Where the Myth of "Fake Fe" Came From

[hoodrat]

My roomate is probably ESE and I'm probably SEE. Last night when he was drunk (he sometimes forgets the psychological distance we need to maintain to get along well when he's drunk, because when he's drunk he tries to get a little too chummy), we were watching a show and I was kinda tired and didn't feel like conversing with him much. He kept babbling on and on while he was drunk and I was just trying to relax and pay attention to the show and the subtitles to gain an understanding of the lessons to be drawn by the writer's experience.

He kept babbling on and on and it was really annoying, but I didn't want to hurt his feelings, so whenever he finished saying something or asked me something i'd just be like "yeah... i agree.... that's awesome" without really paying attention to what I was saying.

Anyway, he eventually caught me in my act by asking me to repeat some specific information about what he had said; busted. Then he started acting all sad, small, and quiet and said "i'll stop being a chatterbox and quiet down now"

of course I said "oh no no, it's cool, don't worry about it" but I was thinking "THANK GOD."

Thanks to socionics I know it's not either of our faults situations like this happen, but we're just different. I guess the way he sees things you can't possibly be enjoying yourself without having fun (and making sure others know you're having fun), and if you're not enjoying yourself, he feels bad.

I, on the other hand, like people to feel socially comforatable and enjoy being around me, but I can kind of tell if they feel this way or not regardless of their external actions...

Does this make sense?

[Ezra]

Fe isn't my base - I know that. How do you mean, I have an instinctive understanding? Could this have been influenced by my experience with martial arts, maybe? Are you sure IEI's aren't confident in it? If so, maybe I am some Se go.

Of course they aren't. No one is confident in their fifth function. They can delude themselves that they are (many actually do when it comes to their sixth function), but they'll always need their dual to even begin to show them where they're going wrong.

Right. This is why the Fe base people can be classified as "emotional khamelions."

"Chameleons", FTR.

There are Fe ego types out there (Jadae) who use such functions for manipulative ends.

Wow, Nick, you've really separated yourself from that group, haven't you?

That is very good, except it's still too much from a viewpoint as it gives the impression (to me at least) that Fi-valuers are somehow all the time "repressing" their intensive emotions. That is not the case.

Absolutely. Take a look at discojoe when he has a problem with an injustice. He goes all out with his feelings.

My roomate is probably ESE and I'm probably SEE. Last night when he was drunk (he sometimes forgets the psychological distance we need to maintain to get along well when he's drunk, because when he's drunk he tries to get a little too chummy), we were watching a show and I was kinda tired and didn't feel like conversing with him much. He kept babbling on and on while he was drunk and I was just trying to relax and pay attention to the show and the subtitles to gain an understanding of the lessons to be drawn by the writer's experience.

He kept babbling on and on and it was really annoying, but I didn't want to hurt his feelings, so whenever he finished saying something or asked me something i'd just be like "yeah... i agree.... that's awesome" without really paying attention to what I was saying.

Anyway, he eventually caught me in my act by asking me to repeat some specific information about what he had said; busted. Then he started acting all sad, small, and quiet and said "i'll stop being a chatterbox and quiet down now"

of course I said "oh no no, it's cool, don't worry about it" but I was thinking "THANK GOD."

Thanks to socionics I know it's not either of our faults situations like this happen, but we're just different. I guess the way he sees things you can't possibly be enjoying yourself without having fun (and making sure others know you're having fun), and if you're not enjoying yourself, he feels bad.

I, on the other hand, like people to feel socially comforatable and enjoy being around me, but I can kind of tell if they feel this way or not regardless of their external actions...

Does this make sense?

Are you sure you're not an ESE or something, hoodrat?

[strrrng]

Wow, Nick, you've really separated yourself from that group, haven't you?

No, not at all, but I'm glad you brought this up.

I don't speak with Jadae anymore because he's a pathetic, socially manipulative piece of shit who only befriends those who can benefit him.

I used to be "friends" with him, but...

Now that Allie and I posted a bunch of steve's retarded quotes, aw this is great....

Steve cried to Jadae about me and Allie and Ashton bullying him with Se tactics and being rude on the forum, so THEN Jadae - get this - instant messaged maria in order to obtain expat's email address so that Jadae could persuade expat to discipline allie and me.

How fuckin hilarious is that, honestly, on so many levels.

I'm still friends with Ashton; there was one incident, but everyone has it put behind them. Despite peoples' constant character attacks on him, he has been the most consistent imo with where he stands on people - completely unlike Jadae.

[Brentano]

Honour among thieves indeed.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[munenori2]

yes jxrtes, I agree, Steve didn't seem like a bad guy at all.

I haven't bothered to read many threads lately, but as much as this or that person might disagree with his socionics stuff, he seems like a genuinely nice guy.

[strrrng]

When the fuck did this thread turn into a steve pity party, lol? I brought up an incident which I thought was relevant that portrayed him in a negative context - big deal. It's not my fault he went behind my back (god forbid confronting me or allie to let us know where he stood) and tried to use jadae the snake to talk to the big boys and get us in trouble.

But boo hoo, he's such a nice guy. Give me a break, lol, you people are just playing into his game. People who typically avoid direct conflict, act amenable to people, etc. aren't just doing that for no reason - it's social positioning. If you can't see that, whatever.

[Steve]

No, not at all, but I'm glad you brought this up.

I don't speak with Jadae anymore because he's a pathetic, socially manipulative piece of shit who only befriends those who can benefit him.

