Dislike of Enneagram type 3

[unefille]

I know this isn't really an enneagram focused board (but I can't handle the layout of the enneagram institute discussion board), but from the comments I've read generally, 3s are seen as pretty unpalatable human beings.

Reading the 'who is your enneagram dual' thread, 7s and 8s seemed to very popular types. 4s, 6s, 9s and 2s also get a look in. Then, of course, the board explodes into another Phaedrus-duel-to-the-death and everything goes a bit off course. 1s are also pretty unpopular, but since I'm not a 1 and am a 3, I thought I'd focus the thread on something I cared more about.

What makes you dislike (if hate is too strong) the E3?

Is it their emotional disconnect? Their ruthless self-obsession? Their narcissistic tendencies? I'm curious. And maybe I'll be a 'typical' 3, revel in negative feedback, hurt, and then use it to refine my self-image (or my image, or my self, or whatever). I actually have some problems reconciling being an IEE and a 3w4 sometimes, but I'm so certain I'm both. Do 3s somehow seem less than human? Less authentic, more robotic and thus sub-human/in-human? I sometimes get that impression...

[Expat]

I neither dislike nor do I hate 3s any more than I do other enneatypes; but what does put me off about them is the need for validation from others; as in, what you've achieved or not is dependent on the recognition by others, or lack thereof. I see that as being a bit of a lightweight.

[machintruc]

All Threes are untrustworthy liars

[unefille]

I neither dislike nor do I hate 3s any more than I do other enneatypes; but what does put me off about them is the need for validation from others; as in, what you've achieved or not is dependent on the recognition by others, or lack thereof. I see that as being a bit of a lightweight.

Ah, I can see that.

I have no intention to suck up right now, but it's something I've admired in 8w9s specifically since my BF is one: the conviction in their chosen course of action. Given that she's my bedrock of support, she's never said anything disparaging to me, but I think its hard for her (and maybe 8s generally) to understand the degree of second-guessing that goes on in my head. External recognition is at least concrete and easily located and locked down.

The lack of internal compass is something that the Enneagram doesn't actually solve for 3s, it seems to me. At the higher levels and integrating to 6, the 3 simply replaces their self-concern with a genuine concern for others; ties themselves to communal interests instead of their own. To me, becoming 'self-accepting' isn't the same thing as locating an internal sense of surety, so I guess that certainty in one's self is something outside of the 3s experience, whether healthy or not.

All Threes are untrustworthy liars

Ah, of course!

[Darkstar]

are you a little girl?

btw, I think I might be a three, I have to look into it further though.

[unefille]

are you a little girl?

btw, I think I might be a three, I have to look into it further though.

Yes. [?] I mean, I'm not little anymore... Are you referring to the name 'unefille'?

[Expat]

understand the degree of second-guessing that goes on in my head. External recognition is at least concrete and easily located and locked down.

That was a very clear way of explaining it, I think. It makes sense.

[Ezra]

Allegedly, Eights are meant to despise Threes because they are not genuine, and because they go against everything the Eight stands for, which is truth and justice.

Personally, I see the troubles Threes have had to put up with, which has definitely been enhanced by my reading about them in The Wisdom of the Enneagram. I have a lot of sympathy for them. Generally, I have one good Three friend. What I love about him is the fact that we both share a strong drive and an ambitious nature. His lies I find amusing; like when he charms girls in bars by lying about his age and pursuits. At the end of the day, I myself could never do that, but he clearly can, and I'm not going to stop him just because he wants to have a little fun with the opposite sex. When I'm around him, there's always something to do or talk about, and I really like this. He's introduced me to a lot of people, which is another admirable trait. I do think he's probably an EIE, and I've often thought about possible duality.

The other Three in my life is my grandfather, who still manages to charm the shit out of everyone, but not with lies. He uses genuine charisma. He's a fantastic conversationalist, and he is always task-bound. This pisses my 4w5 father off, who finds his father's attitude dominating. I can generally dig it though. I don't hate my grandfather, but when he plays the shame game and sends my father or me on a guilt trip, he can become quite infuriating. I think he's an EIE as well.

