Comments about making Enneagram-Socionics type correlations

[Robot]

No i'm not saying that. You are saying that ISFP doesn't equal ISFp. Or are you saying that it does now? I'm trying to work out what you think! (I'm also trying to keep up with what appears to be you jumping from system to system.) Can you just calm down and focus on the here and now for a moment? You don't need to pull out a description of anything at the moment. Just clarify your position!

Oh. Okay.

I see a lot of similarities between the MBTT ISFP and the socionics ISFp. I don't necessarily think that if you're one you MUST be the other. But I'm guessing that if you're one you'll most likely be the other. I don't think we can say anything difinitively though...there's no real research on hand...apart from 2 ISFp socionists that claim to be kiersey ISFPs in that study in the other thread but obviously that's not enough to conclude anything.

Hopefully my wording was understandable.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

@ Jem and Cyclops: Sorry. I dunno what came over me. I should have spoken with more respect and politness. Please forgive me.

Oh I just noticed this.. You're posting way too fast just now for me to keep up while I am involved in other things. It's fine..just follow one line of thought for now.. Posting on threads is tricky when there are multiple posts from same person!

[Rubicon]

I really am sorry.

<3

[Phaedrus]

You know, I wish that you WOULD prove that each MBTT type must be their exact same type in socionics.

There is no other "proof" than that the four dichotomies are exactly the same in MBTT and Socionics, that the type descriptions refer to the same groups of people, that the test questions for determining the correct types are almost identical in MBTI tests and Socionics tests, etc. The identity of the types is something you see, when you study these things for some years.

The identity of the types is obvious, and most serious socionists agree that they are. At least no one disputes that the introverted S types are extremely similar in both models. The LSI is the same type as the ISTJ, etc. That all the types are identical is something I have seen, and the only reason others don't accept it as a fact is because they haven't studied them properly. The functions theory in MBTT is of course total bullshit, and you should pay no attention to it. What we should be looking at, and agree on, is the typical behaviours and attitudes of each type, and in that perspective both MBTT and Socionics actually agree on the nature of the 16 types. But all type descriptions -- both in Socionics and in MBTT -- can be improved.

That would only prove my point that socionics INFjs and ISFps CAN be enneagram fours! There are tons of documented cases of MBTT INFJs and ISFPs that are fours.

No. No such evidence exists. INFjs can be 4s, and so can INFps. That's an empirical fact. But it is also an empirical fact that every 4 is an intuitive type, because type 4 is described as the most clearly intuitive of all the types in the Enneagram. If you want to put an ISFp in the group of 4s, you have to modify the Enneagram. But then you have a new model.

[Robot]

There is no other "proof" than that the four dichotomies are exactly the same in MBTT and Socionics, that the type descriptions refer to the same groups of people, that the test questions for determining the correct types are almost identical in MBTI tests and Socionics tests, etc. The identity of the types is something you see, when you study these things for some years.

The identity of the types is obvious, and most serious socionists agree that they are. At least no one disputes that the introverted S types are extremely similar in both models. The LSI is the same type as the ISTJ, etc. That all the types are identical is something I have seen, and the only reason others don't accept it as a fact is because they haven't studied them properly. The functions theory in MBTT is of course total bullshit, and you should pay no attention to it. What we should be looking at, and agree on, is the typical behaviours and attitudes of each type, and in that perspective both MBTT and Socionics actually agree on the nature of the 16 types. But all type descriptions -- both in Socionics and in MBTT -- can be improved.


No. No such evidence exists. INFjs can be 4s, and so can INFps. That's an empirical fact. But it is also an empirical fact that every 4 is an intuitive type, because type 4 is described as the most clearly intuitive of all the types in the Enneagram. If you want to put an ISFp in the group of 4s, you have to modify the Enneagram. But then you have a new model.

.

[strrrng]

And actually I shouldn't have had to say most of the things in that paragraph because figuring out your E type is not rocket science!! It's usually not that hard!! If someone says they’ve done a lot of research and identify with a certain type then that alone is enough!

Bullshit. If you don't understand the system correctly, you will mistype yourself, no matter how well you understand yourself.