I used to be "friends" with him, but...

Now that Allie and I posted a bunch of steve's retarded quotes, aw this is great....

Steve cried to Jadae about me and Allie and Ashton bullying him with Se tactics and being rude on the forum, so THEN Jadae - get this - instant messaged maria in order to obtain expat's email address so that Jadae could persuade expat to discipline allie and me.

How fuckin hilarious is that, honestly, on so many levels.

I'm still friends with Ashton; there was one incident, but everyone has it put behind them. Despite peoples' constant character attacks on him, he has been the most consistent imo with where he stands on people - completely unlike Jadae.

Looks like someone doesn't like me anymore. It's too bad we can't fight over it like big strong Se men and punch our computer monitors, although my computer is getting old, so maybe I could trash the screen anyway.

And to suddenly today, respond on socionix to a post I made on September 7th, 2007, with your typical "(sarcasm), lol" comments in an attempt to do I don't know what, is quite humorous imo. It strikingly resembles what you did on this forum, searching far and wide for quotes of mine back to August of 2006 to paste in a thread for a reason that still befuddles me. I'm not sure what you were trying to prove. Maybe you could explain that one.

http://forum.socionix.com/index.php?showtopic=792

So again, I don't know what your goals/motivations are. Perhaps you'd like to share them.

[strrrng]

Looks like someone doesn't like me anymore. It's too bad we can't fight over it like big strong Se men and punch our computer monitors, although my computer is getting old, so maybe I could trash the screen anyway.

This isn't about like or dislike; it's the fact that you've 1)acted like a pussy, 2)pulled underhanded tactics, 3)acted like you were oh-so-righteous. Fight it out like Se men? lol...you won't even engage in a direct confrontation on the internet, using the classic copout that it's pointless drama - which it wasn't; being called out on your bullshit and being harassed are two different things. But god forbid anyone call you out. Ashton tells you your assessment of allie as an sx 3 is bullshit and you opt not to respond cause big bad bully ashy is just using his Se to be mean. I call you out on your futile attempt to get me in trouble with expat in the chat and you again opt not to respond, because, oh nicki is just being a beta NF looking for conflict. Sorry, I just don't like pussies who can only do things behind your back. Stop rationalizing direct confrontation through functions. and have fun with ur comp lol.

And to suddenly today, respond on socionix to a post I made on September 7th, 2007, with your typical "(sarcasm), lol" comments in an attempt to do I don't know what, is quite humorous imo. It strikingly resembles what you did on this forum, searching far and wide for quotes of mine back to August of 2006 to paste in a thread for a reason that still befuddles me. I'm not sure what you were trying to prove. Maybe you could explain that one.

I responded to that post on socionix because I reread the threads and it was clear you were aggrandizing Si into something it isn't - talking about having an "abstract essence about your flow" -- honestly, WTF?? get over these deluded conceptions of your magical dual seeking function. I just felt like pointing that out in the thread. But again, you're ascribing motives to it so that you don't have to respond...oh the beta NF is using condescending lols...nope can't respond to that...it's not worth it. If you think my post was wrong, respond. otherwise, stop bitching. Oh, and the thing with Allie was just for fun. I had been reading old threads and she had pointed out some absurd posts you made...big deal.

http://forum.socionix.com/index.php?showtopic=792

So again, I don't know what your goals/motivations are. Perhaps you'd like to share them.

my motivations were to call you out on your bullshit delusions about Si. Anything else?

[strrrng]

I'm not an expert in these matters. But in my experience, it's usually people who play games themselves that think other people are also always doing the same. I think you should consider the possibility that you might have genuinely and unnecessarily offended him.

If I may be excused in saying so.

That's actually a good assessment. Although I believe that everyone plays games; everyone acts towards their benefit in social situations. Have you read the 48 laws of power? The dude hits it in the first pages -- how the most generous/friendly/self-effacing/etc individuals are some of the most adept power players.

But I must just be projecting cause I play games

[strrrng]

Perhaps, then, the best and simplest assessment is that you and Steve play different games

Correct. And his are not only repulsive to me, but also transparent. I called him out on what he was doing in that verbal combat thread, but apparently I was expending unnecessary energy. Bullshit. If you have a problem with someone, tell them like a man; don't complain and cry when you don't get validation, then proceed to go behind the scenes and pull strings. Pusssyyyy

[Steve]

Ashton tells you your assessment of allie as an sx 3 is bullshit and you opt not to respond cause big bad bully ashy is just using his Se to be mean.

Last monday night/tues morning or so I believe it was, I had a conversation with both Allie and Ashton about what I thought Allie's enneagram/socionics type was, which was initiated by them. I presented to both of them reasons for why I thought Allie was what she was, and they gave me some reasons as to why they thought she was something different, and I wasn't convinced, and neither were they. At that point, it didn't seem like either of us were going to get any further discussing it at the time, so I wasn't going to argue it anymore - there was no need (I could live with the supposed delusion that I had of Allie's type). Both Allie and Ashton should feel secure enough in their typings that they don't need my approval or try to convince me that their typings are correct. I'm pretty sure you believe in the same philosophy of someone either being open to an idea or not? I'm pretty sure in a recent post of yours that you said that you wish not to impose your typings on people - if they choose not to accept your opinion that's their choice.

