Governments for the Quadras

[DirectorAbbie]

What do you think would be the ideal government for each quadra? Brilliand and I thought of these:

Alpha: True communism
Beta: Dictatorship
Gamma: Money-based (forgot the name of it)
Delta: City-state Oligarchy

[Expat]

What do you think would be the ideal government for each quadra? Brilliand and I thought of these:

Alpha: True communism
Beta: Dictatorship
Gamma: Money-based (forgot the name of it)
Delta: City-state Oligarchy

Money-based is plutocracy.

Gamma's government is of a plutocratic elite, diffuse enough to avoid any one person's dictatorship, and hereditary to a large degree, but not rigidly so.

Delta's government I see rather as "small-town communitary values" with weak central government.

[mikemex]

Delta's government I see rather as "small-town communitary values" with weak central government.

Ala "Switzerland".

[kensi]

What do you think would be the ideal government for each quadra? Brilliand and I thought of these:

Alpha: True communism
Beta: Dictatorship
Gamma: Money-based (forgot the name of it)
Delta: City-state Oligarchy

this is somehat hard to allign these properly.... but dont you think that a lot of ESTPs are exactly against dictatorship "musts" as their Ti stimulus forces them to do things beyond the expectancy of JE.

[Ezra]

this is somehat hard to allign these properly.... but dont you think that a lot of ESTPs are exactly against dictatorship "musts" as their Ti stimulus forces them to do things beyond the expectancy of JE.

What the fuck is "JE"?

Said SLEs normally overthrow the dictator and become dictators themselves. They are their to challenge the opposition. If they are in power, the challenge is democracy.

[Expat]

Ala "Switzerland".

Yeah.

Said SLEs normally overthrow the dictator and become dictators themselves. They are their to challenge the opposition. If they are in power, the challenge is democracy.

I think that SLE dictators don't really think in terms of "democracy" being their challenge. My impression is that they tend to see opposition to their dictatorship as simply a struggle from proponents of another form of + system. That is precisely why the old-fashioned communists coined the phrase "bourgeoise democracy", that is, they see "democracy" as just a name to disguise the rule of an elite.

[Expat]

That's my simplistic idea of how the quadras proceed historically in terms of government.

Alpha is the pre-government quadra. Alpha is concerned with exploring ideas and systems, but not primarily with implementing any kind of system, let alone with organizing something for longer-term needs. Alpha is the quadra of instant self-gratification, both sensorially and intellectually. Except in situations of obvious abundance - precisely Marx's eventual communist society - Alpha does not naturally flourish as to their material needs; in the absence of such an ideal situation, Alpha generates ideas, and creates the demand, for the implementation - by others - of a system that will allow them not to concern themselves with the means to provide abundance. Again, this is illustrated precisely by Marx wanting a communist state to "appear", yet not devoting much thought to how it would actually work. That would be Te+Ni.

Beta is the quadra of implementing government. One system is chosen - based on + input - and given Ti structure, and then imposed as a + system. The system is ultimately based on the internal elements, +, and it can be literally anything. Since Beta is totally persuaded of the correctness of the chosen system, the priority is to implement it at all costs and with less regard to how it actually works (Te) than to its structural purity (Ti). Only in such a way can a consistent govermental structure be imposed where there was previously none.

Gamma is the quadra of making an existing government actually work - work as to its long-term sustainability and as to how it performs according to external, not internal, criteria: +, and not Ti. An existing, previous Ti structure is "toned down" in specifics, but not replaced, and it is made to work according to the individuals exercising power, and focused on specific cases - Ti+Se becomes Fi+Se. The ultimate "grade" of the government is no longer Ti but Te.

Delta is the post-government quadra. Te performance is reached and sort of taken for granted - the existing Te situation is thought to become the "state of things" - Te+Ni becomes +. And, in that situation, the previous case-by-case, individual-focused Se+Fi structure is now "dissolved" into +. That is to say, not even the individual-focused power structure is kept.

Just like under Alpha the Ti+Ne involved the generation of ideas to introduce a + system to satisfy the + needs, under Delta the fulfillment of + needs leads to the abandonment of Se+Fi in favor of + "small-town inclusiveness" and absence of frontiers.

In a way, the Delta post-government state is the ultimate fulfillment of Alpha's desire - like what Marx wished.

[Expat]

Obviously, that is assuming that nothing "turns the clock back". A Delta "state of small-town prosperity" can easily revert to an "Alpha state of claiming for Beta government" under certain external circumstances.

A Gamma state of "making an existing government work" can easily be thrown off-balance by situations that invalidate the working of that system, and then Beta is needed to implement another system.

An Alpha pre-state situation can endure forever if there is already, due to some reason, a state of material satisfaction, which does not require the "demand for Beta".

In fact, each of those systems can endure "forever" depending on the circumstances, but I would argue that the "natural" and peaceful evolution is, obviously, Alpha ->Beta -> Gamma-> Delta.