[unefille]

Allegedly, Eights are meant to despise Threes because they are not genuine, and because they go against everything the Eight stands for, which is truth and justice.

That's interesting. I wonder why? I mean, I don't consciously uphold truth and justice, but the 8s I know don't seem to do so either. I suppose they do have a concrete idea of some 'rightness' they want to serve.

I get that deceit is the sin of the 3, but as far as I've experienced it, it's always been more self-deceit, with deceit of others being incidental to that self-deception. It's almost something I can't control: the presentation of myself in the best possible light. Even when I'm trying to get people see the negative aspects of my life, I can't help it coming out in a way that makes it in fact sound grand and wonderful and not at all bad. I don't intentionally mean to mislead anyone - I do use lies strategically sometimes, but not often - but it's almost not something I can consciously control. It's almost as though on the subconscious level, I'm thinking oh god if they really knew how bad things are, they'll never look at you the same way again and this self-preservation mechanism kicks in.

That said, I can and will lie convincingly, and without flinching, if I deem it necessary. I just try not to, as much as possible, both for pragmatic reasons (lies make life so complicated) and for principle (what I have of it).

[Park]

what does put me off about them is the need for validation from others; as in, what you've achieved or not is dependent on the recognition by others, or lack thereof. I see that as being a bit of a lightweight.

In my opinion, everyone has that need, only in different ways and quantities. Maybe that's why that's not something that puts me off about them.

[unefille]

how are you not EIE?

i'm also rather curious. how aren't you EIE?

Hm, why am I not my quasi-identical? My first reaction would be that I've never identified with Beta at all. I don't find their values abhorrent, just exhausting. Whenever I'm reading through the Beta forum, I have my eyes wide open, sort of like someone discovering a whole new world.

I've suspected I can come off like an EIE sometimes (though machintruc thinks I'm SEE and that's very new to me), but my response (possibly a rather superficial response) is that I have to. Who is going to put someone who comes of like a typical IEE in charge of several well-funded student committees? A lot of people in positions of 'power' within the university/college structure are Beta, since they naturally tend toward hierarchies (I mean within the elected student structures). If I can't seem EIE-ish when dealing with them, why would an SLE ever nominate me for a chair position? Betas don't exactly seem to have the greatest opinion of Deltas - at best, we seem warm and fuzzy, at worst, we seem stupid and incompetent, especially IEEs. In my ideal world, I don't value Se or Ti and I would not attempt to master these functions. But I don't live in an ideal world and to succeed in this one, Se and Ti and Ni and Fe seem necessary and useful.

Um, not sure if that was the greatest answer. Probably not. Would you mind telling me why you think I'm EIE and I'll come up with a more cogent response after I finish writing my paper?

[aestrivex]

Um, not sure if that was the greatest answer. Probably not. Would you mind telling me why you think I'm EIE and I'll come up with a more cogent response after I finish writing my paper?

you are remarkably image focused. you naturally seem not to realize that other people do not pay as much attention to their outward perceptions or their emotional effects as you do. this alone is remarkable evidence for EIE and beta. your content such as in this thread have largely been socially focused and are similar in character to the sort of philosophical interests and Ni+Ti+Fe prophetic mode of speaking that we have all come to know and love from EIEs.

[unefille]

you are remarkably image focused.

Yes I am. My mother is EIE 1w2. I am an only child and I had a very 'unique' childhood. Until I was 7, I lived with my mother and her family. From the age of 7 onward, we moved to Australia and for the first few years, I had no friends. My parents didn't socialise much. My world was insular, my father distant with work and my mother ruled my world.

Every time we met someone, she would mention what they thought of me, how they interpreted my behaviour. After every performance or recital, the first words out of her mouth would be 'you were fidgeting', 'you didn't make enough eye contact', 'you need to project your presence more.' If I went to a birthday party, her words to me when I got home was 'did anyone tell you that you were pretty?' and 'what did they think of your new dress?' Because my mother watched me so closely and scrutinised me so thoroughly, I've essentially appropriated her gaze myself. I think the entire world watches me closely and evaluates me constantly, because my mother did and does and because, until my teenage years, she essentially was my world.