Here's how I left it with Allie:

Session Start: Tue Aug 19 01:06:51 2008
[01:28] Allie: so if you're right about that... then it would have to be an unconscious fixation or w/e
[01:28] Steve: ok
[01:28] Steve: ill see if i notice anything in the future in chats
[01:28] Steve: that i'll point out
[01:30] Allie: behavior? you're going to watch my behavior in a public chatroom to determine something as deep as an enneagram type?
[01:32] Steve: idk it's all i can say at this point
[01:32] Steve: bbiaf
[01:32] Allie: k later

Then, 30 seconds later, Ashton IMs me wishing to discuss Allie's socionics type further. My last line of conversation with him had ended ten minutes earlier.

[01:32] Ashton: Oh yeah
[01:32] *** Auto-response sent to Ashton: I am currently away from the computer.
[01:32] Ashton: I think Allie might be Se-ISFj.
[01:36] *** You have been disconnected. Tue Aug 19 01:36:15 2008.

Maybe Ashton wasn't around when I explained to Allie in the chat or on IM why I didn't think she was Se ISFj. I guess he doesn't talk with Allie that often so he's out of the loop sometimes. If he still wishes to know why I think she's not Se ISFj, he can know that my typing is based from numerous subjective impressions I've had of her and how I see the impressions fitting in with the theory, similar to the kind of subjective impressions he states he uses to type people. But of course with subjective impressions, there will sometimes be difference of opinion, which of course cannot be resolved by logical debate, since the opinions are formed by subjective impressions. So, until I have a leap of insight, I'm still in Steve perceptions, and not in Ashton/Allie perceptions, so this is a point in the road where one of my type perceptions differs from theirs, and it'll have to be left at that for now.

Then, in the following days on stickam, Ashton and Allie, and even yourself chose to initiate me in debate further on her type, after I had already provided my reasoning, and recognized we had a difference in perceptions, which couldn't be reasonably resolved by "logical debate". Again, you don't need my validation to know that a type is correct. If you believe Allie is Se ISFj, fine, it's your call, and that's all that should matter. In addition, I requested that if you needed to discuss her type further, that you do it one on one on AIM with me, where the discussion had originally started, since you and I knew each other well and could understand each other's subjective impressions, as we had done for hundreds of times on the phone in the past, and as we've supported each other on this very forum in the past. I did not wish to engage in debate in a pubic chatroom where there were people who did not have the same context on each of our own subjective perceptions as we did, and the conversation could easily become misleading and confusing. You did not respect that request and chose to interrogate me uninitiated on stickam in a manner that quite resembles the style of posting you used in the "Types in Verbal Combat Thread". (You had recently done the same thing when debating smccosker's type with me - after you and I had "agreed to disagree" on smccosker's type on AIM (me believing he was Te ISTp and you believing he's ESTp, you, in the chat, after I had entered the room and there was silence, type "Sean is Beta") When I expressed displeasure in you taking both the Sean type debate and the Allie type debate publicly and expressed my feeling of being disrespected and disregarded, you responded by calling me a pussy, spineless, Se-averse, "typical 6-so approval-seeking bullshit" etc.

In addition, with the Sean-debate specifically, when I expressed displeasure at you bringing up Sean's type debate in the public, provoking fashion, you said that I was assuming motives by claiming that you were trying to start drama. Then later in the conversation you changed your position, stating (essentially - I have the exact words in an log somewhere) "Even if I was trying to start conflict, wouldn't that be doing good for you to develop your tolerance?" It was at this point that I determined you were not respecting my wishes (particularly as a friend) and had ulterior motives, and determined that you were not listening and respecting the person who you are conversing with, instead choosing to berate them and call them selfish, saying "everyone's not gonna walk on eggshells to meet your needs". I therefore determined that you were not interested in engaging in equal-respect debates, and since I don't wish to engage in disrespectful "debates", I did not speak with you further on that matter, or any other matter with which you came across with a virulent tone and belligerent intentions.

[Steve]

honestly, WTF?? get over these deluded conceptions of your magical dual seeking function.

Sorry, I couldn't help but find this funny.

[strrrng]

1)Allie clearly told me that you did not provide reasoning for her type. Instead, you pasted some random sx 3 description and said it matched with "vibes" you got of her (surprisingly, jadae didn't think she was 7 either). That's hardly agreeing to disagree based on rational discussion.

2)Ashton said something about it in the chat, and you jumped to conclusions about his motives, which I think was bullshit and due to the fact that you didn't want your lack of reasoning exposed.

I did not wish to engage in debate in a pubic chatroom where there were people who did not have the same context on each of our own subjective perceptions as we did, and the conversation could easily become misleading and confusing.

Oh, boo hoo, the "context" isn't right; therefore we can't debate at all. Bullshit, reason knows no context. You would have gladly debated it publicly if you had anything more than vibes to explain your position. Debating it one on one in aim is just safe, so stop faking.

You did not respect that request and chose to interrogate me uninitiated on stickam in a manner that quite resembles the style of posting you used in the "Types in Verbal Combat Thread". (You had recently done the same thing when debating smccosker's type with me - after you and I had "agreed to disagree" on smccosker's type on AIM (me believing he was Te ISTp and you believing he's ESTp, you, in the chat, after I had entered the room and there was silence, type "Sean is Beta") When I expressed displeasure in you taking it publicly and expressed my feeling of being disrespected and disregarded, you responded by calling me a pussy, spineless, Se-averse, "typical 6-so approval-seeking bullshit" etc.