I personally don't think SEIs can be 4s (this is just my feeling - no evidence to back it up whatsoever w00t)... because I think an SEI's Si makes them too grounded in the here and now, in physical reality to be able to successfully go about recreating themselves identity-wise. I can see recreating their external image, behaviour etc ... but I can't even conceive of how you would go about recreating your identity as an Si-dominant type. An SEI's identity is tied up with how they relate to the world around them in a sensory way .... so in order to recreate their identity, it'd have to be a very conscious act involving deliberately ignoring their physical instincts or something - it would be more like simply acting. Which I've done in the past, but could never sustain as it tires me out exceedingly. The idea of recreating my identity certainly fascinates me, but I could never seriously entertain the idea because ... Idk - I am who I am who I am. I think that's related to my Si base. lol Reliance on my inate instincts. I don't think it's enough to say I strongly identify with the following - "Want/need/seek to discover or make an identity for his or her self" - therefore I must be a 4. I think nearly every person could relate to that to some degree at some point in their life. I mean I "want/need/seek to ...." but I've realised it's impossible for me to do. w00t I may be going out on a limb here, but I think all SEIs would come to that conclusion if they really know themselves - no matter how much they relate to that statement. I think it comes down to whether or not that motivation pretty much sums your motivations up as a person or not - and I think it can be pretty hard to separate your core motivation (if such a thing exists) from your needs/desires that have arisen from experiences in your life. So I don't think it's as easy as "read them all ... and whichever one you relate to most must be you".

This is incorrect and a horrible justification for an already baseless claim. You don't even understand the 4 motivation, as you literalize it into simply searching for identity, without understanding the underlying motivations for such a behavior. And the argument of being too physically grounded to find one's identity is just wrong. The bolded parts are the most egregious and/or annoying errors.

As Robots ISFp friend doesn't relate to all the mystic mumbo jumbo-as she puts it, she can't be a 4.

Yeah, cause all 4's are D3Lu5i0nAl mystics. You don't understand the 4 at all.

I think you should first know your fixation to find your enneatype. It's not possible to read by the descriptions really, as it's hard to know how we act outwardly. You have to UNDERSTAND what your fixation drives you to do every day. That gives you your enneatype. I guess that's more or less what you wrote?

Yes, agreed.

You don't need to recreate yourself to be a four. The main drive is to FIND YOUR IDENTITY.

Simplification. Who doesn't want to find their identity? Maybe a few people, but it's too simple a characteristic to make it the hallmark of 4's. The reason 4's want to find their identity is because they feel as though a part of themselves was lost/taken in childhood - their pure self - and that something is wrong with them, so they attempt to compensate by cultivating an ideal self, based mainly on stories (some true, some false) from the past and dwelling on specific feelings that cultivate this. Don't you see how much more complex it is than some one-sentence summary?

[Robot]

Simplification. Who doesn't want to find their identity? Maybe a few people, but it's too simple a characteristic to make it the hallmark of 4's. The reason 4's want to find their identity is because they feel as though a part of themselves was lost/taken in childhood - their pure self - and that something is wrong with them, so they attempt to compensate by cultivating an ideal self, based mainly on stories (some true, some false) from the past and dwelling on specific feelings that cultivate this. Don't you see how much more complex it is than some one-sentence summary?

Yes, it is most certainly more complex than that one sentence. I didn't mean to make it seem like that was all there was to it. Apparently I made it seem like that though. Thanks for responding, that paragraph is very useful and IMO right on the money.

You seem to know the enneagram in depth.

Do you agree with me that an INFj and an ISFp could be a 4? Wait did you already say you did?...*re-reads post*

Bullshit.

Well you know her. You tell me if her understanding is way off or not.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Bullshit. If you don't understand the system correctly, you will mistype yourself, no matter how well you understand yourself.



This is incorrect and a horrible justification for an already baseless claim. You don't even understand the 4 motivation, as you literalize it into simply searching for identity, without understanding the underlying motivations for such a behavior. And the argument of being too physically grounded to find one's identity is just wrong. The bolded parts are the most egregious and/or annoying errors.



Yeah, cause all 4's are D3Lu5i0nAl mystics. You don't understand the 4 at all.



Yes, agreed.



Simplification. Who doesn't want to find their identity? Maybe a few people, but it's too simple a characteristic to make it the hallmark of 4's. The reason 4's want to find their identity is because they feel as though a part of themselves was lost/taken in childhood - their pure self - and that something is wrong with them, so they attempt to compensate by cultivating an ideal self, based mainly on stories (some true, some false) from the past and dwelling on specific feelings that cultivate this. Don't you see how much more complex it is than some one-sentence summary?

