Questions for EIEs-ENFjs about leading Fe function

[hellothere]

there's probably stuff in it that all NFs identify with, not just EIEs

[Gilly]

aka just wants me to be an E7

[aka-kitsune]

aka just wants me to be an E7

It's not that I *want* you to be anything. Just that you seem to be 7w6, based on my experience and understanding of enneagram.

Of course, your vacillation with regard to type has made me question my instincts. I'm now open to the idea that you're 6w7. 6s tend to go through enneagram/personality types like Kleenex. You're a Gilly-go-round.

And I'm also saying that ALL of what you wrote encompasses my observations of a IEE 7w8 I am acquainted with. He could have expressed EXACTLY the same criteria verbatim. I also tend to find most of the experiences and viewpoints you express here to be very first-and-foremost.

Just MO. I've never said I'm a socionics authority.

[Gilly]

You're a Gilly-go-round.

[Ezra]

1. I'm not comfortable with expressing how I feel about someone if I feel like I'm being emotionally manipulated into it. If someone says: 'I really like you'; 'I love you'; 'You're one of my closest friends' and I can't reciprocate the sentiment, I will usually just smile and say something neutral but complimentary, or make a wisecrack in response. My 'lukewarm' responses have often resulted in problems maintaining female friends as I was growing up, because they felt I was holding them at an emotional arms-length.

This sounds like weak ethics. In fact, on top of that, it sounds like devalued Fe.

2. Its common practice amongst the people I know now to kiss each other in greeting. This isn't a practice that I was familiar with until I started university and I at first I found it very affected. I don't mind it now, but I often won't initiate a greeting kiss until something internal changes and I feel there is a relationship between us. This has, on occassion, led to situations where people position themselves near me for a kiss, and instead I simply open conversation, leaving them slightly lost. However, if they initiate, I will respond warmly, always.

This sounds like introversion. An awareness that you prefer the other to initiate, and that you feel more comfortable if they do.

3. One of my closest friends went to Europe for the summer. We arranged to go to the Art Gallery when she got back. Upon seeing me, she opened her arms wide and tried to engulf me in a happy hug. I didn't feel like it, so I side-stepped her, slipped my arm through hers and said: 'It's too warm to hug', which made her laugh, at least.

Yep, this confirms what I think about your poor Fe, and almost scared reaction to it; like you don't know how to deal with it.

4. My default mode is to be civil, welcoming and conciliatory. However, on occasion, if I think it's 'appropriate', I will make an 'inappropriate' comment that's rude or snappy or sharp, just to shift the gears of the discussion. I teach casually and my method often shocks people, because it usually involves teasing or mocking the students, writing sarcastic comments on their papers, interspersed with running commentary on what I think as I'm reading their writing. A lot of other teachers/tutors are just warm and accepting - but I think students are so placid about making mistakes that you need to grab their attention. I can be sharp and critical where I think it's warranted and then change back to warm when I think they've heard the message. I always thought the warm, diplomatic, 'everything you do is great' teachers were Fe-valuing - now I'm definitely reassessing.

Honestly, you want to know what I think, unefille? I think you should check out Delta ST; honestly. Your interactions on this forum have been pretty representative of the kind of behaviour that comes to mind when I think of Delta ST behaviour. And, if snegledmaca is an SLI as niffweed and I (and probably quite a few others) believe, then I think you too are either his mirror or his identical, because your style of writing reminds me a lot of his.

From my perspective (as a friend, not making assumptions on my type or my knowledge of functions), she becomes expressionless and closed off as a defensive mechanism, definitely not as a strategic move.

This was one of the things that made me think of poor Fe. For example, when a Fe PoLR encounters Fe, they don't know what to do with it. They send out the least amount of Fe signals possible, and so will often act awkwardly in social situations, as unefille described. Say the person with the giant hug; they were giving unefille some Fe, and she rejected it, because she had no idea what to do with it; she was uncomfortable with expressing that kind of emotion. And what you say about her having no expression as being a defence mechanism is certainly compatible with this idea.