Who cares? If you can't take the pressure, get the fuck out lol. I'm not gonna cater to your desires and create some nice little alpha environment for a debate. If I want to call you out on a shitty argument, I'm gonna do it. If you don't want it brought to public attention, don't throw it out there. This isn't about respect or any moral shit; get off your high horse.

In addition, with the Sean-debate specifically, when I expressed displeasure at you bringing up Sean's type debate in the public, provoking fashion, you said that I was assuming motives by claiming that you were trying to start drama. Then later in the conversation you changed your position, stating (essentially - I have the exact words in an log somewhere) "Even if I was trying to start conflict, wouldn't that be doing good for you to develop your tolerance?"

You were assuming motives. And the reason I said that wasn't to change my position; I was alluding to the fact that you respond to any form of conflict like it's poison. I wanted you to stop complaining that the atmosphere/tone/etc was wrong and just fucking deal with it.

equal-respect debates

aka a nice, warm room with a group of people drinking tea and patting each other on the back, saying "good job, man" whenever someone makes a point.

GIVE ME A BREAK. This is reality, and if you can't take the pressure, don't bother engaging in anything.

[Hitta]

Correct. And his are not only repulsive to me, but also transparent. I called him out on what he was doing in that verbal combat thread, but apparently I was expending unnecessary energy. Bullshit. If you have a problem with someone, tell them like a man; don't complain and cry when you don't get validation, then proceed to go behind the scenes and pull strings. Pusssyyyy

Yea 8s a good match for you, and heres why: You are always looking for a way to win. Its like you don't even care about the ideologies or the philosophies behind them, you just want to come out on top. You trick people, you lie, you cheat,and you like to dig up shit from 3 centuries in the past. Its as if you are always looking for the edge in someone in an argument; so you don't back up your argument with logic, you set out to make the other person look stupid without even saying anything that sounds remotely correct about your argument. You keep throwing this shit around about how you are a 4 and everyone else is a 6, and every time someone actually finds something interesting, or actually likes something, you say that they are "attached". ATTACHED ATTACHED ATTACHED, fuck that shit. Everyone is attached, everyone has fucking philosophies that they live by. Its fucking unavoidable. You are attached to the concept of you being a 4. Can we call you a counter phobic 6? Um, is your rebelliousness to agree with people when they don't think they are a 6 mean that you are counter phobic? You've told dozens of people that they can't be the type that they think they are. Do you know these people better than they do? Are you an Enneagram god? To be honest, I don't think you know shit.

[Hitta]

Sorry, I couldn't help but find this funny.

Ashtons whole little group of people does nothing but stereotypes people and judges them based on Pseudo philosophical arguments that make absolutely zero sense. If Ashton think that you are a certain type, he will treat you a certain way. Even the people that he likes that refer to themselves as being in his opposite quadra, he tries to change their opinion on their type to suit his own little retarded ideological concepts.

[strrrng]

Yea 8s a good match for you, and heres why: You are always looking for a way to win. Its like you don't even care about the ideologies or the philosophies behind them, you just want to come out on top. You trick people, you lie, you cheat,and you like to dig up shit from 3 centuries in the past. Its as if you are always looking for the edge in someone in an argument; so you don't back up your argument with logic, you set out to make the other person look stupid without even saying anything that sounds remotely correct about your argument.

I'm genuinely curious as to how you think this makes me an 8. Just because I'm competitive and confrontational?

You keep throwing this shit around about how you are a 4 and everyone else is a 6, and every time someone actually finds something interesting, or actually likes something, you say that they are "attached". ATTACHED ATTACHED ATTACHED, fuck that shit. Everyone is attached, everyone has fucking philosophies that they live by. Its fucking unavoidable. You are attached to the concept of you being a 4. Can we call you a counter phobic 6? Um, is your rebelliousness to agree with people when they don't think they are a 6 mean that you are counter phobic? You've told dozens of people that they can't be the type that they think they are. Do you know these people better than they do? Are you an Enneagram god? To be honest, I don't think you know shit.

I don't think everyone else is a 6, you twat. There are many people I don't think are 6's. Take your petty complaints somewhere else; I could care less.

[strrrng]

Sorry, I couldn't help but find this funny.

Why? Because you realized how silly you look prancing around in the "Si flow of your essence"? If you're trying to allude to some attitude you think I have towards Se, try again. I actually understand Se - it's strengths and weakness. You just idealize the fuck out of Si and come up with embellished descriptions to make it seem more abstract/special than it is.

Ashtons whole little group of people does nothing but stereotypes people and judges them based on Pseudo philosophical arguments that make absolutely zero sense. If Ashton think that you are a certain type, he will treat you a certain way. Even the people that he likes that refer to themselves as being in his opposite quadra, he tries to change their opinion on their type to suit his own little retarded ideological concepts.

You're one to talk about being pseudo-philosophical, buddy.

[Steve]

1)Allie clearly told me that you did not provide reasoning for her type. Instead, you pasted some random sx 3 description and said it matched with "vibes" you got of her (surprisingly, jadae didn't think she was 7 either). That's hardly agreeing to disagree based on rational discussion.

I already told you. My "reasoning" were my subjective impressions, which I was not asking anyone to blindly follow. They asked my opinion and I gave it. I shouldn't have to repeat this again.

2)Ashton said something about it in the chat, and you jumped to conclusions about his motives, which I think was bullshit and due to the fact that you didn't want your lack of reasoning exposed.