No.

[strrrng]

Yes, it is most certainly more complex than that one sentence. I didn't mean to make it seem like that was all there was to it. Apparently I made it seem like that though. Thanks for responding, that paragraph is very useful and IMO right on the money.

You seem to know the enneagram in depth.

Do you agree with me that an INFj and an ISFp could be a 4? Wait did you already say you did?...*re-reads post*

Thanks, I have studied it a good amount, and continue to do so, to make sure I don't misinterpret certain facets. And yes, there is no reason why an ISFp or INFj couldn't be a 4. The majority of ISFPs are, some are 9's, 3's and 6's. Most INFj's tend to be 1's or 9's, but some Ne subs are 4's (eunice, christy). Of course, people here will tell you that any INFj 4 is really INFp.

Well you know her. You tell me if her understanding is way off or not.

What?

[strrrng]

No.

how cute lol

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Thanks, I have studied it a good amount, and continue to do so, to make sure I don't misinterpret certain facets. And yes, there is no reason why an ISFp or INFj couldn't be a 4. The majority of ISFPs are, some are 9's, 3's and 6's. Most INFj's tend to be 1's or 9's, but some Ne subs are 4's (eunice, christy). Of course, people here will tell you that any INFj 4 is really INFp.



What?

No.

[Robot]

Thanks, I have studied it a good amount, and continue to do so, to make sure I don't misinterpret certain facets. And yes, there is no reason why an ISFp or INFj couldn't be a 4. The majority of ISFPs are, some are 9's, 3's and 6's. Most INFj's tend to be 1's or 9's, but some Ne subs are 4's (eunice, christy). Of course, people here will tell you that any INFj 4 is really INFp.



What?

Mime girl on youtube.

[Robot]

No.

Strrng's paragraph on four motivations captured the complexity of it and was right on the money. I seriously doubt that you can find anything in the enneagram realm that says other wise.

[strrrng]

Mime girl on youtube.

Oh, what about her? We're friends and I think she's a 4w5 sx/so Si-ISFp. I saw some video she made about myers briggs, but what are you asking?

[strrrng]

Strrng's paragraph on four motivations captured the complexity of it and was right on the money. I seriously doubt that you can find anything in the enneagram realm that says other wise.

Or that he can produce anything of his own that would be better.

It's ok lol, what he's doing is quite transparent, and is the same exact thing his ISTp counterpart luis did a while back. Which is why I said it was cute.

[Rubicon]

Simplification. Who doesn't want to find their identity? Maybe a few people, but it's too simple a characteristic to make it the hallmark of 4's. The reason 4's want to find their identity is because they feel as though a part of themselves was lost/taken in childhood - their pure self - and that something is wrong with them, so they attempt to compensate by cultivating an ideal self, based mainly on stories (some true, some false) from the past and dwelling on specific feelings that cultivate this. Don't you see how much more complex it is than some one-sentence summary?

So you're saying that 4s have to have had a screwed-up childhood that they can't come to terms with? That's ridiculous.

[strrrng]

So you're saying that 4s have to have had a screwed-up childhood that they can't come to terms with? That's ridiculous.

Wow, you're dumb. I wasn't promoting any stupid freudian shit. 4's don't have to have endured abuse to have the fixation. It's MENTAL. All I said was that they FEEL - meaning a belief - as though a part of them (internally) was lost in childhood. I didn't say it was for a specific reason.

[Rubicon]

Wow, you're dumb. I wasn't promoting any stupid freudian shit. 4's don't have to have endured abuse to have the fixation. It's MENTAL. All I said was that they FEEL - meaning a belief - as though a part of them (internally) was lost in childhood. I didn't say it was for a specific reason.

And they're searching for this part that's missing so they can piece together their identity? So their ultimate goal is to present their truly authentic self ... so the trying on identities thing is an unhealthy 4's behaviour?

[strrrng]

And they're searching for this part that's missing so they can piece together their identity? So their ultimate goal is to present their truly authentic self ... so the trying on identities thing is an unhealthy 4's behaviour?