You can pretty much feel her pulling back into herself, but that she's still rapidly processing what's going on. At that point, I feel she cares less about what the other person is thinking/feeling, and more about dealing with her own response. But this is also contingent upon the social context.

I think this could be representative of strong Te, probably valued.

Also, she doesn't respond much to excessive emotional displays. I've noticed that the more someone, particularly guys, pursue her, the more she gets turned off. By excessive emotional displays, I mean calling her frequently, emailing her regularly - sometimes using flimsy excuses to do so, wanting to meet up. I thin part of her annoyance was in the other party not defining what their relationship was, but trying to date her by 'stealth' if you will.

Probably means she's Se devaluing, which basically eliminates the prospect of ILI. SLI is becoming increasingly likely.

[Gilly]

*headdesk*

[unefille]

SLI is becoming increasingly likely.

Ok, so the type thread is probably going to be essential I think, because we've introduced more confusion into the mess of possible types.

[Gilly]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

[Ezra]

Ok, so the type thread is probably going to be essential I think, because we've introduced more confusion into the mess of possible types.

Honestly, I think Delta ST works from the information you and your friend, idolatrie, have given me. I don't think anyone is properly reading what you're saying if they are going "BETA" or "EIE" repetitively like a mindless dickhead. If the information is inaccurate, or skewered, then that is a different matter. But I'm taking your word for it, and interpreting it socionically. I think you're not an ethical type, and you're certainly not Fe ego. I don't think you value Se/Ni; in fact, I'm certain of it.

[Gilly]

I really don't see what is "Ne" or "Fi" (you misquoted, Nick) about my post...

[Gilly]

Honestly, I think Delta ST works from the information you and your friend, idolatrie, have given me. I don't think anyone is properly reading what you're saying if they are going "BETA" or "EIE" repetitively like a mindless dickhead. If the information is inaccurate, or skewered, then that is a different matter. But I'm taking your word for it, and interpreting it socionically. I think you're not an ethical type, and you're certainly not Fe ego. I don't think you value Se/Ni; in fact, I'm certain of it.

lol, you're wrong

[strrrng]

I really don't see what is "Ne" or "Fi" (you misquoted, Nick) about my post...

I don't think you're delta. It's just that some portions of that post could be construed as delta values, imo.

[Gilly]

And what would those portions be?

[hellothere]

Honestly, I think Delta ST works from the information you and your friend, idolatrie, have given me. I don't think anyone is properly reading what you're saying if they are going "BETA" or "EIE" repetitively like a mindless dickhead. If the information is inaccurate, or skewered, then that is a different matter. But I'm taking your word for it, and interpreting it socionically. I think you're not an ethical type, and you're certainly not Fe ego. I don't think you value Se/Ni; in fact, I'm certain of it.

I was going to reply to this seriously but then as I reread it I realised it might be a joke. I'm still not sure. This was hilarious though: "I don't think anyone is properly reading what you're saying if they are going "BETA" or "EIE" repetitively like a mindless dickhead." Anyway, what I was going to say, regardless of whether this is a joke or not, is that (I agree that) we should be aware of the danger of settling on one hypothesis and then interpreting what's been said to fit with it, rather than evaluating the hypotheses to ensure they fit with what's been said

[Kristiina]

I am glad that Scarlettlux has ended up being a clearly typed EIE. Also, it seems to me that unefille is also clearly EIE. cool.

Yes, this is me as well. I enjoy large groups I suppose for the occasional party or whatnot, but truly, I desire intimate relations with small groups. I think this is one of the lamest misconceptions about Fi vs Fe -- that Fi prefers closer-knit groups whilst Fe valuers prefer large, rowdy groups of people whom barely know each-other and merely interact superficially to "have fun." This is probably why some Fi-valuers (those who have not studied the functions truly extensively and without judgment bias) look down upon us Fe/Ti people with their upturned faces and snub us. Bah!