I already said I had no concrete reasoning - it was based in subjective impression, which obviously isn't concretely debatable, but as I said above, I was not forcing it on anyone, nor did I need to debate anyone with it, so whatever "lack of reasoning" there was was already exposed.

Oh, boo hoo, the "context" isn't right; therefore we can't debate at all. Bullshit, reason knows no context. You would have gladly debated it publicly if you had anything more than vibes to explain your position. Debating it one on one in aim is just safe, so stop faking.

Of course, I would have debated it publicly if I had more than vibes to explain my position because obviously other people likely wont be seeing through Steve subjective impressions. But since I didn't have any more than vibes, I of course preferred not to debate it publicly, as it would go nowhere.

Who cares? If you can't take the pressure, get the fuck out lol. I'm not gonna cater to your desires and create some nice little alpha environment for a debate. If I want to call you out on a shitty argument, I'm gonna do it. If you don't want it brought to public attention, don't throw it out there. This isn't about respect or any moral shit; get off your high horse.

There's no high horse. It all comes down to the points made above. There is no point in debating publicly over something that's based primarily off of subjective impressions. As you correctly mentioned above, if I had more than subjective vibes to go by, I would have gladly debated it publicly. It came as a surprise though, that you, knowing that all I had was subjective impressions, attempted to engage in debate with me. I'm not sure why, because certainly, you must have realized (from the point you made above) that debating over subjective impressions is pointless, so the fact that you chose to push forward with the debate led me to believe that you had other intentions - specifically, trying to humiliate/discredit me.

You were assuming motives. And the reason I said that wasn't to change my position; I was alluding to the fact that you respond to any form of conflict like it's poison. I wanted you to stop complaining that the atmosphere/tone/etc was wrong and just fucking deal with it.

Conflict for the sake of conflict is just stupid imo, and I think most would agree. On the other hand I think any person would engage in conflict if it was necessary.

aka a nice, warm room with a group of people drinking tea and patting each other on the back, saying "good job, man" whenever someone makes a point.

GIVE ME A BREAK. This is reality, and if you can't take the pressure, don't bother engaging in anything.

I simply prefer debating environments where people are consistent in their reasoning, do not attempt at ad-hominem, and where people listen to the other people. This is how I define debate: sound reasoning, listening, and personal respect.

The absence of these things results in a Jerry Springer-type drama fest where the goal is to make the other person's character look like shit, while the actual topic being debated gets lost and no greater understanding of the topic is achieved for the parties involved.

So maybe I fell for the scheme of false advertising when you say the word "debate". Perhaps you should consider changing the label for what you do. Instead of saying "Let's have a debate on someone's socionics type", you should say "Let's have a manipulation war to see who can "win" by making the other person look like a worthless human being while using words related to the topic of socionics type" Because then I, and many others would simply say "no thanks - my goal here is to improve my understanding of socionics, maybe I'll come back and play the manipulation war game after I've had some beers and don't care about learning something".

[Steve]

Why? Because you realized how silly you look prancing around in the "Si flow of your essence"? If you're trying to allude to some attitude you think I have towards Se, try again. I actually understand Se - it's strengths and weakness. You just idealize the fuck out of Si and come up with embellished descriptions to make it seem more abstract/special than it is.

I guess that's how it comes across to you. Oh well.

[strrrng]

I already told you. My "reasoning" were my subjective impressions, which I was not asking anyone to blindly follow. They asked my opinion and I gave it. I shouldn't have to repeat this again.

Typically when you bring something up, people ask "why." If you can't answer that question, don't bring it up. Simple.

I already said I had no concrete reasoning - it was based in subjective impression, which obviously isn't concretely debatable, but as I said above, I was not forcing it on anyone, nor did I need to debate anyone with it, so whatever "lack of reasoning" there was was already exposed.

So then don't fucking throw it out there. You realize that if you have no reasoning, your opinion means shit. And actually, if you bring up an idea/argument that goes against what someone thinks, they're entitled to debate you about it. It's not their fault you have no reasoning, and when you try to evade a debate after tossing some subjective bullshit out there, don't complain when people get pissed.

Of course, I would have debated it publicly if I had more than vibes to explain my position because obviously other people likely wont be seeing through Steve subjective impressions. But since I didn't have any more than vibes, I of course preferred not to debate it publicly, as it would go nowhere.

Exactly - you didn't want it to brought to public attention because it would make you look stupid. Again, it's not our fault you can't come up with a logical argument.

There's no high horse. It all comes down to the points made above. There is no point in debating publicly over something that's based primarily off of subjective impressions. As you correctly mentioned above, if I had more than subjective vibes to go by, I would have gladly debated it publicly. It came as a surprise though, that you, knowing that all I had was subjective impressions, attempted to engage in debate with me. I'm not sure why, because certainly, you must have realized (from the point you made above) that debating over subjective impressions is pointless, so the fact that you chose to push forward with the debate led me to believe that you had other intentions - specifically, trying to humiliate/discredit me.

No, there is no point in BRINGING IT UP if all you have to substantiate the claim is some subjective vibes. Save those for a fucking diary entry, not a logical discussion. And yes, part of me did want to make you see how silly your position was, so I called you out on it. Big deal. It's not my fault your ego can't handle it. Next time use some logic and we won't have this problem.

Conflict for the sake of conflict is just stupid imo, and I think most would agree. On the other hand I think any person would engage in conflict if it was necessary.

Who said I wanted conflict for the sake of conflict? It came with the argument. You are completely conflict averse.