Trying to reconnect with their "true" self, yes - the self that was lost/tainted. So they cultivate an ideal self, which does encompass trying on different identities. It also is about taking traits and internalizing them, adding them to the conglomeration, comparing one's self to others, noticing what they have that we don't. It sucks lol. And yeah, the more focused on "specialness" a 4 gets, and the less they think they are being recognized/appreciated, the more unhealthy they are. Overcoming the idea that something is wrong with them is the goal. I haven't overcome this in the least bit. I'm probably in the average levels of health (second tier, there are three). whatever. I tend to just constantly look inward and try to find the traits that are stable and which I truly like, notice which parts of my ideals actually correspond to reality, have withdrawn tendencies (not letting the world detract from the ideals), etc.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Still, following expectations and a perfectionistic voice has it's upsides : I have had a lot of external success, people are pleased with me, and I feel very proud of my achievements. BUT : unfortunately I feel that I never did it "my way", and my real dreams were abandoned for a life others wanted. Not my own. That's really painful to admit.

I have the opposite problem. I have like, so little external success, but I follow my own way completely.

Maybe we could help each other. But I wouldn't count on it, it seems like I don't know. The more people try to help the worse it gets. In the end we all are who we are. Victim of circumstance. It's hard to overcome those innate weaknesses. But we still need others for support to know that we're not alone in dealing with our weird complexes.

Souls are fickle things.

[Rubicon]

Trying to reconnect with their "true" self, yes - the self that was lost/tainted. So they cultivate an ideal self, which does encompass trying on different identities. It also is about taking traits and internalizing them, adding them to the conglomeration, comparing one's self to others, noticing what they have that we don't. It sucks lol. And yeah, the more focused on "specialness" a 4 gets, and the less they think they are being recognized/appreciated, the more unhealthy they are. Overcoming the idea that something is wrong with them is the goal. I haven't overcome this in the least bit. I'm probably in the average levels of health (second tier, there are three). whatever. I tend to just constantly look inward and try to find the traits that are stable and which I truly like, notice which parts of my ideals actually correspond to reality, have withdrawn tendencies (not letting the world detract from the ideals), etc.

When you talk of trying on identities and internalising traits ... can you recognise when the traits aren't right for you - in terms of your actual identity? Do they not just feel wrong or something? And your "ideal self" which you try to cultivate - why would that necessarily be your actual self? At the end of the day, would you rather be your genuine, though flawed, self or a conglomeration of "ideal" traits?

[strrrng]

When you talk of trying on identities and internalising traits ... can you recognise when the traits aren't right for you - in terms of your actual identity? Do they not just feel wrong or something? And your "ideal self" which you try to cultivate - why would that necessarily be your actual self? At the end of the day, would you rather be your genuine, though flawed, self or a conglomeration of "ideal" traits?

Well, I tend to view whatever "identity" I have as amorphous, so I can't always tell when traits/ideals are wrong, because I may be enveloped in the present moment and they could feel right, but wouldn't actually be part of my core substance. So, it's like a continuous stream of emotion with highs and lows, and eventually you gain some sense of where the consistency is, but there's always something missing, something new that needs to be learned. The only way to know my "actual" identity would be to abandon this and just accept the bare reality, and risk seeing that there is nothing there. Seriously, I have some impending fear of nothingness, like reality is eluding and/or suffusing me and there's nothing I can do; like I'm trapped and everything I sought has evaporated into the past, lost forever; like there is no hope for me to have significance. These states happen fairly often, and there is typically nothing I can do besides endure, bask in the suffering and wait for it to pass. But at those times, everything seems gone, making me think I've been incredibly precarious all along, a fraud, so I tend to ignore them afterwards, and jump back into the stream.

[Gilly]

Well, I tend to view whatever "identity" I have as amorphous, so I can't always tell when traits/ideals are wrong, because I may be enveloped in the present moment and they could feel right, but wouldn't actually be part of my core substance. So, it's like a continuous stream of emotion with highs and lows, and eventually you gain some sense of where the consistency is, but there's always something missing, something new that needs to be learned. The only way to know my "actual" identity would be to abandon this and just accept the bare reality, and risk seeing that there is nothing there. Seriously, I have some impending fear of nothingness, like reality is eluding and/or suffusing me and there's nothing I can do; like I'm trapped and everything I sought has evaporated into the past, lost forever; like there is no hope for me to have significance. These states happen fairly often, and there is typically nothing I can do besides endure, bask in the suffering and wait for it to pass. But at those times, everything seems gone, making me think I've been incredibly precarious all along, a fraud, so I tend to ignore them afterwards, and jump back into the stream.