[ann2430]

What do you think would be the ideal government for each quadra? Brilliand and I thought of these:

Alpha: True communism
Beta: Dictatorship
Gamma: Money-based (forgot the name of it)
Delta: City-state Oligarchy

I am not sure about the first three, but the description of delta seems pretty accurate. I am an INFj and definitely prefer smaller, decentralized government. I think it's far more effective and there is no need for government to control everything in society.

[Expat]

If we are playing with theory here, I would say that Alphas and Deltas would be more concerned with the more abstract qualities while still participating fully in it (i.e. John Stuart Mill), which would include rights and what I suppose could be called governmental apologetics.

You see, to be more concerned with the abstract qualities, or governmental apologetics, is related to the idea of "inventing government" - and wasn't Al Gore (LII I think) who suggested, as one of his vice-presidential tasks, "reinventing government"? Maxime seemed to be far keener on creating, or dissecting, theories of government than on implementing them - I prefer to regard his use of Terror as a desperate aberration rather than a natural inclination. In one of my early "concrete metaphors" to describe Ti, I chose precisely one about writing a constitution. This all fits in my view of Alpha as being pre-government, asking for government, and even creating government.

[strrrng]

In one of my early "concrete metaphors" to describe Ti, I chose precisely one about writing a constitution.

lol

[Logos]

You see, to be more concerned with the abstract qualities, or governmental apologetics, is related to the idea of "inventing government" - and wasn't Al Gore (LII I think) who suggested, as one of his vice-presidential tasks, "reinventing government"? Maxime seemed to be far keener on creating, or dissecting, theories of government than on implementing them - I prefer to regard his use of Terror as a desperate aberration rather than a natural inclination. In one of my early "concrete metaphors" to describe Ti, I chose precisely one about writing a constitution. This all fits in my view of Alpha as being pre-government, asking for government, and even creating government.

But it is more than inventing government or pre-government, as it is also issues-oriented and the expansion of human rights.

[Simon Ssmall]

Delta - Tribal Community

[idolatrie]

Dictatorship leaves too much room for grassroots revolution to suit Beta.

[strrrng]

There needs to be another beta extermination campaign.

[Gilly]

Dictatorship leaves too much room for grassroots revolution to suit Beta.

There needs to be another beta extermination campaign.

Speaking of which...

Beta - Fascism

[unefille]

Beta: EMPIRE

[implied]

Dictatorship leaves too much room for grassroots revolution to suit Beta.

is this sarcastic?

[idolatrie]

is this sarcastic?

Um...no?

Most grassroots revolutions have occurred under oppressive dictatorial regimes, and I'd see the revolutionaries as being more likely to have Beta values than an entrenched dictatorship, or at least equally likely.

[unefille]

Um...no?

Most grassroots revolutions have occurred under oppressive dictatorial regimes, and I'd see the revolutionaries as being more likely to have Beta values than an entrenched dictatorship, or at least equally likely.

I wonder how much conflict is in fact instigated by Betas against Betas. Given the subjectivity of both and , two Beta factions can share the same socionics values and yet eerily different social and political values, notions of appropriateness etc.

In those instances, it would very much be a fight to the death for the world you believe in bringing about. I just can't imagine Betas really getting into a conflict with Deltas; it would be like trying to sledgehammer cotton-wool. Blood and Iron and all that good stuff: Beta v Beta. Maybe Gamma can play a little as well.

[implied]

Um...no?

Most grassroots revolutions have occurred under oppressive dictatorial regimes, and I'd see the revolutionaries as being more likely to have Beta values than an entrenched dictatorship, or at least equally likely.

really? i was thinking of the vast number of beta revolutionaries there have been. in the sort of cyclical sense of how beta seems to work, i don't see grassroots revolutions as anything out of line with beta quadra values. if you don't like the current authoritarian government, overthrow it and get a new authoritarian government.

[idolatrie]

Most grassroots revolutions have occurred under oppressive dictatorial regimes, and I'd see the revolutionaries as being more likely to have Beta values than an entrenched dictatorship, or at least equally likely.

really? i was thinking of the vast number of beta revolutionaries there have been. in the sort of cyclical sense of how beta seems to work, i don't see grassroots revolutions as anything out of line with beta quadra values. if you don't like the current authoritarian government, overthrow it and get a new authoritarian government.

i was thinking of the cuban revolution honestly. at any rate, i find it incredibly ironic that betas are complaining about how much "room" there is for revolution, when i see revolts as almost something central to how beta works.

It looks like my original point got somewhat misinterpreted here, perhaps due to lack of explanation on my part.