I simply prefer debating environments where people are consistent in their reasoning, do not attempt at ad-hominem, and where people listen to the other people. This is how I define debate: sound reasoning, listening, and personal respect.

See, now you're contradicting yourself. If you prefer others to have sound reasoning, why do you promote positions without having sound reasoning yourself? And yes, I realize you weren't trying to impose your opinion on anyone, but bringing it up in itself warrants the other person to ask "why" and engage in casual inquiry. Maybe you should start heeding your own rule.

[strrrng]

I guess that's how it comes across to you. Oh well.

Me and about every other member of the forum who has listened to you talk about anything Si-related, lol.

[Steve]

Typically when you bring something up, people ask "why." If you can't answer that question, don't bring it up. Simple.

Some people are open to hearing subjective impressions, and even offer their own in response. You in particular have preferred this style of discussion for the 6+ months I've known you, and it came as a surprise when you suddenly began acting averse to it. Had I known that you were averse to sharing subjective, image-type impressions, or had I been in a coma for the last 6+ months, I certainly would have not have offered my impressions to you, the same way I stopped offering my image-oriented way of describing things to Niffweed, Implied, or anyone else that I am aware is averse to them.

[strrrng]

Some people are open to hearing subjective impressions, and even offer their own in response. You in particular have preferred this style of discussion for the 6+ months I've known you, and it came as a surprise when you suddenly began acting averse to it. Had I known that you were averse to sharing subjective, image-type impressions, or had I been in a coma for the last 6+ months, I certainly would have not have offered my impressions to you, the same way I stopped offering my image-oriented way of describing things to Niffweed, Implied, or anyone else that I am aware is averse to them.

Using the only card you have left ?

There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between sharing subjective/imagery impressions about DAILY OBSERVATIONS and using them in an ARGUMENT. So, don't project your own shitty, Si vibe-based argument style onto me. I come up with logical explanations for viewpoints I want to debate (if I don't want to debate, I'll just say 'fuck you'). So stop bringing up old conversations and shit, trying to guilt trip me, as if every time I talked to you about anything remotely logical, I would say "hey steve, this is my vibe" and you would say "I totally agree" - NO. That's bullshit, you and I both know it. In a fucking argument, you use logic. Period. If you want to bring up old conversations, why don't you mention times where we've debated typings or aspects of functions; there was logic there. Sorry, but I'm not letting you abscond from this argument with your Ti convolutions of the situation.

[07490]

these drama are so stupid, please, lets do something else instead.

[strrrng]

these drama are so stupid, please, lets do something else instead.

Suck a dick. No one asked for your commentary. Go come up with some magical visions through your omniscient Ni

[Steve]

And yes, part of me did want to make you see how silly your position was, so I called you out on it. Big deal.

So then I ask why? What's the motivation? Something I've learned from experience is that people only react with energy to things that they have stake in, or are invested with. Say someone who is on a delicate income lives in Florida, and they hear in the news that taxes were just raised in Minnesota, they likely won't give a shit, whereas if taxes were hiked in their own state of Florida, they'll likely care quite a bit.

So why do you care so much that I need to be made to look silly, or ridiculous? I would guess that most people around here do not care if I'm made out to look silly, or care if I slip and fall, make a fool out of myself, or look less mighty. But you seem to care quite a bit, to a point where it seems like a fixation and even a mission, and I'm trying to figure out why. I can't help but attribute it to some sort of insecurity, as if ruining MY "image" is necessary for preserving your own. So what "image" of your own are you so craving to preserve? Who can say. It could be the idealized Se-noble warrior who must be right at all times, never show weakness, and champion "noble" causes. It could be the idealized sx-intensity violent love vyvanse escapade. Who knows, but whatever it is, it's sure taking up a lot of your time and energy trying to justify, both to yourself and to other people (see your recent signatures and stickam banter).

It appears as if I represent the antithesis of this idealism, because during the time you've known me, you've always seen me as a grounded, level headed, somewhat cautious individual, while you saw yourself as the one getting "swept away into the black hole", as you once put it, and lost from concrete reality, not knowing limits with certain things. Things seemed to be going just fine, until...

You felt the need to put me to the test (of your images). You had been hanging with two different types of people. Me on one hand representing composure, groundedness, stability, etc, and Ashton on the other, representing a more recklessness, charging, unstable side. You recently felt that these two images could not coexist within you, that you had to choose SOME external image to attach yourself to; SOME external identity you could consider "real" to you. So you chose the Ashton-like image, because that one was the easiest choice since it offered an immediate emotional high, but in truth was nothing more than a phantom of idealism. You then decided to put that image and the image I represent in direct combat with one another, hoping that one would win and one would lose (very similar to trying to side with one parent's point of view and having both parents argue over it, hoping your sided-parent wins). You hoped that the external battle would do the work for you in "deciding your identity", so that you wouldn't have to face your own crisis internally, which is ultimately the true place for getting direction.

I brought up the point earlier that people only respond to things they're so invested in, and how you seem so fixated on trying to prove me wrong, or "ruin my image" in your mind. By trying to discredit me personally publicly comes the hopeful added potential of other people jumping on the bandwagon of "Steve's full of shit, no-one should listen to him", thus providing you with yet another band-aid of external justification that you've chosen the right "image" to side with, which is seen in statements like this:

Me and about every other member of the forum who has listened to you talk about anything Si-related, lol.

But a band-aid doesn't heal the wound; that's something you have to do yourself from within.

So my suggestion is to find your real identity from within, and not depend on attaching to an external idealization, because continuing the way things have been so far isn't getting you anywhere, and it's just going to isolate you.

[strrrng]

So why do you care so much that I need to be made to look silly, or ridiculous? I would guess that most people around here do not care if I'm made out to look silly, or care if I slip and fall, make a fool out of myself, or look less mighty. But you seem to care quite a bit, to a point where it seems like a fixation and even a mission, and I'm trying to figure out why. I can't help but attribute it to some sort of insecurity, as if ruining MY "image" is necessary for preserving your own. So what "image" of your own are you so craving to preserve? Who can say. It could be the idealized Se-noble warrior who must be right at all times, never show weakness, and champion "noble" causes. It could be the idealized sx-intensity violent love vyvanse escapade. Who knows, but whatever it is, it's sure taking up a lot of your time and energy trying to justify, both to yourself and to other people (see your recent signatures and stickam banter).

I don't care about making you look silly; that is by no means any goal of mine. I simply want to call you out on your bullshit. It has nothing to do with Se or violent love...wtf...an inside joke between me and Allie? Yeah, get over yourself. My recent signature was from a quote allie pasted from a vyvanse forum, dumbass...and again, it's an inside joke that doesn't involve you...as for stickam banter...I called you out once and you ignored it. I am by no means expending any more energy on you than anything else on this forum.

It appears as if I represent the antithesis of this idealism, because during the time you've known me, you've always seen me as a grounded, level headed, somewhat cautious individual, while you saw yourself as the one getting "swept away into the black hole", as you once put it, and lost from concrete reality, not knowing limits with certain things. Things seemed to be going just fine, until...

You felt the need to put me to the test (of your images). You had been hanging with two different types of people. Me on one hand representing composure, groundedness, stability, etc, and Ashton on the other, representing a more recklessness, charging, unstable side. You recently felt that these two images could not coexist within you, that you had to choose SOME external image to attach yourself to; SOME external identity you could consider "real" to you. So you chose the Ashton-like image, because that one was the easiest choice since it offered an immediate emotional high, but in truth was nothing more than a phantom of idealism. You then decided to put that image and the image I represent in direct combat with one another, hoping that one would win and one would lose (very similar to trying to side with one parent's point of view and having both parents argue over it, hoping your sided-parent wins). You hoped that the external battle would do the work for you in "deciding your identity", so that you wouldn't have to face your own crisis internally, which is ultimately the true place for getting direction.

Did I though? tbh I just started to see things from a new perspective, and thus, was fairly repulsed by the subjective nature of your debating style. big deal. So I called you out on it, and thus shit started. There wasn't a conflict between you and ashton WTF...I have always had friends with different qualities...who I choose to prioritize/ignrore/etc has nothing to do with some internal conflict about them. I have always liked different traits in you and Ashton, so fuck off with that lol.

I brought up the point earlier that people only respond to things they're so invested in, and how you seem so fixated on trying to prove me wrong, or "ruin my image" in your mind. By trying to discredit me personally publicly comes the hopeful added potential of other people jumping on the bandwagon of "Steve's full of shit, no-one should listen to him", thus providing you with yet another band-aid of external justification that you've chosen the right "image" to side with, which is seen in statements like this:

I talked about the jadae shit because I thought it was pathetic and that you deserved to be exposed for your underhanded bullshit. Fuck what other people think, I know you're full of shit. You're socially manipulative, only in the most diplomatic way.

But a band-aid doesn't heal the wound; that's something you have to do yourself from within.

So my suggestion is to find your real identity from within, and not depend on attaching to an external idealization, because continuing the way things have been so far isn't getting you anywhere, and it's just going to isolate you.

ugh, now I see why Gilly got pissed at you for your little dr. phil insight in his thread before. Don't presume to know shit. This isn't about idealizing external things, and how the fuck do you know where I am or am not getting with anything? you're making assumptions that serve put you up on some noble 6 plateau. This is idiotic.

[strrrng]

Steve, since the situation you brought up (being complete bs imo the whole way) with allie and various arguments causing conflict, involves ashton, I'm pasting his response to some of your claims. I think he doesn't particularly care to interact with you, but he seemed to think you were skewing the situation horribly. So, here.

Last monday night/tues morning or so I believe it was, I had a conversation with both Allie and Ashton about what I thought Allie's enneagram/socionics type was, which was initiated by them. I presented to both of them reasons for why I thought Allie was what she was, and they gave me some reasons as to why they thought she was something different, and I wasn't convinced, and neither were they. At that point, it didn't seem like either of us were going to get any further discussing it at the time, so I wasn't going to argue it anymore - there was no need (I could live with the supposed delusion that I had of Allie's type). Both Allie and Ashton should feel secure enough in their typings that they don't need my approval or try to convince me that their typings are correct. I'm pretty sure you believe in the same philosophy of someone either being open to an idea or not? I'm pretty sure in a recent post of yours that you said that you wish not to impose your typings on people - if they choose not to accept your opinion that's their choice.

Steve, I never had a conversation with you about any of that. So, either you're lying or you plain don't remember that we didn't have a conversation about this. And if you are lying about it - why bother? I don't get it, what do you stand to gain? The only real communication you and I have had in recent history was a brief discussion your Ti post, which occurred only because I accidentally unblocked you on AIM after keeping you blocked for many months. And I kept you blocked because I think you're an untrustworthy individual, so I'd rather not deal with you.

Then, 30 seconds later, Ashton IMs me wishing to discuss Allie's socionics type further. My last line of conversation with him had ended ten minutes earlier.

No Steve, there was no "discussing further" because you and I had never discussed it at all. I heard you had an opinion though, and I was morbidly curious about it, and probably foraying around for mindless stimulation as usual.

[01:32] Ashton: Oh yeah
[01:32] *** Auto-response sent to Ashton: I am currently away from the computer.
[01:32] Ashton: I think Allie might be Se-ISFj.
[01:36] *** You have been disconnected. Tue Aug 19 01:36:15 2008.

10 minutes prior to that entry, the only communication we had was a very short, sparse conversation regarding your Ti post. I could post the log, timestamps all, but what would be the point? Preceding that, there was no discussion between you and I about anybody's type, nor has there been for a very long time for the reason I already mentioned above.

Anyway, you struck me as being peculiarly avoidant to the topic. Which annoyed me, because I couldn't understand why someone would be so passively-evasive about something like that. You went on and offline multiples times too after I'd asked the question, so I doubt it was simply a matter of you not being there. And you were talking on Stickam, so...

Maybe Ashton wasn't around when I explained to Allie in the chat or on IM why I didn't think she was Se ISFj.

You just said I was. Make up your mind!

I guess he doesn't talk with Allie that often so he's out of the loop sometimes.

No I don't, you are correct on that count. But regardless, I don't think I'm out of the loop either - and definitely not so relative to the outlandishness I see you spewing.

If he still wishes to know why I think she's not Se ISFj, he can know that my typing is based from numerous subjective impressions I've had of her and how I see the impressions fitting in with the theory, similar to the kind of subjective impressions he states he uses to type people. But of course with subjective impressions, there will sometimes be difference of opinion, which of course cannot be resolved by logical debate, since the opinions are formed by subjective impressions. So, until I have a leap of insight, I'm still in Steve perceptions, and not in Ashton/Allie perceptions, so this is a point in the road where one of my type perceptions differs from theirs, and it'll have to be left at that for now.

Don't be so quick to give yourself a gold star there lol. For instance, I did see the 3 argument you presented later on that you've railed decisively on about being true, and it wasn't nearly as thorough of a rationale as you're making pretense about here. You pasted a brief profile description of Sx 3 and concluded it fit perfectly... that, was it. Furthermore, I also found out that it was apparently Jadae's argument, not your's. Why Jadae was even bothering to speculate about it at all I'm not sure, since he doesn't know a terrible lot about Enneagram and he's never seemed to care all that much about it. But I know you're pretty gullible and you have a habit of sucking up... and knowing Jadae for the manipulative SOB he is, I figure he's immensely entertained playing you off as a useful idiot. Remember what I said about cat toys, Steve?

Then, in the following days on stickam, Ashton and Allie, and even yourself chose to initiate me in debate further on her type, after I had already provided my reasoning, and recognized we had a difference in perceptions, which couldn't be reasonably resolved by "logical debate".

I don't remember her trying to initiate you in a debate, but maybe I wasn't there? When I was around, tbh she struck me as not caring that much about your argument and thought your conclusion was absurd. So absurd even, to the point that it became a baffling intrigue that anyone would actually believe what it is you proclaimed.

I only tried to engage with you once, because I wanted to know wtf was going on lol. Since I suspected you were being avoidant, I thought a more brazen approach might yield some answers out of it. Also by that time I'd heard the down-low on where the argument originally descended from, so I was enthusiastically wanting more information on how/why this came about because it just all sounded really odd lol. It quickly became obvious you weren't going to say a word to me though, and that you really were being avoidant. Which has just made me disgusted with you ever since.

Again, you don't need my validation to know that a type is correct.

I'd never ask for it. Not from you, believe me lol.

And I just had a hunch that you were spewing bullshit about that situation?? Damn.

[Expat]

Since I was mentioned, I will confirm that Jadae did ask implied to contact me via e-mail, saying one or two things that fit the context of what has been discussed here. My first immediate thought was that it was some sort of prank. Since I have no interest at all in having any kind of contact with him - much less in letting him have any contact details of mine - I simply ignored it. Moreover, the "problem" he supposedly wanted my help with was something I couldn't care less about, and anyway I had already heard something about it.

[Ezra]

Honour among thieves indeed.

lol @ u bertrand. You appear once in a blue moon to post something completely mundane in the style of Bertrand Russell.

[Hitta]

Steve, since the situation you brought up (being complete bs imo the whole way) with allie and various arguments causing conflict, involves ashton, I'm pasting his response to some of your claims. I think he doesn't particularly care to interact with you, but he seemed to think you were skewing the situation horribly. So, here.


































And I just had a hunch that you were spewing bullshit about that situation?? Damn.

Are you kidding me? Ashton thinks everything is "skewing the situation horribly". There is like absolutely nothing for him that isn't doing that. Ashton likes to start shit with people.

[tcaudilllg]

I've come to think that the form of fake Fe differs depending on the political philosophy of the person. I think that people on the Left interpret interpret fake Fe as sending a signal of false-acceptance; I think people on the Right interpret it as rejecting that which they really approve of. I think another contrast lies in the way some people express false emotion in a situation to become accepted by the group which genuinely has it; or feign indifference to a cause which they are infact quite moved by.

[Ezra]

Ashton likes to start shit with people.

So does strrrng. And he admits it.

[strrrng]

So does strrrng. And he admits it.

lol.