what's ironic is that both of them would be more accepted there as deltas.Originally Posted by Elro
what's ironic is that both of them would be more accepted there as deltas.
6w5 sx
model Φ: -+0
sloan - rcuei
Deltas have themselves too easily victimized. The anti-Delta attitude, which is mainly from the Gamma quadra imo, which says more about Gamma than about Delta. Could it be that some of them are envious?
You would expect Betas to vent anti-Delta sentiments even more, but I guess Betas have a similar need to stay away from Deltas as Deltas from Betas. Something like conflict type relation (i.e. not really conflict, but an uneasy sense that things could easily get out of hand, so everybody is walking on eggshells to prevent total war).
I stand by my sig.
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
Brilliand said he couldn't figure me out before he discussed it with me. He mentioned a couple of introverted things (I believe INTp was one) that he considered, but once I understood the types it was pretty easy to figure out what I was. And nobody has suggested otherwise.
Give it time.
"Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."
- Voltaire
Suggested Types:
ENFp - seems to fit best so far; the one big discrepancy is my seeming IP temperament.
INFj - I'm not j, nor am I IJ.
ISFj - not even.
ENTp - This has been suggested, but I guess I'm too F for it.
INFp - IP temperament, yes. Butvaluing; I think a Se-leading would drive me up a wall.
INTp - I thought about this briefly before an ENTp told me I used too many exclamation marks.
Haha...we're only kind-hearted until we get PO'd. Then we're scary.
Johari/Nohari
"Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."
Fruit, the fluffy kitty.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Yeah, seriously.
Guh, I don't see any problem with this thread at all, whether or not JuJu is or isn't a Delta. Even if he is an IEE, why can't he make such a thread? Big fucking deal... it was pretty funny to me. I suppose "TRUE" Deltoids don't have any sense of humor, right?? They're always down to earth and uber serious, planting seeds in the dirt because gardening is their only real past-time. If they enjoy anything cruder than that, they're obviously NOT Delta. Jeez.
I really don't understand why these 3 Gammas (implied, niffweed17, Expat) in particular have such a huge grudge against JuJu. Perhaps he's ALPHA?!?!?!? OMG WHAZZAGOINONHURR?!?!
Who said he can't?
Or perhaps the "huge grudge against JuJu" exists only in your imagination.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
I really appreciate this, ScarlettLux... Thank you.
To be honest, I'm still under the impression that Expat is trying to be helpful... I respect him... I respect his knowledge about Socionics, and in private, he's been very gracious to me... In pubic, even when he's disagreed with me, he hasn't engaged in the sort of petty name-calling that the others have, and I appreciate that.
His first post in this thread makes me wonder if he doesn't understand the situation, (i.e. that Implied etc are essentially following me from post-to-post, harassing--and that I'm not willing just to 'take it' and say nothing,) or perhaps he isn't yet aware that when Deltas get pissed off, they can use satire to make a point, (see: Moliere, prominent French satirist, widely typed as ENFp by the Russians... On Rick's benchmark list as ENFp.) Not that my stupid post is comparable to the satire of a world-class writer, lol--I'm trying to make the point that Deltas can 'fire back.' There's nothing un-Delta about putting up a fight when attacked.
Regardless, I hope that my relationship with Expat does not devolve into the sort of bickering that's occurring with these other three ppl... I believe that he's better than that, and that he's posting in good faith, so I doubt it'll be a problem.
EDIT: Scarlett, you are INFp, yes? To be honest: Implied et al, INFp is a much better guess for me than ESFj... As Expat once said--and I agree--"NF" is pretty clear.
EDIT 2: Winterpark, there are a few ppl who seem to have grudges, it's true.
EDIT 3: glam is right... this is really stupid... can we please stop? please?
Yes, I think at least Expat's being civil about this whole ordeal. I respect him for that. The other two, imo, have gone down a bad road and it just seems to me that they are constantly attacking you now no matter WHAT kind of post you make... it's really weird.
And nope, I'm an EIE, but a stray few still say I'm an IEI-Fe. I've thought about it for ages, and EIE is where I am going to stay. It fits overall, much better than IEI.