I said that I didn't think dictatorship was a Beta form of government because dictatorships often breed grassroots revoluntionary campaigns. Thus a structure which is so vulnerable to such overthrow is not likely to be Beta. This was working on the presumption that a dictatorship is led by one person, and implemented by an empowered body. I was actually thinking exactly of the Cuban revolution - overthrow of a corrupt dictator who ruled on the back of a military coup, by a group of revolutionaries who seemed to say 'this is not the right way of doing things, we need to implement a new system'. (Se + Ti)

Based off my admittedly hasty consideration of the topic when I first posted, I thought that a dictatorship was too internally vulnerable a system to be claimed as 'the' Beta form of government. I'd go with something more like a ruling aristocracy, oligarchy or, yes, the 'empire' thing instead. Having a broader base of influence through a less vulnerable leadership seems more Fe than extolling a single leader who due to his 'single' state would never be able to have the reach of a group/class of leaders, nor is the power base protected if that leader falters. (Which I was reading in a more Fi light - that the appeal of the single leader would remain constant and be the basis of his support. Though if that lagged, force could be used to maintain that power: Se. You can probably see where I'm going with that line of thought...Gamma>Beta.)

So I was essentially saying that grassroots revolutions are more Beta than dictatorships, though not discounting the attribution to Beta of the latter. I don't quite know what you thought I said. I do take your point, however, that the dictatorship-revolution-dictatorship cycle in whole could be seen as countervailing Beta movements. But I was disputing that dictatorship alone is the Beta mode of government.

[Nexus]

Dictatorship leaves too much room for grassroots revolution to suit Beta.

+1

There needs to be some form of self-sustaining mechanism like in Brave New World or 1984, otherwise anyone can come along as soon as the dictator dies and turn it into a democracy.

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...tional_quadras

[DirectorAbbie]

I don't know about other Deltas, but anarchy (with some rules) or democracy seems to fit me better. I can't stand elitism in any form. (weak point, I know...)

Oligarchy might work if any person in the elite was in leadership position for only a short period of time, and if everyone in the society sooner or later would have to serve as part of the elite. No fixed elite, so to say.

I don't say it is effective. I just thought it would be more Delta.

That's what I thought at first, but with an anarchy we might get disorganized, and how do we stop the Betas from invading if there's nobody to coordinate movements?

Delta - Tribal Community

Precisely! But I reffered to it as a city-state oligarchy.

I just can't imagine Betas really getting into a conflict with Deltas; it would be like trying to sledgehammer cotton-wool...

Lol!

[DirectorAbbie]

I see. But in my "ideal government" (ruled by all people) there shouldn't be any power people... In that case it is not ideal.

If we have to include the other quadras, I'll go for an elite including ONLY deltas.

Actually the idea was to have 4 seperate countries; in a square like this.

Beta Gamma
Alpha Delta

[DirectorAbbie]

Hehehe... Sounds even better. Could I keep my Alpha husband with me?

Sure! You can live on the border. And you can keep any non-Delta kids until they're 16.

[DirectorAbbie]

You say I'd have to send my BETA son away at 16??? To them evil betas??? Think what evils my good influence could save him form!

Lol. 'Course being a beta, he may prefer to leave.

[leckysupport]

I don't know about other Deltas, but anarchy (with some rules) or democracy seems to fit me better.

To be delta I think the nation has to be something like this:

Sensible implementation of ideas, each implementation being based on the case at hand (not consistency of ideas) nothing rash or stupid being done.
Avoiding excessive harshness (on the general population) when it comes to implementing policies, unless absolutely necessary (probably less so in places and times that are violent).

Conservative, risk avoidance, tons of clever back-up plans, stable, prosperous etc.

^^That's probably more Te/Fi.

Anarchy makes no sense from a purely Te perspective (ignores basic principles about how everything works) and it's risky to implement, anarchy is probably Alpha (it has a lot of hippy overtones) or Beta depending on it's type.

[Ezra]

Dictatorship leaves too much room for grassroots revolution to suit Beta.

Agreed.

There needs to be another beta extermination campaign.

Agreed.

Speaking of which...

Beta - Fascism

No. Fascism = Beta.

Actually, I think if I was the dictator or part of the high command, I could dig fascism. I would happily rule over the scum of the earth (90% of the world; oh, BurntOrange, don't you just LOVE that figure ).

Even better: an oligarchy. Instead of the cult of the leader, you have... the cult of the leaders! YES. Gilly, you and I will begin this.

Beta: EMPIRE

HEIL THE FOURTH REICH!

[strrrng]

I would happily rule over the scum of the earth (90% of the world; oh, BurntOrange, don't you just LOVE that figure ).

ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Gilly]

Even better: an oligarchy. Instead of the cult of the leader, you have... the cult of the leaders! YES. Gilly, you and I will begin this.

I'm ready when you are.

[Ezra]

I just felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if a couple million souls suddenly cried out in terror ...

What? Oh yeah, those guys. Yeah, they had hook noses. They had to go.

You say I'd have to send my BETA son away at 16??? To them evil betas??? Think what evils my good influence could save him form!

"Those" evil Betas, "those".

Then again, what could one possible expect from a Ti PoLR.

[Logos]

There is a difference between you? I thought you all wanted power??

Some just want lots of teh Sex.

[leckysupport]

That's more or less what I meant by anarchy with rules... Weigh every situation and not have general rules. The only rule you would need then is "be nice to people".

But it's not sensible, people are just not going to be nice.

[Simon Ssmall]

Betas are creepy...

.



Tribal community where most of stuff is decided by common sense depending on the issue at hand! Yarrr.