I agree with this. I like the occasional energetic (=rowdy) party, but mostly it's all about medium-sized groups of up to 7 people. Okay, well 7 people sounds like a lot, enough for a decent party, but I know all of these people well and definitely not just superficially. I think betas are even nicer than people of other quadras - we will accept new people to join in on the fun. The groups are rarely exclusive to life-time pals.

[Ezra]

I do know that I prefer other people to initiate physical contact/touch etc. I mean, this could be type indicative, or it could be that I just wasn't hugged a lot as a child. My family isn't big on hugging. I get hugged a lot more now, because I initiate with my parents. They're not very...touchy-feely people.

[...]

This is what I've always thought as well. For more clarity, the friend in case is SEE - one of the few people I am still convinced after everything that I've typed correctly and I've never enjoyed being hugged by her. Uh, this is going to sound a bit weird, but she sort of pushes you up against her really tightly and squeezes and I'm not very comfortable with that.

[...]

Well, to be fair (and I'm not arguing FOR EIE), I think that's a misrepresentation. Firstly, I remember that incident very clearly because it was a strange situation. For some reason, seeing her coming toward me, all this very pushy warmth, I suddenly didn't want to hug her. I didn't feel overwhelmed by her, I think, I simply didn't want to hug her. I also wasn't awkward in the way I dodged her, I knew my response would make her laugh, because I positioned myself very close and next to her, arm in arm.

Interesting. My EIE best friend is exactly the same. I'm always ready to show him the love, but he rejects any physical contact "unless in the arms of a woman I love". Even then, when his earlier girlfriends were quite forwardly physical with him, he was still a bit uncomfortable. And when you ask him directly "why?" he replies with "I just don't want to!", and he gets increasingly defensive the more you persevere.

I don't like being hounded by these particular guys, it's true, but in any case, I'm not sure it means anything, but the guys were (if they were typed correctly, and I still believe they were) LII, ILE and LIE. None of them were straight-forward about their 'pursuit', except for the LIE who finally got very drunk, declared his love, and cursed me when I turned him down and told him I had a boyfriend, which I wasn't very impressed by.

I bet if any of those guys were an SLE, they would've got you.

On a serious note, though, LII would've been a good bet.

It was definitely the 'pursuit by stealth' aspect that annoyed me, more than the constant hounding. Because they weren't willing to openly express their intentions, I wasn't able to open reject them, so I had to constantly field these phone-calls, emails, and meetings with civility and some warmth. I've never liked people who I see as 'spineless' and they were definitely moving toward that territory.

And this is exactly why the EIE needs the LSI more than the LII; the LII is likely to pursue the EIE in a far less direct approach which the ESE will appreciate, but which the EIE will find somewhat annoying.

6s tend to go through enneagram/personality types like Kleenex. You're a Gilly-go-round.

Yeah, there's a 6w7 on EIDB called Shinobi Shaw. He literally changes his type every time I post on the board (about once a week).

And I'm also saying that ALL of what you wrote encompasses my observations of a IEE 7w8 I am acquainted with.

I'd love to meet an IEE 7w8.

EIE seems valid for you. -leading makes sense to me.

I agree.

Sounds like a beta ST giving the beta NF direction, imo.

Agreed.

Yes (niffweed), this is correct.

Are you agreeing with her or saying that the bullshit she is denying about Betas is actually true?

I was going to reply to this seriously but then as I reread it I realised it might be a joke. I'm still not sure. This was hilarious though: "I don't think anyone is properly reading what you're saying if they are going "BETA" or "EIE" repetitively like a mindless dickhead." Anyway, what I was going to say, regardless of whether this is a joke or not, is that (I agree that) we should be aware of the danger of settling on one hypothesis and then interpreting what's been said to fit with it, rather than evaluating the hypotheses to ensure they fit with what's been said

I was being serious. And I agree.