I think it's pretty obvious that niffweed and implied have some sort of grudge against JuJu, as to Expat, i'm personally really not sure. I certainly hope not, his knowledge of socionics and other subjects is quite good and it would be a shame to see that lost..clouded in a cauldron of apparently pointless harassing. (This isn't a personal attack on you Expat fwiw, I simply am looking at what i've seen, and am hoping that this isn't the case with you.)
Nice! +1
EII 4w5
so/sx (?)
is "insulting you" another way to say questioning your typing?
thanks, i'll remember this and cherish it forever.Thus, in this case, not apologizing has nothing to do with weak Fi (your attribution)--but strong Fi, that doesn't give much of a damn about you two b/c you seem to suck.
"you're not ____" happens to many types, many outside of delta. i don't see why you fail to understand this. i don't know whose type hasn't gone under scrutiny. i still haven't entirely thrown out IEE as your type but if you are one, you're horribly childish and annoying. yet i honestly don't know how you could come off as some other type when all i (and apparently other forum members as well) have seen is sarcastic barbs & theatrical drama from you. sorry if this offends you, but it's generally not very associated with delta. perhaps this goes against every possible idea you may have of delta, and i'm sure you'll never change your mind on your self-type or even bother to consider that you might be wrong.
can i also add: wtf is EVER wrong with flipflopping on someone's type or changing your typing/someone else's typing based on new information or new understanding of socionics/functions/etc? personally i'd rather a doctor, for instance, go to the trouble of doing an extra test to actually find out what's wrong with me, and then tell me something different than what he'd initially told me based on that new information. i mean quite often there are instances where things are so clear cut that you don't have to search for ages to find someone's type, but then quite often it's very useful to listen to incoming information or wait for new information so you can change your mind/alter your opinions.
think this is very possible.
Last edited by implied; 08-28-2008 at 06:44 AM.
6w5 sx
model Φ: -+0
sloan - rcuei
I don't think anyone has a grudge against JuJu, though Niffweed at least seems thoroughly annoyed by him at this point. JuJu, I just think they have an opinion about your type, and you not liking their opinion isn't going to change it. In fact, when you strongly react to their opinion, it seems to solidify it. But it doesn't look like a grudge to me.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
Funny. I seem to be the only case of the reverse. In that I thought I was beta and now people are telling me I am delta.
Regarding this thread, here is my account of delta. Under the assumption that me and my friend are delta. Perhaps it will shed some light on delta behavior.
Regarding my friend, he's a narcissist. I have him pegged as IEE. He is also experience seeking, I'm guessing he is also an E7. He is also a bigot. But not in the true sense of the word. But in that Fi types can appear prejudiced way. He, at least he tells me, can pick up on whether a person is good or bad almost instantly. It's an ability of his. But he also has a tendency to overextend this to certain group of people. Nationalities of people. He has a problem with the jews for example. He doesn't like them. He is cautions and wary of people who are jewish. I, on the other hand, find this stupid. You can't judge a person before you met them. But like I said, he has this ability to pick up on the inherent quality of people, and apparently of entire classifications, groups. However I should also note that, even though his does this, treats people different based on how he perceives them or their class, he is guided by this mechanism for people distinction primarily. That is, even through he may be wary in the beginning once he asses the person he acts based on this assessment. That is, in the end classifications, divisions mean nothing to him. Quality of character is his final guidance. But he can get carried away by these assessments of his.
He isn't really that keen on deliberation and rationalization. That is, he prefers to act on impulse, fly by the seat of his pants. And he likes it that way. That way he can stir up things more. Activate his environment.
He loves to challenge people, their established notions, how they view things. He especially likes to entice people. For example we will walk next to a group of people whose lifestyle he disapproves and he will openly and loudly, so that they can hear him, criticize them. Like insult them. Our SEI friend tells him he will get a beating that way, but IMO all he seeks to do is challenge the validity of the choices that group of people made. That is, debate them. However, I agree with my SEI friend, one of these days he will get his ass kicked. But he does acknowledge this and he readily accepts the consequences of his actions, that is, he'll fight if necessary, he stands behind what he says. Oh, I forgot the mention that this rowdy behavior of his is when he is drunk. But I don't see much relevance there as when he is drunk he gets the audacity to do things we would have wanted to do when he wasn't drunk. In any case, he readily engages people in discussions on the validity of their choices in life and their character. Although somebody else might say judges and insults people on a personal basis.