But whilst I've appropriated some of her values, they aren't mine naturally. They had to be beaten into me (not always literally beating, of course). I still disagree with them, but I have internalised them. Which is why in my ideal world, I am a different person to the one I am now, because for me, the world is a Beta world - in that Beta values are what I am most conscious of, what I most easily anticipate. Since I can't change the world I find myself in, I have to adapt. The essence of the 3 is shame (I am wrong for this world) and the strategy is deceit and adaptation.

Thank god for the anonymity of the internet.

you naturally seem not to realize that other people do not pay as much attention to their outward perceptions or their emotional effects as you do. this alone is remarkable evidence for EIE and beta. your content such as in this thread have largely been socially focused and are similar in character to the sort of philosophical interests and Ni+Ti+Fe prophetic mode of speaking that we have all come to know and love from EIEs.

I don't assume that other people are as image conscious or as aware of social dynamics as I am, but I think they should be more image conscious and aware of social dynamics, coming at it from a perspective that I've learned to be, not that I naturally am. I think how people act is generally not of anyone's concern, but when we're acting for a purpose, we should be strategic in the pursuit of that purpose. You might be a genius inventor, but you're not going to get anywhere in life if you can't convince other people of the brilliance of your ideas. Socially, there is a game being played. As distasteful as we might find it, you have to learn the rules of the game. I would never look down at people who don't play the game though, I just sometimes think they're hindering themselves.

I didn't always have a lot of friends growing up. I was a loner (both because I the only non-white kid in school and also because of personality differences). It was from the outside looking in that I realised why I wasn't more popular, why I wasn't more of a 'success'. I was quiet, with a single good friend, who never fought with me and the teachers praised us for being so. But it was also the girls who fought and laughed loudly and formed little cliques conspiring against each other who seemed to be more socially successful. So, I learned to do what was necessary to get by, to get what I wanted. Putting on Fe is like putting on armor - it gets you through dangerous situations, it's a bit burdensome, but eventually you get used to it.

As for Ti and Ti POLR: I've always been punished and punished myself for my own weaknesses. My thoughts always form a jumble initially and then I sit down and pry them apart and arrange them neatly and coherently. I see other people use Ti and value Ti, so I want to be able to produce Ti for them so that they will also value me. Same with the other functions, to varying degrees. I'm obsessed with my POLR. I studied maths and economics and am still studying law and part of the language is Ti. Sure, I can access it in other ways, but 3s are adaptative and efficient, aren't they? And it's more effective and efficient if I speak Ti to people who value and use Ti. And Te to those who value Te. And so on and so forth.

Lastly, my social awareness usually manifests in one-to-one relations, where I determine how each individual feels about me and then adapt myself to responding to that individual bond. That's...difficult, if not impossible to do on an internet forum. Fe is much more effective, but I don't use it more than I need do.

[Gilly]

I neither dislike nor do I hate 3s any more than I do other enneatypes; but what does put me off about them is the need for validation from others; as in, what you've achieved or not is dependent on the recognition by others, or lack thereof. I see that as being a bit of a lightweight.

Yeah...I can see how this would seem "pathetic" to others. However, personally, I can see it being a strength, because ultimately it means that the only thing they need to keep going, no matter how bad it gets, is other people.

I get that deceit is the sin of the 3, but as far as I've experienced it, it's always been more self-deceit, with deceit of others being incidental to that self-deception. It's almost something I can't control: the presentation of myself in the best possible light. Even when I'm trying to get people see the negative aspects of my life, I can't help it coming out in a way that makes it in fact sound grand and wonderful and not at all bad. I don't intentionally mean to mislead anyone - I do use lies strategically sometimes, but not often - but it's almost not something I can consciously control. It's almost as though on the subconscious level, I'm thinking oh god if they really knew how bad things are, they'll never look at you the same way again and this self-preservation mechanism kicks in.