I am glad that Scarlettlux has ended up being a clearly typed EIE. Also, it seems to me that unefille is also clearly EIE. cool.

Welcome to Beta, unefille.

Yes. Yes. YES. Another brick in the wall. Another soldier in the ranks of Beta. Another piece of the puzzle. The puzzle which I will complete. The puzzle which leads us toVICTORY.

I agree with this. I like the occasional energetic (=rowdy) party, but mostly it's all about medium-sized groups of up to 7 people. Okay, well 7 people sounds like a lot, enough for a decent party, but I know all of these people well and definitely not just superficially. I think betas are even nicer than people of other quadras - we will accept new people to join in on the fun. The groups are rarely exclusive to life-time pals.

YES. One thing I really don't like about Te/Fi types is their cliquishness; exclusiveness; "you can't sit with us" attitude. I could swear the Plastics in Mean Girls is headed by an SEE.

[unefille]

This sounds like introversion. An awareness that you prefer the other to initiate, and that you feel more comfortable if they do.

I do know that I prefer other people to initiate physical contact/touch etc. I mean, this could be type indicative, or it could be that I just wasn't hugged a lot as a child. My family isn't big on hugging. I get hugged a lot more now, because I initiate with my parents. They're not very...touchy-feely people.

Yep, this confirms what I think about your poor Fe, and almost scared reaction to it; like you don't know how to deal with it.

This is what I've always thought as well. For more clarity, the friend in case is SEE - one of the few people I am still convinced after everything that I've typed correctly and I've never enjoyed being hugged by her. Uh, this is going to sound a bit weird, but she sort of pushes you up against her really tightly and squeezes and I'm not very comfortable with that.

This was one of the things that made me think of poor Fe. For example, when a Fe PoLR encounters Fe, they don't know what to do with it. They send out the least amount of Fe signals possible, and so will often act awkwardly in social situations, as unefille described. Say the person with the giant hug; they were giving unefille some Fe, and she rejected it, because she had no idea what to do with it; she was uncomfortable with expressing that kind of emotion. And what you say about her having no expression as being a defence mechanism is certainly compatible with this idea.

Well, to be fair (and I'm not arguing FOR EIE), I think that's a misrepresentation. Firstly, I remember that incident very clearly because it was a strange situation. For some reason, seeing her coming toward me, all this very pushy warmth, I suddenly didn't want to hug her. I didn't feel overwhelmed by her, I think, I simply didn't want to hug her. I also wasn't awkward in the way I dodged her, I knew my response would make her laugh, because I positioned myself very close and next to her, arm in arm.

Also, whilst idolatrie described it as a defense mechanism, I wouldn't necessarily agree, I think its definitely strategic. I think she's coming at it from the position of an 8, who prefers to attack back when attacked. I'm not shutting down emotionally to protect myself. The specific incident I had in mind was when I had a run in with my employer. I am definitely still processing what is going and weighing what I think are the best options. I have gotten into fights before and expressed anger without any problem before as well. But there are definitely situations where I hold myself back from doing anything and I think I have remarkable self-control in this respect.

Probably means she's Se devaluing.

I don't like being hounded by these particular guys, it's true, but in any case, I'm not sure it means anything, but the guys were (if they were typed correctly, and I still believe they were) LII, ILE and LIE. None of them were straight-forward about their 'pursuit', except for the LIE who finally got very drunk, declared his love, and cursed me when I turned him down and told him I had a boyfriend, which I wasn't very impressed by.

It was definitely the 'pursuit by stealth' aspect that annoyed me, more than the constant hounding. Because they weren't willing to openly express their intentions, I wasn't able to open reject them, so I had to constantly field these phone-calls, emails, and meetings with civility and some warmth. I've never liked people who I see as 'spineless' and they were definitely moving toward that territory.