Also, a personal impression, I get the feeling that his true area of strength is character assessment. Determining the virtues, flaws of people. I get the impression that he really has the ability to understand people, comprehend an individual. Although being superficially, initially narcissistic and bigoted can get in the way of that. He can definitely lack objectivity like that.
As for myself, I have written extensively about myself elsewhere. A couple of posts: here, here, here.
Regarding our relations, things are ok when we are one on one. But when he gets drunk and starts acting like this he tends to piss me off. However since I never directly approach these issues I just let it stew. But I don't concern myself or worry about it, how it will affect our friendship, this pent up, slowly boiling hostility, I let it follow its natural course. Personally I don't see the need to address it now. That is, the matter will be addressed when the need for it arises, when it boils over.
I tend to only address things when the need for it arises. I also have an incredibly ability to ignore / set things aside like this. That is, something along the lines of a joke where a man with a knife in his back went to see the doctor only to be turned down because their working hours were over. And got stabbed in the eye and referred to an optician who has longer working hours. But that part of the joke is irrelevant.
And this ability to completely set aside aspects of reality, not deal with them, extends to mental pursuits as well. I can hold views that are directly contradictory to each other with no problem. For example, in socionics I don't think any of the IME-s are valid. I don't think there is such a thing as Te, Fe, Ni, Se and the rest. Or to be more accurate, I think the form, manifestation of the IME-s is different from what is commonly accepted. But this doesn't bother me because I am able to build models independent of each other and completely do not care if they are contradictory. That is, I don't care for consistency, I freely examine various concepts independently of each other, on their own grounds.
And this is an integral aspect of my relation to my IEE friend. Because he has a lot of different novel ideas, but they are complete mess in terms of internal consistency. And I completely don't care. And even prefer it. Because discussions with him are like uncovering nuggets of gold. I'm like a prospector looking for nuggets of gold, ideas that can be taken, shaped, process and tuned into something valid. And I don't mind sifting through lot of rubbish along the way. And personally I don't even perceive it as that. I see it almost as an adventure. Because he exposes me to novelty. I think things I haven't before, reach new insights, conclusions about things. With his messed up perspective he exposes me to a completely new, unprocessed, perspective. And there is nothing I love more then exploring, processing a new perspective. Searching it for validity, seeing if I can make it work/function properly.
I love when we get together like this and start debating, discussing things. Initially he seems like he is simply guided by personal sentiments, he would like for these things to be relevant, he wants them to be valid, or simply is not aware how what he is saying is flawed some way. Normally it is based on his assessments of people I mentioned earlier. And his poor attempts to generalize them, create universal rules from them.
It's really funny, he is really good at getting people, he often provides me with insights that never crossed my mind, I never considered about somebody, and yet is so poor at making universal conclusions about things. At least in my eyes. And his fathers. I have his father pegged as Ti dominant, as LII. His father is able to swiftly (and with style) rip into my friends ideas. He shoots them down on a conceptual level, completely inhibits my friend. Not that I have seen this done extensively, but the rare occasion I have witnessed his interaction with his father his father completely shoots him down in his ideas. How he should live his life, what course of action to take and so on.
In essence I think my friend needs somebody who will not shoot him down, inhibit him like that, but somebody who will not care about the mess that he works with, but will go and sift through the mess searching for the relevancies, for the nuggets of gold. He needs somebody who would be willing to make it work, to find a way for it to work.
And I think this is how we complement each other nicely. I am always wiling to consider things, to be honest it is almost like a need for me, and his is always considering things, proposing things.
Also, our normal interaction is largely based around this. Like our jokes, everyday conversations and so on. For example with our joking we joke primarily by making references, conclusions. Lot's of internal type of jokes where one refers to something in an elaborate manner. Things that seem twisted and convoluted and if you are not in on it you will have a hard time figuring it out. Also you have to figure the joke out. There is no direct impact type of jokes, they are subtle, the jokes have layers, multiple ways of interpreting them.