qf complete identification

[Rubicon]

Well, I tend to view whatever "identity" I have as amorphous, so I can't always tell when traits/ideals are wrong, because I may be enveloped in the present moment and they could feel right, but wouldn't actually be part of my core substance. So, it's like a continuous stream of emotion with highs and lows, and eventually you gain some sense of where the consistency is, but there's always something missing, something new that needs to be learned. The only way to know my "actual" identity would be to abandon this and just accept the bare reality, and risk seeing that there is nothing there. Seriously, I have some impending fear of nothingness, like reality is eluding and/or suffusing me and there's nothing I can do; like I'm trapped and everything I sought has evaporated into the past, lost forever; like there is no hope for me to have significance. These states happen fairly often, and there is typically nothing I can do besides endure, bask in the suffering and wait for it to pass. But at those times, everything seems gone, making me think I've been incredibly precarious all along, a fraud, so I tend to ignore them afterwards, and jump back into the stream.

That sounds fascinating. I know you're describing it from your Ni point of view, but still - I think SEIs' experiences would mostly fill the gaps in their identity. Or perhaps they just go about their identity search in a more tangible way? I can relate to the fear of looking inwards and finding nothing, but this sort of state is arrived at when I've isolated myself from people - uh experiences in general. Or I've been letting myself be too detached ... and start to feel that I'm not connected to my emotions. I'm just going through the motions. But immersing myself in something, actively trying to connect with people fixes that. You know what you wrote in another thread about introversion being negative space? That resonated with me in regards to my Si. The connections between me and people/objects are how I define myself. And I'd think that would be true of all SEIs. So I can't see how an SEI would have that much of a problem with an identity crisis ... though I could see feeling that way if her connections with people/experiences weren't of a good quality.

[strrrng]

That sounds fascinating. I know you're describing it from your Ni point of view, but still - I think SEIs' experiences would mostly fill the gaps in their identity. Or perhaps they just go about their identity search in a more tangible way?

I really don't think there would be that much of a difference. Like yes, Si is more externally defined than Ni, but that doesn't in any way conflict with the essential 4 fixation. I just think too many people here view 4's as some spiritual introspectives who go through the byzantine-like mazes of the psych and emotions to reach the gold at the end of the rainbow that is their identity. We're really not *that* voodoo'ish lol.

I can relate to the fear of looking inwards and finding nothing, but this sort of state is arrived at when I've isolated myself from people - uh experiences in general. Or I've been letting myself be too detached ... and start to feel that I'm not connected to my emotions. I'm just going through the motions. But immersing myself in something, actively trying to connect with people fixes that.

This sounds like the 9 fixation of wanting harmony and connection.

You know what you wrote in another thread about introversion being negative space? That resonated with me in regards to my Si. The connections between me and people/objects are how I define myself. And I'd think that would be true of all SEIs. So I can't see how an SEI would have that much of a problem with an identity crisis ... though I could see feeling that way if her connections with people/experiences weren't of a good quality.

I don't think Si can be simplified to "connections between me and people/objects." That's far too general to be applied to one specific function. Think about the other field functions and how they do that. I think the reason the "connections between you and people/things" defines you is because that is the essence of the 9 personality; cognitive functions are much more abstract.

[strrrng]

qf complete identification

You mean you identify?

[Gilly]

yes

[strrrng]

yes

gilly four the win lol

[Gilly]

[Gilly]

You consider that to be four related?

[Phaedrus]

SLUAI is the same type as ENFp. And an ENFj cannot be type 7. So there is a Gilly guy here who is confused and wrong about his type(s). EP temperament seems obvious based on test results and self-descriptions, so a belief in ENFj is a sure sign of delusion. Where is his shrink?

[strrrng]

You consider that to be four related?

um...the themes of the amorphous internal identity and feeling defective/empty, yes, generally.

[strrrng]

SLUAI is the same type as ENFp. And an ENFj cannot be type 7. So there is a Gilly guy here who is confused and wrong about his type(s). EP temperament seems obvious based on test results and self-descriptions, so a belief in ENFj is a sure sign of delusion. Where is his shrink?

lol @ you correlating big five traits with psychic functions AND behavioral fixations. Ti ftw!