Ahahaha...this is so true. Even when I tell people about all the fucked up times in my life (drug addiction, rehab, depression) I always end up painting it in the best possible light. Now, that's partly because I've come to see all of my experiences as positive, because I like where I am in life. But it's also because, subconsciously, I want people to be like "Oooo, ahhh...he has so much life experience! Maybe I can learn something from this wise 20 year old...he has had such an interesting and varied life!" so I invariably end up telling stories like how, at school, I didn't know who I could trust, how I was empty inside, how I wasn't getting anywhere...but by the way I was living an incredibly extravagant lifestyle and got pretty much everything i wanted and everyone thought I was a big shot And of course rehab was very sobering, and I learned a lot about myself and came to terms with how fucked up I had been acting...but by the way I was totally the ringleader and everyone liked me and a good time was had by all

That said, I can and will lie convincingly, and without flinching, if I deem it necessary. I just try not to, as much as possible, both for pragmatic reasons (lies make life so complicated) and for principle (what I have of it).

See, I won't even bat an eyelash to lie if I know it will benefit me and (when healthy) it's not going to hurt anyone else. When the time comes, I usually make a snap evaluation of what the effect with be on the situation: how likely I am to get caught lying, whether this person seems naive or not, how believable my first idea for a lie is, other possible explanations, how I can worm my way out of whatever tricky situation is liable to present itself if something relating to my lie comes into question...I am a fucking master liar, even if I don't do it much any more.

[Expat]

Yeah...I can see how this would seem "pathetic" to others. However, personally, I can see it being a strength, because ultimately it means that the only thing they need to keep going, no matter how bad it gets, is other people.

Does it mean, though, that which "other people" is dependent on how bad it gets?

I mean something like this.

1) You feel like king of the world among a certain crowd, because you feel that they recognize your achievements and it validates you.
2) You suffer a major setback as far as those achievements are concerned. That crowd doesn't say anything, but you feel diminished in their eyes.
3) In order to "bounce back", you move to another crowd, among which your "diminished" state is seen as "very good"? Which allows you to "climb up" again?

[Gilly]

Does it mean, though, that which "other people" is dependent on how bad it gets?

I mean something like this.

1) You feel like king of the world among a certain crowd, because you feel that they recognize your achievements and it validates you.
2) You suffer a major setback as far as those achievements are concerned. That crowd doesn't say anything, but you feel diminished in their eyes.
3) In order to "bounce back", you move to another crowd, among which your "diminished" state is seen as "very good"? Which allows you to "climb up" again?

If the 3 is unhealthy, yes; obviously lots of things can go wrong. What you are describing is precisely what happened to me in college. I actually saw a movie today, Tropic Thunder, in which I believe Ben Stiller accurately portrays this kind if disintegration, which I believe could be seen as related to the complacency of an unhealthy 9.

But let's say you put a healthier 3 in an extreme circumstance: all they really need to keep going is to know that they are doing the "right thing" in the eyes of others. Lack of physical security, not being in control of the situation, being unsure of how things will turn out...the 3 can endure anything, as long as they have people who "reflect" to them that they are doing the right thing (perhaps part of why a typical EIE 3 would need an LSI 1?). Obviously things can go wrong if the whole group is misguided, in which case obviously the direction and discretion of a 1 is appreciated. But as long as there isn't mass hysteria (which, as a matter of fact, 3s, being part of the competency triad, are usually good at handling), and the 3 is in line with the wishes of the group, he can endure anything.

[unefille]

See, I won't even bat an eyelash to lie if I know it will benefit me and (when healthy) it's not going to hurt anyone else. When the time comes, I usually make a snap evaluation of what the effect with be on the situation: how likely I am to get caught lying, whether this person seems naive or not, how believable my first idea for a lie is, other possible explanations, how I can worm my way out of whatever tricky situation is liable to present itself if something relating to my lie comes into question...I am a fucking master liar, even if I don't do it much any more.

I lied a great deal more in my past, but I've learnt some sobering lessons since then. More importantly, I've learned the value of trust. Yet I make things up all the time - small lies that are more stories to keep people entertained than to deceive them, but I don't lie to people who I value and want to have in my life.

A lot of the people who I find most comforting and are closest to right now are 8s - I value them and I KNOW that they will not tolerate being lied to. That alone keeps me from Lying with a capital L most of the time. But I can't pretend to be a saint - I do twist the truth to benefit me sometimes. Lying can never be black and white for me; I make so many distinctions between the truth and falsity. And there are so many forms of lying: lying by omission, outright falsehoods, plausible deniability... I've also been been friends with some 3w2s and 3w4s who were in very unhealthy levels and just seeing their behaviour shocked me and made me re-examine my own.

Overall, what I can say is that I try to be as honest with myself and with those who I have decided to share myself with as possible.

[Christy B]

I actually have some problems reconciling being an IEE and a 3w4 sometimes, but I'm so certain I'm both.

Ya I know a female enfp 3w4 and you remind me a little bit of this girl actually. Also, coincidently the pic of the girl in your avatar, and I realize it probably isn't you, looks A LOT like this enfp 3w4.

[Suomea]

...

[unefille]

I feel like I should have titled this thread 'Understanding the Enneagram 3' instead.

Ya I know a female enfp 3w4 and you remind me a little bit of this girl actually. Also, coincidently the pic of the girl in your avatar, and I realize it probably isn't you, looks A LOT like this enfp 3w4.

She [the avatar] captures one aspect of me - the more 3ish aspect. She's sort of me when I'm in my 'fuck off, you're not worth my time' mode. That part of me is another girl. I admire her a little and I'm scared of her a little. She's not how I see myself, but she's sometimes how other people, especially those I keep at arms length, see me. A little superior, a little disdainful, a little intimidating and unimpressed at the world. Cool and collected. She's just a persona though - she's what I become when I feel attacked or vulnerable and I've tried to be myself and its not working, I slip her on like armor and it's my way of saying 'screw you, you misjudged me, I bet you didn't expect this, did you?'

I've read 3s have 'ice' when attacked. She's my ice; when I've disengaged from myself and am just focused on winning. If I have to stay in that mode too long, I become worn out and exhausted. If I had to stay in that mode for a prolonged period of time, I'm terrified I would just lose myself altogether.

The only way I can reconnect to myself (or the closest I come) is when I'm around people I trust 100% to never ever judge me by my behaviour, by the impression I make. No matter how many people I know or am 'friends' with, there are so few people I trust enough to be vulnerable and open around. They have to see me at my best (when I'm in performance mode) and not be impressed by the performance. They have to see me at my worst (when I'm falling apart and can't hold the image together) and not become repulsed by that. I feel that then, around them, they keep my grounded - more than anything, THEY are my connection to who I am; they remind me when I forget. It's so important to have that in my life - but it is so hard to have someone like that as well. I don't doubt that my current degree of health owes a lot to my friendship with idolatrie.

On a little bit closer inspection of the enneagram I think 3w2 probably fits me the best. Kinda sad because I don't really respect anything about the 3.... seems like 3s are never content with what they have.

If you don't mind, could you elaborate a little on how you see yourself as a 3w2 and what you don't respect about the 3 type?

I started the thread because I felt that a lot of people didn't like or respect the 3 type and I wanted to understand that more and to also explain some of the 3 fixations. Which means that fundamentally, I don't believe that the 3 is worthless or horrid - that there is a lot of misunderstanding concerning the type. Being a 3 is something I'm ambivalent about - there are parts of it I like - the confidence, the competency, the energy, the drive. Being image-focused can make me shallow and superficial sometimes and very insecure, but it also means I am more adept at navigating situations where politics and social dynamics can often hinder people from achieving their goals/potential. There is a lot of flaws with the 3 type, but I've come to accept that as what makes me a more interesting person, I suppose: my personal challenge in life - to let my self define my image, rather than letting my image define my self.

[Creepy-Diana]

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