We also often role play but this serves primarily as a vehicle for criticism. Of things we do not approve of. Things I mentioned as a flaw in my friend, the judgment of people who do not share his views, but now realize that I do it myself. For example we may for laughs make references like local hooligans, ridiculing them through it. In general ridiculing such behavior, people who exercise such behavior, the character of those people. This primarily spawns a discussion, debate on the validity of their views, on how they are different, on what motivates them to do what they do and so on. Sometimes it's genuine curiosity, but more often it's just judgment and criticism. I think it depends on our state of mind as well, how good we feel. Like this could be a way to release some pet up hostility brought on by something else in our lives, problems somewhere else are expressed as criticism, judgment here.
Also, regarding all of this there are no real deltas things, have any of you actually explored the alternative options for your types? To be honest it sound to me that all you people are doing is bitching how others have suggested heresy and done absolutely nothing to provide anything concrete regarding your type assessment. Not examined evidence, alternatives, tried to determine the validity of various options, claims. I mean, the first thing I did when my type was in question is get to the bottom of things. Determine what actually is a valid claim and what isn't. I mean, if you do that then there will be no problems you people are now claiming, that others are attacking you, pressuring you into something that is obviously wrong. Once you can objectively prove your case you can show, objectively, what is obviously wrong and what isn't. There would be no uncertainty that currently exists. And to be honest the uncertainty you people chose to deal things with I find utterly incomprehensible. It is as if you like/prefer to sit there and merely complain, making emotional arguments instead of getting of your asses and actually doing something to resolve the issues you complain so boastfully about.
And also, what is so wrong with questioning ones type? I love it when people question my type. It gives me a chance to play around with concepts. And I love getting to the bottom of things as well. I find asserting validity, finding out what is right or isn't, what works or not, completely rejuvenating. It brightens my day. For you one would get the impression that questioning one's type is equivalent to a personal attack and actually considering alternatives to heresy.
i agree with everything you've said here. my sentiments...
mine as well. (:
6w5 sx
model Φ: -+0
sloan - rcuei
wtf is this? When have I made these claims? Who are these "you people"? What makes you think i'm bothered? I assume you include me because it's directed at "you people" presumably meaning those who have posted here?
The problem appears to be when you've got idiots that don't know what they are talking about, and use type questioning as a vehicle to launch personal attacks, some more guarded than others. At any point that my type has been questioned (not that I give a shit what most people here think it is) I have never been given any reasons that actually mean anything. Vague things that i've seen for others is "you play casino so you can't be SLI" or "you smiled a lot there, that means you're not [insert delta type]" Although other people may have issues I don't know with, if they are infact bothered. Personally I find it boring because no one here can or has provided me with a reasonable or objective reason for any other type. Now if I wanted my type questioned I would start a type thread and talk about myself, instead of having some armchair lunatic assuming that they can magically type me because, for other reasons i've seen "you are like my dad" or "not like my dad". Where you see it working, how do you see it working, if there are so many people changing their type on the forum? It's not working. But like I say I don't really care too much anyway, my type exists outwith the forum, not in it.And also, what is so wrong with questioning ones type? I love it when people question my type. It gives me a chance to play around with concepts. And I love getting to the bottom of things as well. I find asserting validity, finding out what is right or isn't, what works or not, completely rejuvenating. It brightens my day. For you one would get the impression that questioning one's type is equivalent to a personal attack and actually considering alternatives to heresy.
Have you decided on your type yet?
i also agree with your post a few posts back... i personally like debating things about ourselves, internally, and being open to possibilities within ourselves without taking any of it personally. as i never saw you questioning juju's type as personal...
the way i see it is if and when we actually give a shit about someone we go the extra mile to question and look deeper to HELP them. i do this a lot and unfortunately some take it personal when it actually meant i CARED enough to want to play with the possibilities that might not have been thought of. if i didn't care enough about the person, i wouldn't bother.
Help can be useful, but as a for instance, I note that unefile made a recent post in her thread asking for people to cut back on the sexual innuendo, not all help is good help. Basically i'd find that reason enough not to discuss my identity if it turns into a circus act.
i like joking and fun but not the circus atmosphere either...i like deep discussions and that works better irl or one on one, for me. this forum has too many "clowns" that spoil the discussion or don't respect it. fun and playing is one thing, being disruptive to what people are wanting from the information/discussion is another.
i came here to learn and discuss and such and having fun and joking is one way to help in the learning process. but, this forum is having the opposite affect on my learning curve with this stuff. i'm very intelligent and pick things up pretty quickly. this forum and the way things go back and forth is counterproductive to my learning curve.... it sucks, sis and i agree on this.
yeah, i don't entirely understand what is wrong with thinking something through and throwing around possibilities. none of it is set in stone (i guess i also stick to the idea that the worst decision is one which can't be changed or reversed.) again, i think it would probably be a bigger crime to just stick to the original typing because you don't want to do the brainwork/legwork of perhaps redefining your own view of what the types are. i find that a lot of what nicky has said about deltas has made me reconsider this a bit, although i'd probably die saying that juju's behaviour hasn't been very delta so far heh.