[Gilly]

SLUAI is the same type as ENFp. And an ENFj cannot be type 7. So there is a Gilly guy here who is confused and wrong about his type(s). EP temperament seems obvious based on test results and self-descriptions, so a belief in ENFj is a sure sign of delusion. Where is his shrink?

Try harder next time. It'll work, I promise.

[Phaedrus]

lol @ you correlating big five traits with psychic functions AND behavioral fixations. Ti ftw!

What I am doing is a synthesis, not an analysis. Correlating ideas from different fields of science is , and it corresponds to the dialectical-algorithmic thinking style described by Gulenko in his article (which you can find in the Article section).

is analysis and projecting subjective ideas onto reality. That's not what I am doing, and the only reason you think that I am is because you don't understand the difference between and . All of what I am saying is described in the socionic literature, which you either haven't read or haven't understood.

[iAnnAu]

Well, I tend to view whatever "identity" I have as amorphous, so I can't always tell when traits/ideals are wrong, because I may be enveloped in the present moment and they could feel right, but wouldn't actually be part of my core substance. So, it's like a continuous stream of emotion with highs and lows, and eventually you gain some sense of where the consistency is, but there's always something missing, something new that needs to be learned. The only way to know my "actual" identity would be to abandon this and just accept the bare reality, and risk seeing that there is nothing there. Seriously, I have some impending fear of nothingness, like reality is eluding and/or suffusing me and there's nothing I can do; like I'm trapped and everything I sought has evaporated into the past, lost forever; like there is no hope for me to have significance. These states happen fairly often, and there is typically nothing I can do besides endure, bask in the suffering and wait for it to pass. But at those times, everything seems gone, making me think I've been incredibly precarious all along, a fraud, so I tend to ignore them afterwards, and jump back into the stream.

While I can sympathize with this, my own feelings are different. The first three sentences are roughly ways I feel as well; although I would describe it a little differently, I think it just comes down to semantics. But I don't have a fear of nothingness - the reality suffusing me kinda thing is pretty much what *creates* my significance, and I feel like I'm at my best when I can "live up to" what IS right NOW. It's the history of my "being in reality" that leads to my story about my self.
Ultimately, I'm not sure we're describing something that's so different, again except semantically, because although I don't notice the fear that you mention, you do also mention jumping back into the stream. Maybe where you exercise courage, I'm simply impatient?
... not that I'm suggesting I'm a four!
But maybe there's something to the very fact that you and I would describe this differently?

[strrrng]

While I can sympathize with this, my own feelings are different. The first three sentences are roughly ways I feel as well; although I would describe it a little differently, I think it just comes down to semantics. But I don't have a fear of nothingness - the reality suffusing me kinda thing is pretty much what *creates* my significance, and I feel like I'm at my best when I can "live up to" what IS right NOW. It's the history of my "being in reality" that leads to my story about my self.
Ultimately, I'm not sure we're describing something that's so different, again except semantically, because although I don't notice the fear that you mention, you do also mention jumping back into the stream. Maybe where you exercise courage, I'm simply impatient?
... not that I'm suggesting I'm a four!
But maybe there's something to the very fact that you and I would describe this differently?

Maybe you're a 9. 9's and 4's both share themes of being past-focused and engaging in daydreaming, albeit towards different ends.

[Rubicon]

But I don't have a fear of nothingness - the reality suffusing me kinda thing is pretty much what *creates* my significance, and I feel like I'm at my best when I can "live up to" what IS right NOW. It's the history of my "being in reality" that leads to my story about my self.

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was meaning with Si base. Reality pretty much creates an identity for us I think. Whether or not reality sucks is a different story.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was meaning with Si base. Reality pretty much creates an identity for us I think. Whether or not reality sucks is a different story.

I think what you wrote about this was fair enough, especially for a post on a socionic forum, of where there are many posts. There will always be people who nit pick if they want. Even the ILI description which has been evolved longer than what people spend writing a post, is creating discontent in some circles. I think most people know what you were getting at, or they should be able to

[Rubicon]

I think most people know what you were getting at, or they should be able to

So I should shut up now? (c: