-mbti.html
(in Russian)

That would be an interesting demonstration here, but since most people came to socionics through MBTT, rather than being unaware of it, I doubt the results would be as telling.

Ah oke. Yes, Please Understand Me is difficult, I can imagine that.

I've made the test, by the way:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...921#post439921

[crazedrat]

If you can't even back up your claim that most serious socionists believe this view, why on earth should I believe anything you say? You're the one making the controversial claims here, not me.

Stop fucking about, just get the names or admit you're wrong.

Give me a reference to something I can read so that I can believe its true, because I desperately need this. Understand this: I ~can't think for myself~. What you say is absolutely meaningless to me until it has proper credentials. If you read something somewhere, ~but do not check the names!~, then it is basically impossible to communicate what you have read to me. End of discussion, k thx!
...
I think this forum contains some of the most cutting edge work in socionics at the moment, anyway. Really, Phaedrus could probably just give you his name and be done with it

[Robot]

She's not finished with it but here's something to tide you over until she is.

http://forum.socionix.com/index.php?...t=0#entry12455

You have to get an account to see it. I would just copy and paste all of it but it takes waaaaaay too long for that. Meh ok I might copy and paste if I have time later...

[Rubicon]

She's not finished with it but here's something to tide you over until she is.

http://forum.socionix.com/index.php?...t=0#entry12455

You have to get an account to see it. I would just copy and paste all of it but it takes waaaaaay too long for that. Meh ok I might copy and paste if I have time later...

that link doesn't take you to Mime's post

[Robot]

that link doesn't take you to Mime's post

Yeah. I think it only works when you have an account and you're logged in.

[Rubicon]

Yeah. I think it only works when you have an account and you're logged in.

I tried that... what's the name of the thread?

[Robot]

I tried that... what's the name of the thread?

It's called "Mime's E-type Blog"


So it still didn't work? Hmm...

[Robot]

Okay so I'm not going to copy and paste ALL of what she has in her blog because some of what she did is copy and past descriptions of 4s and then whatever she identified with she made black but since the default color here is black it doesn't work when I copy and paste her stuff...it just all looks black so I'm just gonna copy and paste the stuff from her blog that I don't have to modify in anyway...if you want to see ALL of her blog you can just view it at socionics...it's in the blog section.

[Robot]

Okay so seeing as that practically the whole world is telling me that I don't exist, I'm using this blog to organize my thoughts as to why I think I'm an enneagram four.

It's been a while since I've read most of the things that made me think I was a four and I don't even remember a lot of my reasoning but the16types is beckoning so here I go....

I'm gonna keep adding more and more stuff.

Here's the first bit of stuff:


Why I’m not a 9:

http://www.ocean-moonshine.net/e1428...position=36:36

“Nines are also not in search of an authentic self or the proper presentation of that self; they are generally somewhat oblivious to these concerns. Finally, Nines tend to relate well to a greater variety of people than do Fours, who often feel like misfits.”

I am most definitely in search of my authentic self and how to present that self. I often feel frustrated at my inability to portray my real self to others. All of those close to me have heard me say “You don’t really know me”…and that’s because I feel that I haven’t been able to show them the real me.



I relate to this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBWyBZLDwCE

It’s not so strong in me now because I have put a lot of effort into consciously working on being more realistic and not expecting so much from people but I still strongly identify with what she was saying. I crave depth intensely. I crave intimacy. I was miserable for years in high school because I didn’t have the intimacy that I wanted and I would get so jealous, whether I’d admit to it or not, when I saw others with deep/close relationships. I identify with everything she said. I want to feel the most intense kind of feeling I can and I want to experience the most intimate intimacy possible. As intimate as you can possibly get, that’s what I want.

I also fantasized about my rescuer. Someone who I would have that insanely close connection with. Someone who, when I got to that place of intimacy with I would be finally happy.


I completely identify with having this ideal self that I thought up in my head that I strive to be. It wasn’t always the same. My idea of what exactly that ideal self was did change over the years but what didn’t change was that I was (whether it be conscious or subconscious. Looking back I realized I was doing it even when at the time I didn’t realize that I was doing it.) always striving to fit into the mold of my ideal self. For the longest time I thought that one day I would finally be this ideal self and have the feeling of “Ahh finally I am that unique and amazing person who I need to be so that I will be loved and accepted.” However now I relate to it differently. This site: http://www.enneagrambook.com/uncateg...-deal-with-it/ helped me to realize that my ideal self doesn’t really exist or matter and that even if I do get myself to be like my ideal self it won’t be that “I have arrived” feeling that I thought it would be. Well actually despite the fact that I’ve realized it I still catch myself trying to figure out who I want and need to be in the back of my head.

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[Robot]

[19:16] Mime: i have this thing
[19:16] Mime: with names
[19:16] Mime: and what people call me
[19:16] Really Cool Person: oh lol
[19:16] Mime: i think it has to do with
[19:16] Mime: my 4ness
[19:17] Mime: like
[19:20] Mime: i like picking just one word that symbolizes who i am...i get a huge kick out of choosing usernames for forums. My favorite is my most recent username for the most recent forum i joined. That one word encapsulating so much of who I feel I am makes me feel like I finally have an identity. Lol I'm so weird.
[19:20] Really Cool Person: yeah
[19:20] Really Cool Person: that's 4 lol

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[Robot]

One of my worst fears is being just another face in the crowd. The thought of being like everyone else is absolutely terrifying. I feel like I need to be loud about my uniqueness. I feel like I always need to leave my stamp of uniqueness wherever I go. I need to be unique with the way I talk. With what I wear. With everything. Those two things in particular have been a great source of frustration. I feel as though I must dress to capture my unique personality (so that when people see me they’ll know I’m unique and they’ll accept me…or at least subconsciously that’s what I think…consciously I know now that I don’t need to be unique to be accepted but it is still so ingrained in me that I need to be unique that I don’t know that I’ll ever be okay with being average and normal.) however when I introspect to see who I am so that I can know what to reflect in my clothing my internal grounds are always shifting. I never know which parts of myself to convey in my clothing. Sometimes I will latch onto one aspect of my personality but that’s never enough. I can never capture my identity in a big enough way to encompass all the complexities and nuances and moving/shifting/changing.

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[Robot]

Mime (1:12:50 AM): do 2s ever get concerned with their identity?
Really Cool Person (1:12:55 AM): aoifnda;sidfna
Really Cool Person (1:12:56 AM): you're a 4
Mime (1:13:06 AM): okay but do they?
Really Cool Person (1:13:10 AM): yes
Really Cool Person (1:13:11 AM): but it's more
Really Cool Person (1:13:22 AM): "if people give me affection, I'm worthy"
Really Cool Person (1:13:23 AM): or some shit
Really Cool Person (1:13:32 AM): like they'll do nice things in order to get people to think they are good people
Mime (1:13:41 AM): not about being unique and separate and different
Really Cool Person (1:13:43 AM): they need you to approve of their favors lol
Really Cool Person (1:13:45 AM): not at all
Really Cool Person (1:13:53 AM): my relative is Si-ESFj 2w3 so/sp
Really Cool Person (1:13:56 AM): and like
Really Cool Person (1:14:03 AM): it's all about external praise and stuff
Really Cool Person (1:14:05 AM): not like 3 persona
Really Cool Person (1:14:48 AM): just thumbs up on what a great person they are lol
Mime (1:15:33 AM): and they unconciously feel they need to be helpful to get love/acceptance/whatever whereas 4s will unconciously feel they need to be unique to get that. right?
Really Cool Person (1:16:05 AM): yeah...like they need to have some ideal self to be worthy of a rescuer

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[Robot]

I guess I'll post more of it later but I gotta get to class...

[Rubicon]

Oh gah ... Idk anymore - I identify with a lot of that stuff.

[Robot]

I really really relate to this guy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3_ITfz-aao

Totally...

"Going deeper and deeper into myself to find that missing piece."
I have to go as deep as possible. I need to go down to the deepest depths of my being.

I need to understand myself. Every inch of myself. Every single tiny little peice, every little part, every little tog, every screw every wire, every motivation, every need, every desire, every emotion, every scar, and how all that works together. Every everything.

And the whole constant torture from idealism and the belief that I'll be fulfilled and happy as soon as I have what I'm missing, what I want, what I envy in others but even if I get those things then it's still not enough and I need more. (Not that I really need more it's just the idealism.)

A big overriding theme in this whole thing is never being satisfied no matter what. And I was reflecting about the other day...I was imagining what it would be like if I actually did understand every single aspect of my whole entire being and I got a horrible feeling. I think on some level I actually WANT to never be satisfied. Or at least on some level I don't want to fully understand myself because then I wouldn't have anything to search for. I wouldn't have anything to figure out anymore. That would just be it. Done. Over. I think the search might be adding some purpose to my life.

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[Robot]

I also used to have emotion and feeling and depth on a pedostool. It took a slap in the face from the internet and then a few months for it to actually sink in for me to realize it though.

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[Robot]

Rumplestiltskin:

Hah. I had been out for hours, and happened to log back in just when you sent this.

Happy holidays to you too, and I'm always up for assisting people with the Enneagram.

What do you need?



theMime.:

Well I'm trying to convince another forum that I'm an enneagram 4. They believe ISFps can’t be enneagram 4s. I've already told them a lot about what I identify with in terms of 4 traits, motivations and fears but they're not convinced. Maybe it's just them and they forgot to put the batteries in their brains but maybe it's just that I don't have a strong argument...nothing to push them over the edge and be convinced.

I need an air-tight argument if that's possible. One that shows that basically there's no way I could really anything other than a 4. I began thinking about what initially lead me to think I was a 4. At first it was just that I identified more with 4 descriptions more than anything else and with more of 4 descriptions than anything else...like if I were to pull up descriptions of all the types and highlight what I identified with the most highlights would always be in the 4 description. And then the fact that I identified with all the core motivations of the four but not of the other types. And then...well I could go on but anyway...



Rumplestiltskin:

TheMime., in the world of typology, there's basically never an air-tight argument for what you are. Personalities are too complex and even the most meticulous typing systems are too open ended. And indeed, there are qualities characteristic of each enneagram type, but there aren't really true/false identifiers for types. There are no guaranteeing identifiers.

You sound confident that you are a Four, and if you went through all the profile descriptions and say that you clearly do identify with the 4 more than all the other types, that's about as good as you can get. What I want to know, is how many other arguments do they have? The fact is, your being an ISFp does not in any way keep you from being a 4.

I'm not sure how much I can help you here, but if you'd like more help then I'd like you tell me what the other reasons are that they think you can't be a 4.



theMime.:
One argument is that I hadn't read any actual books and the internet does not provide sufficient information for self-typing. I think that's bull though. I actually went out and bought one of the Riso and Hudson books...what a waste! Everything in that book was on the net. Another argument was that "Enneagram 4 descriptions are like reading descriptions of Ni." I also think that's absolutely stupid. The enneagram isn't even talking about cognitive processing it's talking about fixations and other things. Another was that fours often have a hard time enjoying the simpler pleasurs of life. In socionics an ISFp's dominant function, Si, is supposedly able to allow the individual to derive pleasure very well and people with Si often derive pleasure out of simple things that others aren't able to. First of all, I doubt that's even true. Second of all, if it is it must not be a requirement for being a socionics ISFp because I'm an ISFp and often have trouble deriving pleasure from the simple things.


Rumplestiltskin:

Well... It reallly sounds like you've got it all figured out, actually.

You are right that Enneagram doesn't match up with cognitive processes. Type 4 does not imply Ni. Ni is, like all perception processes. is about what kinds of information you sub-consciously perceive. The more important point is that it refers to how your mind operates, functionally. The Enneagram on the other hand, is about belief, motive, and things like that. The amount that you use Ni should only corelate very vaugely to your beliefs and motives, and it can corelate in a variety of ways. So, no, you do not have to be an Ni user to be a 4.

I suppose if you make the point to them that you have a hard time deriving pleasure from simple things, then what they may do is drop the case about you not being a 4, but start assertin that you are not an ISFp. They might say you are an INFp instead. It sounds to me like they are being very stubborn.

But like I said, you already seem to understand a lot of this. I think these people might not be worth proving yourself to.

I think there's a clash of weaknesses here in the systems though. I think both Socionic and Enneagram profilers have a tendency to get too carried away with their definitions of types, and they end up generalizing too much. Overlap of the two systems, as carried out by people who are not being skeptical of it, probably excentuates the problem.

.