6w5 sx
model Φ: -+0
sloan - rcuei
This thread is boring as fuck.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
yeah i agree again.
the way i see it is if someone says they are XXXx type and NEVER questions it, that is so closeminded to the possibilities within themselves as well as the fact that because their own typing may be wrong, the rest of their typing others would be wrong too! (i'm talking in general here, not anyone specifically)
Yeah
smooth jazzzzzzzz
http://www.kyot.com/main.html
i think that could be the case. then i think there is the possibility of being mistyped but also being reasonably proficient at typing others, though it seems less likely. at any rate i think that being extremely closed off to the idea you could be some other type probably isn't very delta either, or at least not within the normal definitions of Ne (though i think that taking things with a grain of salt or skepticism is not outside of being Te-creative.) nothing wrong with confidence in one's own logic, just not when it gets in the way of exploring anything else and winds up shooting you in the foot. (yeah, i'll disclaimer as well and state that i wasn't intending on referring to any particular person here or attempting to hurt someone's feelings lol.)yeah i agree again.
the way i see it is if someone says they are XXXx type and NEVER questions it, that is so closeminded to the possibilities within themselves as well as the fact that because their own typing may be wrong, the rest of their typing others would be wrong too! (i'm talking in general here, not anyone specifically)
6w5 sx
model Φ: -+0
sloan - rcuei
Yes. No good claims were thrown around, I considered the other types. They don't work for me, yet the types still used to be suggested. Thankfully not so much anymore.
You risk a neverending merry-go-round of a type-changing circus.And also, what is so wrong with questioning ones type?
I don'tI love it when people question my type.
It's not a personal attack. It makes you feel like you're not being listened to.For you one would get the impression that questioning one's type is equivalent to a personal attack and actually considering alternatives to heresy.
"Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."
- Voltaire
LOL!
Topaz
The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness.
i think this guy sounds probably SEE > IEE.
do you ever not agree?
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
you must've missed a few posts, lol
As snegledmaca's suggestion about exploring other types... Yes--I've explored other types... IEE is my Socionics type... IEI is the other one to which I gave serious thought on first coming to Socionics, doch es geht nicht. EIE too for awhile... Now that I know about the functions, SEE makes more sense than any other Socionics type aside from IEE... No Alpha type makes sense.
As to providing evidence? (Am I in court?) What do you want to know..? Frankly, you're the first person to ever ask me this.
Your post implies that I should've done this before, i.e. started a post called something like "Here are my reasons for my self-typing as IEE."
What's the point of that when I already know my type..? To prove it to ppl like Implied and Niffweed? Do you think they would listen? lol
Now, I can understand why someone like dbmmama would do this, as she does not yet know her type; she is fairly new to Socionics, etc. She's searching for alternatives... But for me, this would be an perfunctory exercise for the sake of a couple ppl who haven't been particularly respectful, so why bother? I have other things to do.
Last edited by JuJu; 08-28-2008 at 05:12 PM.
Or maybe you've misinterpreted them. Haha!
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
it's tough to misinterpret something like "Harvard doesn't seem to have helped JuJu much."
That's still a subjective "no".
I don't think things were intended the way you made them develop. Most of what was said to you was... well, you asked for it.tough to misinterpret something like "Harvard doesn't seem to have helped JuJu much."
Last edited by Park; 08-28-2008 at 05:16 PM.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
"the way [I] made them develop," lol... ok guy.
please, enough. Please.
Last edited by JuJu; 08-28-2008 at 05:20 PM.
Enough of what? Is there something you got a problem with?
It is subjective in the sense that it reveals my subjective opinion I guess.
Oh really? Well you know everything, don't you?
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
let it die dude
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